Mel is speaking to Fiori about this and it is such a VITAL ISSUE that BSes seem to want to deny HERE lately. I'm bringing it out here to stress it's importance for TRUE RECOVERY.

Mimi, I am convinced that the REASON Dr Harley is so successful where others fail, is that he RECOGNIZES the addictive nature of affairs because of his background in treating alcoholics. As an alcoholic,[23 years sobriety today] I will tell you that there is no difference between an alcoholic mindset and a wayward mindset. Because of that, the only way to recover is complete and total abstinence, just the same as other addictions.

A generalized version of what I wrote to a BS whose WS works with the OW every day:

He is going into the bar every day and staring at the BEER on the counter. He thinks about that beer all the time; it remains top of mind. Instead of focusing on recovery, that beer is always on his mind because he is TRIGGERED EVERY DAY. Eventually, a weak moment [and it will come!] will collide with opportunity and he will drink the beer.

Who will be there to stop him? NO ONE. The game you are playing is the EXACT equivalent of a chronic alcoholic going into the bar every day and "testing" his sobriety. In AA, we call that an "exercise in stupidity" because it proves how stupid we are to be playing such games with our sobriety. This is exactly how relapses happen.

Being triggered every day like this - both of you - makes recovery impossible.

So, as long as you are ok with an on-again, off-again affair and the daily fear of him going to work his lover, then you will be ok. For most people, that would not be a life they would choose.

Dr. Harley, a clinical psychologist, who has been doing this for 35 years, says this about continued contact with an affair partner:


entire article here


entire article here

Another snippet from the first article I linked above:

I have a question or maybe an observation. Do people who have affairs, since they are addictive, tend to have addictive personalities and in some cases are substituting one addiction for another?

From what I have seen here, I don't think most WS' have addictive personalities. Some do, but they seem to be the exception, not the rule.

From the other thread:

Originally Posted By: TurksmomAs far as triggers I believe H when he tells me the only emotions triggered are regret, sorrow, and disgust at himself for what he's done. If these emotions were lacking, I would not believe his sincerity. Why should I? I know he's capable of lying. Very convincingly.

Turksmom, I shuddered when I read your words, because I have heard them so many times over the years in AA meetings. From people who had or were heading towards a relapse. It is a classic sign of someone who does not comprehend the power of his addiction.

They are the dangerous words of a WS who does not understand the power of his addiction and because of that, does not take precautions and remains vulnerable to a repeat.

This is why successfully recovered alcoholics do not hang out in bars. This is why you won't see recovered waywards here still in contact with their lovers. They ACCEPT they have no power over their addiction, and therefore, do not place themselves AT ITS MERCY. We SURRENDER by admitting the addiction is more powerful than us and removing ourselves. We set proper boundaries so that we are not unnecessarily faced with temptation. We don't tempt fate.

An addict that stays in proximity to his drug of choice has not surrendered. He is still under the illusion that he has POWER and continues to fight a battle he has already LOST. The only answer is to surrender by leaving the field of battle. An addict will ALWAYS LOSE so his choices are: surrender and leave with your life or continue to fight and LOSE your life.

I have been sober for 23 years TODAY. [LD: 4-27-85] I feel nothing but disgust and shame and horror about my drinking. But you know what? I know that if I hung out in bars and stared at a beer every day, those feelings of LONGING and ADDICTION can come right back and OVERWHELM my feelings of DISGUST and remorse. IN A HEARTBEAT. And I am TOO SCARED of a relapse to find out if that is true or not. I have seen other ppl play that game and I am not willing to take that chance. I am not willing to EVER take that risk. I have TOO MUCH TO LOSE.

If your H does not recognize this, he is VULNERABLE to a resumption.

All recovering alcoholics feel "regret, sorrow and disgust" about their drinking. But those feelings PALE in the face of the strong attraction we felt for alcohol. If we did not have those strong feelings, we would not have been alcoholics in the first place. If your H did not have those strong feelings, he would not have had an affair in the first place. THOSE FEELINGS CAN COME RIGHT BACK.

If we do not recognize this true fact and take necessary precautions, we will always be vulnerable to a repeat. The people who have relapses are the ones who foolishly believe they have power over their addiction and put themselves in precarious situations.

along these lines...

what if they DO have addictive personalities anyway. does that fact make ending an affair more difficult that for someone who doesn't suffer from addictive tendencies?

My H has NO OTHER ADDICTION..has always been able to drink socially with no problems, for example...

I think this made him particularly VULNERABLE, thinking he COULD NOT become ADDICTED...

I definitely believe that there is a such thing as BEING ADDICTED TO A PERSON...

Very good post Mimi. Bravo...

I would think that if a person has other addictions... alcohol, drugs, even smoking, that they would be more susceptible to an affair....

That would be a very interesting poll on this board.... A poll about your wayward spouse.... and if they have any other addiction... drugs, alcohol or tobacco. I would hypothesize that the majority of WS’s have another addiction of some kind. Or they had another addiction in the past.

Dr. Harley has mentioned that addicts tend to have more affairs than normal people. I think part of that is due to the warped state of mind of your typical addict. When you are bombed you have no inhibitions and will naturally behave in self destructive ways.

I would place smoking in the coffee, chocolate, junk food category because it is not a mind altering drug.

I can certainly attest to this. My situation is a prime example of what not to do. I kept myself stuck in withdrawal for over 2 years because I continued to work with my FOM. In those 2 years I had no desire to get back into the A, I just couldn't break free of my addiction.

After I ended the A I learned about the addiction part of it and agreed it was a huge part of it. The scary part of the addiction is during the 2 years FOM and I worked together I didn't even realize how much I was still addicted to him. We did our best to remain professional, but the addiction was still there and kept me very stuck. I couldn't get over certain aspects of the A, but couldn't figure out why. (duh). I thought I had a good handle on it, but in all reality I didn't. It wasn't until after FOM left our employer and moved out of town that I finally could get through withdrawal. I should also add it was this bad for me and I only worked about 6 days a month. I can only imagine it would be much worse for someone who works with the AP on a full-time basis.

Now every time I read where AP's are still working together I just cringe. I wasted 2 years of my time in withdrawal and at the same time for one of the years trying to rebuild my marriage. Talk about a lot of mental anguish and conflict.

My advice to everyone from a BTDT POV, a WS needs to get as far away from the AP as they can.

LC

I can only speak for myself, but I do not have any other addictions nor have I ever had any.

LC

Here comes my yabuts....

Ya but what I was trying to say is that someone who is susceptible to other addictions would also be likely to engage in an affair. Tobacco is probably one of the most addictive substances on the planet. Whether or not it is a mind altering substance is irrelevant. And... my doctor told me that smoking contributes to (not causes) depression.

What about coffee? It has caffine in it. In high enough doses I'm sure your mind would be altered...

I have never heard of anyone getting tossed into jail for driving under the influence of Starbucks coffee. I do know there is evidence that alcoholics are more likely to engage in affairs because their minds are altered from their drug of choice. I would be hard pressed to believe the same thing about smokers because their minds are not altered.

When I was a smoker, it never occurred to me to CHEAT, STEAL, LIE, drive wreck-fully (what the heck does wreckLESS mean, anyway). It just occurred to me that I needed to pick up smokes on the way home from work...

I never notice people becoming more touchy feely when they smoke, but when the booze starts flowin', well, it's a different experience. Let's just say that PWC didn't really want to talk to me anymore UNLESS he was halfway drunk, and then he was crackin the jokes and talkin about his favorite subject, WORK. Ew. Now, in his case, I really do believe he switched one addiction for another, probably as a way to AVOID. He may not even drink as much when *I'm* not around, because the pressure is off. I wouldn't know, though, because I'm not around.

lifechoice, I am so glad you weighed in with your story because it exemplifies exactly what Dr Harley says about nc! If you feel so inclined, fiori over here Can I trust my instincts NOW?? could greatly benefit from reading your post.

Hope you are doing well, it's great to see you!

ML,

Things are going very well.

Congratulations on 23 years of sobriety.

I reposted my reply to Fiori on her thread. Thanks for pointing it out.

LC

Great posts and information Mel.

I totally agree that having an affair is an addiction because I've seen it in the behavior that my husband is exhibiting. He comes from a family of alcoholics and gamblers. In fact he had a gambling problem himself which I always found out about because the bank manager would call to tell me that checks were going to bounce because there wasn't enough money in our account. When we went over the account the would be withdrawals from the account at ATM's in casinos. I also found out that he had made cash advances from a credit card that we had paid off and he told me he closed. I discovered this when my purse was stolen and I put in a fraud alert to the 3 credit reporting agencies. My credit report had not only that credit card but others with me as either an authorized user or co-responsible for the account and his work address as the mailing address for the bills. His new addiction is now the women in the town where he works away from home because they stroke him emotionally. About the only emotional need that I hope they aren't satisfying is his sexual need because until I found out he got all that he wanted when he made trips home on weekends. I did find out that he was buying flowers (red roses) with cards signed "love" and would take them to concerts and other activities in the town where he works. When I did find out about the affair with one of the women I sent her a birthday card with a hand written note about how happy I was that he had such good friends that helped keep his mind focussed on work instead of missing his wife and children. She blew up at him because he wasn't truthful with her about being married and I also spilled the beans about his other girlfriend in the previous town where he worked. At 50 something I believe he's having midlife crisis and doesn't really know what he wants. He tells me he still loves me but he isn't in love with me. He also calls me almost to the point of tears when he blows up and has an AO after just telling me that he never wants to talk to me again. I don't even have to beg him to talk to me again because he feels so guilty that he has hurt me that he calls me first. I believe that he knows what he's doing is wrong but he doesn't know how to stop. I'm going to try being honest with him about how I feel and pray that he is able to do the same. The other person in the affair does just enough emotionally that is causes the same excitement that happens when an addict drinks, does drugs or gambles. It's very difficult to overcome this

I have been thinking about this and I have a question about the feelings involved in an affair.

My impression is that the affair partners are high on hormones from infatuation. But how can an affair go on for years in that case?

Most romantic relationships start out as infatuation but the hormone rush will wear off after a few months and either the relationship ends or it turns into a long term relationship and in some cases marriage. Is it the secrecy that keeps the affair partners addicted to each other or maybe that they are not living a real life together?

In that case plan B makes perfect sense, when the infatuation starts fading and the affair partners realize that the other person was not perfect or maybe not even nice the affair ends.

I also believe that even if the "feelings" in an affair resemble those of a healthy romantic relationship, the affair relationship will have a flaw from the start with all its betrayal and deceit. Most infatuation never leads to long term relationships and an affair should have even a smaller chance.

ML,

I just celebrated 21 years of sobriety.

You have accomplished something very special and I think it's awesome.

You hit on it exactly. An affair has all the very worst traits, dishonesty and thoughtlessness and selfishness. Those traits lead to its quick demise and the infidels quickly fall out of "love." Most affairs end within 2 years of exposure.

Congratulations to you, Queenie!

Thanks ML,

I realized on Friday when I got my chip that it was the first chip I had ever received for my sobriety. It was always more important to honor my H and his accomplishments.

Going through what I have been through this year, not drinking or using is nothing short than a miracle.

And I no longer take my sobriety for granted OR deny that I am blessed to have walked through this pain, clean and sober.

I read somewhere (on this site) that conflict and sacrifice can also hold an affair relationship together longer (i.e. they are giving up all this for their "love"). I also believe that pride holds them together when the rush fades and they come to realize how much they gave up and for what.

For the record, I have a very highly addictive personality. I'm hooked on smoking, junk food and caffeine and I definitely drink too much (not sure if it's an addiction yet but it could be). I avoid gambling and drugs (because I know I'll get hooked). I've been addicted to tv programs, video games and all sorts of weird things. I am the BS and it never occured to me to cheat even though my M was not anywhere close to perfect.

Congratulations Melodylane!!!! What an awesome achievement!

And Congrats to Queenie as well!!!!

My WH is an addict/alcholic and I am CONVINCED that he is actively ADDICTED if for no other reason than he is selfish, self-centered and self-destructive.

The hardest part is that if he were drinking and using through this, I think he would eventually get it that he is in trouble. But because he is sober (at least I think so), he just doesn't get it at all.

And that's scary. Because he is killing himself and there is nothing I can do for him.

I pray nightly that he ends up in the rooms of AA because then I know he will be on the road to recovery.

At least I can pray so.

It's also harder to convince others that he is actively in an addiction and thus I don't get support in my real life.

My WH wouldn't drink during the week but when we socialised on the weekends he would always get drunk..he could never drink responsibly..it caused many fights between us and he couldn't see the problem.Now he drinks every night with OP.My kids have told him they don't like it and he ignores them..

The few friends he had left don't see him either because of his drinking.OP is enabling his drinking.Surely if they are so in love they don;t need to drink like this?I used to worry about him but now his OP's problem.WH is OP's boss too so she has a lot to lose if she starts laying down the law.Its been 15 months now and I wonder how much longer this lifestyle will last.WH's dad is a heavy drinker too.

Thanks, Tabby

Thank you MelodyLane and Tabby. I think that my WH is being self destructive. Partly because of what he is doing to us, to our relation and our life together. But I think the biggest loss for him is what he is doing to himself, betraying everything which has been important to him.

When I was a teenager I behaved very badly towards my mother and it has haunted me as an adult. I know that I can't change it, I can only change what is now and hope for a good future. But I have caused damage and I can't repair it, my mother is dead. I think that is one reason why I really want to recover our marriage. I want to forgive him, I don't want to be gone when (or if) he asks for my forgiveness because I don't want him to hurt like that.

Sorry for being OT, I got a little carried away there.

Congratulations to Queenie and MelodyLane, it is wonderful that you have won your lives back!

bumped for Danilocomo11

Thanks Tabby...

I knew that I had read about affairs and addiction somewhere else! Here it is:
http://web4health.info/en/answers/life-love-switch-partner.htm

From the link:
"People with an infatuation can become as ruthless as drug addicts. Children and partners are sacrificed."
"A crush gives an inebriation very similar to the one caused by drugs. Life becomes sweeter and the crush or the drug is the most important thing in one's life. Other people may suffer."

I don't agree with everything on that website but this article has some points.

Let me say this another way....

Someone who has an addictive personality is more susceptible to having an addiction to more than one thing.... they start with smoking ... then Alcohol.... coffee... pornography... and then finally into the dark pit of.... coco beans....AKA Chocolate... LOL

Having one addiction doesn't mean you have an addictive personality... but I believe someone who does have multiple addictions is more suseptable to affairs.



While I’m on the subject of chocolate.... isn’t a bean a fruit? And isn’t chocolate made from a coco bean? Therefore chocolate is a fruit and you should have 3-5 servings a day for a balance diet....LOL

I knew someone would find me a way to having my chocolate all day long. Thanks Amazin'.

I was a smoker, for probably 8 years of my relationship with PWC. I quit, cold turkey. I didn't like it at first, it was rough. All I could think about were cigarettes and that FEELING of inhaling, not to mention that constant companion, to be brought out when I was bored, or lonely, or nervous or breathing, I could have a smoke to fill my time. The downside was that it was like a ball and chain. Most restaurants don't allow smoking, and now the bars have banned it too. I hated not being able to smoke after a meal, or ANYWHERE. I would go out, but not enjoy it, because I was obsessing over when I could take a smoke break.

Slowly, I began to withdraw, and filled my time with other things. Now, I couldn't imagine even holding a cigarette in my hand. It's so foreign to me that I ever even liked smoking. Of course, because of how addicted I was, one puff and I'm a full blown smoker again; I know I can't have just one, so I avoid them at all costs.

In that respect, I totally get how addictive affairs can be.


Now, take away my coffee and they'll be a scuffle.

I just found out this morning that I did a major Love Buster by not showing my appreciation for doing the laundry and hurting his feelings and it made such a major withdrawal from his Love Bank that in return he did everything in his power to hurt me which made major withdrawals in my Love Bank as well. I believe that his affairs are emotional rather than sexual for now (He still gets it from me & althought I haven't asked him point blank about any sexual affairs I don't think he has gone over the edge) but with his EN being satisfied by these other women & his addictive behavior I'm very concerned that it could happen. So far I believe that I can work on plan A and at least try to make deposits in his Love Bank and see if he comes around. He made up his mind that he wanted to separate from me 3 years ago mid-January when he started to travel for work but he didn't tell me of his plans & divorce only became an issue because our youngest is graduating from college this month. Hopefully he's still got somewhat of an addiction to me that he will hang on long enough that I can win him over by making major deposits in his Love Bank. I'm going to tell him that it is only fair that have more time to adjust to the idea of getting a divorce since he has had over 3 years now while I try to work on making those deposits. I know that if he doesn't give me the time that I need that I will be on plan B in no time and will probably hate him for the rest of his life for what he is doing to me and will be cordial at best whenever I see him even if it's for the sake of our daughters. Our oldest just got engaged last month to a wonderful guy who she has dated for 5 years and our youngest has been in a relationship with the same guy for 4 years.

Bump