....I meant to add that one reason for wishing to avoid divorce for as long as possible was to keep OM's hands off my money for as long as possible..and my savings would by then have been further used up...or even diverted.

LA,
A few words about DD13. I have had fewer problems since Christmas. She seems much happier now and getting on with life better...though I am sure there will still be "blips".

The best thing is that she is becoming much more involved with her pony and her "horsey" friends. And has joined in regular Horseball practice again and intends to play in the national league matches this year. At the end of the 2006 season she had given the game up...I reckon part of the effect of WW abandoning her.
I do wonder if the marital breakup had affected her almost as much as it has affected me...she does seem at last to be getting a better grip on life. I hope I am not speaking to soon!

Last summer WW told DD22 she would like some of the summer clothes still at "my" house. But never followed this up.There is still a lot of stuff here that is hers..clothes, photos, all sorts of miscellany, furniture, etc.
This evening DD13 returned after a half hour visit to WW. As usual I asked no questions but DD said she had enjoyed a huge bowl of chocolate icecream (she is still amazingly slim...and that after a huge hotpot I made her!). But she also mentioned that WW was concerned I had been "going through her things".
I have had to sort through drawers, wardrobes and cupboards and store her stuff in one place for collection. I do not want her visiting to collect anything...until she divorces...or..unlikely..actually returns. She can arrange for DD22 to collect specific items.
She has a few heirloom items of value in my strongroom. Anything she asks for can be passed on to her.
She has not set foot in the house since December 2006...and even then only the kitchen. Before that she she had not entered the house since leaving on Nov 11th 2006.
She has shown little apparent interest yet in what she has left behind...even gave ownership of her beloved cat to DD13.

Just a note to express mild concern not to have seen LA on recent threads.
There is probably not much to be said at the present re my predicament....just carrying on with life and making the best of things....especially my children, grandchildren and the horses!.
LA, you especially, have been a great help to me.

DD22 passed a letter to me today from her mum (WW).
It reads...


Dear BS,

I am hoping that you will agree to meet up for a chat, somewhere you feel comfortable, at the house, or DD22's or whatever.
There are things we need to discuss but I want it as relaxed and as pleasant as possible,
I look forward to hearing from you,

WW.

Any advice from the MB site would be appreciated.

Hi, Nagrom...

I would have your intermediary ask for an agenda...as the only way back in Plan B was what you outlined originally.

I can't remember now what you outlined...I know it was no more OM...of course, at the time, there was just the one stinkin' OM...now...well...

So there was the NC stipulation, recommitment to the marriage...what else, if anything?

See...I wouldn't talk about other things...that's it. I wouldn't meet to discuss other things...because that breaks your dark Plan B...means you didn't mean what you said about the way back.

Okay to decline, Nagrom...you know that. You already are pleasant...so you got that going for ya!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Thanks LA,
I only received WW's letter this morning but since my posting on this thread I came to a conclusion as to how I should respond.
Your advice confirms my thinking.
Thankyou.

I had another thought, as well, Nagrom...

An intermediary doesn't hand you the message...they filter it.

"WW wants a meeting with you." Distilles the essence and protects you from the garbage.

A reminder...not a condemnation.

LA

Yes LA,
I do recall you saying this before; thanks for reminding me.I will try and respond in this way.

I had made it clear to WW way back that I did not want any direct contact..letters etc. She has complied with that...till now!.

I wonder why she "needs" to discuss things now anyway?
As you say, I need an agenda.

I have also had some discussion with Lunamare in the last day or so before WW wrote to me...and posted WW's letter on her site. Her thread is one I have followed from the beginning..

I just finished reading your posts on luna's thread.

Have you told DD13 what you feel about her going behind your back in regards with WW and school? Sharing what you feel as yours...not her causing you...goes a long way to building your relationship...which is something we build every day.

You know DD13 wants her mother in her life...that she has been deeply rejected, abandoned and betrayed by her own mother. Won't make her stop wanting to have her relationship with her...don't get in the way of that.

I see you showing up at the school conference anyway. You don't address WW or chit chat...you do your thing with her...which shows DD13 that you aren't keeping WW from acting like a mother...WW's choice.

I know it's contact in a way...remains staying true to being the father, the leader, the parent in residence, doesn't it?

Could be that this is why WW wants a meeting with you, too.

Don't know.

I know that you own your own feelings...let DD13 know it, too. That you will not get in the way of her relationship...that your Plan B is about saving your marriage, not keeping her mother out of her life. Maybe that's been confusing to her...like she doesn't want to betray you or her mother...and secretly, she believes she powerful enough to change either of you.

Don't know until you speak about it. Her mother could have been at all the school functions, horse shows, etc. Her choice, not yours. You've been minding your own really well, haven't you?

LA

LA,
Thanks for the helpful comments and advice in your last few threads.
DD13 knew I was displeased by her going behind my back in regards to WW and school. But, it transpired that DD13 did not arrange anything with WW but it was obviously a ruse to avoid either of us..and her..going to the scool meeting!.

I do not get in the way at all of DD13 contacting WW and having her relationship with her...but I do ask DD13 to let me know what she is arranging and when..etc.

I am worried about meeting WW as I have not seen her for so long!.
Perhaps DD13 is trying to bring WW and I together?. But WW will not want her permanently if she remains problematic!.

This now brings me to the task of a response to WW regarding her "having a need to discuss things with me".

I have drafted a note for the intermediary DD23 to pass on in some way to WW. Things may have reached the stage where it may be more difficult for DD23 to be an intermediary...possibly why you earlier warned against it. Though it does appear others have used similar intermediaries...and as said before, DD23 is a tough cookie. Here is the draft of my note:-

To DD23,
Your role is simply as message bearer and I am grateful for that. I hope it is not becoming too difficult for you,
Love Dad.

RESPONSE TO YOUR MUM's LETTER :-

At present there there is nothing I need to discuss with her.

And at present I do not feel it a good idea to meet.

Mum (WW) could make up a list of anything she feels she "needs" to discuss. I could then consider making any necessary response for you to relay to her. I would not in any case wish to meet her without an agenda!.

I thought I had made it clear to her in letters after she left that, until she gave up her affair and tried a return to the marriage, there would be no direct contact between us.

This is not being vindictive. It provides a possibility of reconciliation or gives me time to fall completely out of love wither.

Any comments or advice would be appreciated,
please. I must respond to WW soon.

Are those last 2 paragraphs part of the message? Not sure DD23 would want to get that involved, and it's a tad defensive and/or self-justifying. JMO. Just stick to the basics.

Catperson,
Yes, the last 2 paragraphs are part of the message. I had included them to clarify and remind WW of the reason for no contact.
But I do see your point. I think you are right and I should omit them.
Thanks for the advice.

Hi N67,

I copied my reply to you below on my thread...

If you haven't already.... and you want to communicate anything to WW.... you can certainly remind her of the 'means' of communication to be used until A ends...

...and as Cat says...stick to the basics, using intermediary:

- use intermediary only
- make a list in writing
- you will get back to her in writing

It may take a while to sink in a WS's head that plan B is to be taken seriously....

Even after over 2 years.... my WS still finds the odd 'excuse' to contact me (usually over the boys).... one could say that there is a big gap in perception when evaluating what is an 'emergency'!

You'll be fine, N67. Remember to take care of yourself.

Luna

Thanks Lunamare,
Your advice and comments much appreciated.

I assume DD22 must have passed my message on to her mother...WW.
I hav'nt asked her. Some months ago both DD22 and WW's mother told me I need to talk to WW...can't leave it like this indefinitely.
But I was pleased that DD22 told me she felt my present response to WW was good.
My note to DD22:-

DD22,
Your role is simply as message bearer and I am grateful for that. I hope it does not become too difficult for you. I had made it clear to your mum in letters after she left that, until she gave up her affair and tried a return to the marriage, I wanted there to be no direct contact between us.,
Love, Dad.

Response to your mum's letter:-

AT PRESENT THERE IS NOTHING I NEED TO DISCUSS WITH HER.
AND AT PRESENT I DO NOT FEEL IT A GOOD IDEA TO MEET.
MUM COULD MAKE UP A LIST OF ANYTHING SHE FEELS SHE NEEDS TO DISCUSS. I WOULD NOT IN ANY CASE WISH TO MEET HER WITHOUT AN AGENDA.

Another issue.
DD13 has recently caused me, and DD22 who helps, a lot of stress...mainly due to truanting from school.
DD22 has an idea...that WW should now have DD13.
Apparently WW has to leave her one bed flat...and will be living at her sister's house nearer town.
DD22 suggested to me that perhaps I could pay half towards a 2-bed flat for WW so that DD13 could live with her.

DD22 told DD13 who thought it a good idea even though it meant changing schools, leaving her many friends and losing her pony.
I think DD13 will change her mind when she has thought it out more!
Anyway, I heard WW was not, not surprisingly, keen on the idea her reason being that..."she had had almost 2 years without DD13 and is living her own life now".

I am not keen on the idea...and it breaks my Plan B to some extent.

Oh, nagrom, I'm sorry you're having this issue, but when you said you might send DD13 to her mom's...it scared me. YOU are her stability. What she needs today more than anything is stability and to know that she is loved.

More than anything.

Being with her mother...I just can't imagine her getting anything there except being told to stay out of the way.

I know it's hard right now, but you have to know that she is hurting that her mother chose a man and sex over her own daughter. She is shattered. Some kids grow more inward. Others outward. Your is going outward by trying to prove she doesn't need adults. Just be steady, loving, and firm. Give her consequences for truancy, but do it in love. I suggest consequences in the form of having to work for you at the house - chores, if you will, but things like washing windows or pulling weeds. No matter what, do NOT let her think she doesn't have to do what you say. She may be mad at you for a year or two, but she will thank you when it's all over.

I don't know you, but I really just don't see anything good out of her moving to live with her mom. Trust me, I have studied a lot about adolescents, and this is almost surely what she is doing. Be strong, but be loving. Every consequence you have to give her for skipping, put that together with a little speech about you doing it because you love her. She may be saying she doesn't want your love, or doesn't believe you, but she is lying. She is hurting beyond belief; thus the acting out.

Please don't send her away and prove her fear - that you don't want her, either.

Did I suggest to you that you go to www.daughters.com? It has an excellent newsletter, a lot of valuable information about fathers and adolescent/teen daughters, and even a forum where you can ask specific questions about your situation. Please visit it.

Good luck.