SC and MIM...We are still working through the pain I caused, even though I am "on board." I hear what you both have said, and that's why *I* said I hope and pray that you will be able to reach that point we are ALL striving for in recovery (to be successfully recovered).

I just question how long you can do it for the reasons you have stated. Children, in particular, can be affected negatively living with parents who are barely co-habitating, let alone in love. Silentlucidity speaks about this often and I agree with her. It doesn't set a positive example for them to see one or both parents settling in a mostly loveless M. Obviously, after an A there will be some time before things are completely back on track...and every couple has good times and bad times. I am speaking of an indefinite period of obvious unhappiness.

And SC...we should be ruled by logic and reason, because feelings are just FEELINGS...and they can be changed/replaced/renewed at any time. I learned that from reading Dr. Harley's words...I was one who lived on feelings and the "high" they bring. It was only after I realized that this is wayward logic, and that feelings follow ACTIONS, that I changed my thinking on this! Believe me, it was a hard lesson for a drama queen like me to learn!!

MEDC...thanks, we are OK, but it sure hit me MUCH harder than I expected. W2S was great! He painted a wooden sign with Sonny's name painted on it and nailed it to his tree out back, and then hung his neck chain from it as a memorial. He also gave me roses and stayed home from work to be with me. I could not have asked for a sweeter, more supportive husband! Thanks for the condolances!

Continuing my train of thought here...Mr. W said to me early on that he had one and only boundary, and that was that he REFUSED to be in a loveless marriage...That communicated to me that I had work to do if I wanted to stick around...That he would NOT accept the status quo of "crappola"...and hey, that isn't what I wanted either...

All that leads me to believe that some of your spouses need to truly understand that you are NOT okay with the way things are and that you desire things to be different and that that will take TWO...And if things don't change, well then, you can and will be going...RADICAL HONESTY could be the catalyst for change for many of you I believe...What I see instead is conflict avoidance...which leads to WITHDRAWAL...I realize that conflict is scary, but conflict, handled properly, leads to intimacy...

And the whole point of MB is to fall romantically in love with your spouse...I want that for all of you...I believe it is possible...I've seen it happen firsthand...

Mrs. W

I can not say about any one else but my FWH knows my feelings and that i post here.

My W has no idea that I post here...she doesn't even know the site exists.

I talked to her about how I felt until I was blue in the face. She listened, and cared, and offered to help however she could.

She could do nothing, unless she had the ability to invent a time machine and change the past.

It's been about 670 days since d-day for me. I could've discussed how sad or angry I was at least 670 times since then...probably more like twice that, at least, since I am both sad and angry about the A at least once per day. Who would want to hear that at least 1,340 times in 22 months?

So, I bottle it up as best I can. It boils over now and then, but it's better than looking even more pathetic than I feel.

Yeah, I think being a BS is humiliating. I feel like if I had the guts or any nerve at all, I'd already be divorced. Self-esteem and pride are 2 things I've had none of since d-day. I just try to hide it, because nothing my FWW has ever said or done in R has made me feel better about our situation.

MIM,

I don't know your specific circumstances, so these statements are not directed at "YOU", but towards the general state of marriage that you describe. Obviously, as I've stated often on this thread, there are exceptions to every rule.

It is my experience that statements such as the one quoted above, are simply rationalizations to avoid doing something unpleasant. Children pick up the darndest things from us parents, and they KNOW when something just isn't "right" with Mom and Dad, and they will mimic that behavior in their adult lives.

When a BH stays in a less than loving M "because of the kids", or whatever EXCUSE they cling to, they are sending a very strong message to their sons that "marriage is ALL about sacrifice, and to get along, you will need to compromise yourself to your WW's will", and your daughters (who will tend to marry someone like dear ole Dad) will see "I have half the money and all of the p****, so Hubby had better toe the line".

"To Thine Own Self Be True" ... 1st and foremost!!!

FogFree DISRESPECTED me with her actions ... for me to recommit, I required her RESPECT going forward ... fully & completely ... and that included immediate NC, along with her recommittment to us. I would accept NOTHING less, and as long as she would/could respect me, then I would be willing to invest myself fully into recovery.

I've often heard that as parents our most important job is "raising kids", but I DISAGREE ... as parents, our MOST important job is to raise ADULTS. Adults who have values, and can be strong independent contributing members of society. If they have those qualities, their future "happiness" is nearly assured.

I simply REFUSE to allow someone else to define who I am ... I am NOT my W's Husband, nor my children's father. They are part of the big picture of my life, but they are not "WHO I AM".

Well, I WAS my wife's husband. I WAS my kids' father. I still am, of course, but I mean that they are the reason I get out of bed in the morning. They were my purpose. They made me who I am, and I was fine with that. I was PROUD of it, since so many dads these days are subpar. I wasn't a wimp or a pushover. I earn the money, I mow the lawn, I wear the pants, so to speak.

I never thought that my life revolving around my family could be a bad thing....I certainly never thought I would suffer for it, like I am now. I gave my life to her, willingly, and it meant nothing.

I know ideally I'd get some hobbies, make some time for me, re-establish my own identity. The problem is that I don't have any interest.

This is one of those days when I feel like such a schmuck for staying.

I think you're misquoting me. That's just one of my reasons for staying, not THE reason. And yes, I try to talk to my FWW. And yes, she knows I post to this site. She even posted here too at one point. Guess what - she thinks this site does me more harm than good, and doesn't usually take any interest in anything I say here, or anything that anyone says to me here. Sometimes I send her links to threads that I thought might be of interest, only to find out that days afterwards she didn't "have the time" to look. Of course she has lots of time for other stuff, like searching around for a new PC on the Internet, etc.. Sometimes she does read something I send, then asks me a question that suggests she's read the whole thing completely out of context, or just skimmed through. So I end up getting the feeling of a general lack of involvement in our recovery, a feeling that I've shared with her.

I think all this is too much "work" for her, so she avoids it, particularly as some of the comments might actually be about her.

And also for me anyway I am not necessarily "unhappy" in my M but i certainly am not happy.

And my FWH does everything he possibly can to make me feel better. The issues i am dealing with are MY feelings, MY emotions. Even though he is doing everything humanly possible to make amends for his A, i can not get over the BETRAYAL and he is FULLY aware of that.

I did make it very clear that a loveless marriage was a big boundary of mine. WH did not see fit to join in. I gave it ample time and more effort than most would. I'm satisfied that I gave it my all.

I don't believe that this version of life together is even considered MARRIAGE. There was no marrying of lives. We were living as seperate as two roommates. Actually, I spent more quality time with previous roommates than with PWC. HE just couldn't grasp the notion of actions first, feelings develop next. He didn't FEEL happy, so he didn't think there was anything to be done but wait and see.

In many cases, you can't know that this is what you are dealing with in a WS UNTIL you are knee deep in false recovery. You can choose to disrupt this situation, and set boundaries, or you can settle in for your kids. I don't think less of myself for asserting my boundaries. I can look in that mirror and I like what I see. I love what I see.

My son will always be my highest priority, outside of keeping myself healthy, and I do believe that he would be negatively affected if my relationship continued on as it did. He deserves to be around a happy parent, and I intend to be just that. I hope to raise a wonderful adult. My life will be harder, financially, but it's a trade off. My body has taken a beating over the last two years of purgatory. I honestly find myself feeling stronger and healthier each day that passes.

I feel you Krazy. A few weeks ago i was posting on Mimi's goddess thread about how ungoddesslike i am (i am not a girlie girl AT ALL) and they kept asking what i do for myself, what makes me happy. What MADE me happy was being a wife and mother, NOTHING ELSE. That is what my life revolves around and always has.

Try not to feel like a schmuck, i don't think it was a bad thing that you have tried to save your M. I think you just need to SOMEHOW get over the angriness that stems from the infidelity. Hopefully we both can get past it because i know (for me) that is what i do want.

What I am doing is pursuing my own happiness in a rational and responsible way. (Which BTW, I think is a great demonstration of self-respect)

Mrs. W, I hear what you are saying. But to me, the problem isn't that I am not "saying" it. The problem is my FWW is not "hearing" it. To be clear, I'm not saying she isn't listening, she isn't hearing.

Myrev is posting about demanding respect. When I do this, what my wife "hears" is "I demand you sacrifice yourself to my will."

This is not a question of will power or desire, its a matter of I am asking for A, and she thinks I am requesting B. We both agree that A is a reasonable request and B is unreasonable. Round and round. I ask for a partner, she refuses to be a slave.

So how do I walk away?

This reminds of when BP talks about squids "comfort zone" or doing something outside her "comfort zone". I don't think my FWW's "comfort zone" was established based on some quirky random thoughts. To her, they are neccessary survival skills, learned over years. And that is hard for me.

Krazy...aw geez....

((((((((((KRAZY))))))))))))

How to get over that level of pain? I certainly don't know all of the stories here, and so I am not minimizing anyone else's sitch, but...

Krazy, my heart just fell when I read your story. What you have endured is beyond comprehension to me. The fact that you have stayed and have tried amazes me. I don't think you have tolerated continued disrespect from your wife, but at the same time- your circumstance chilled me to the bone. Please try to be patient with yourself. Remember that you are a hero-that you have fought so hard to overcome your devastation. It will take you some time yet, I think, before you can re-enter your body, so to speak, and start engaging in your life completely. Give yourself that time, and keep in mind that even if you left...these feelings would most likely follow. Heartbreaking, but true. You should not feel like a schmuck for staying...far from it!

If I may offer a suggestion...have your wife come here. For me, it helped me to understand the level of pain I had inflicted upon my husband. I was able to make many changes about myself that I had needed to make for years even before the A.

And keep in mind that W2S is still struggling with the same issues...particularly..

He says time and time again that he only wanted to make me happy...that I was his whole life and being my husband and a father to his children was all he wanted in life. And that it wasn't enough for me. The "WHY" part of it will haunt him for some time...maybe forever.

But I echo what Mrs. W said...those of you who are years out and/or who are continuing to be disrespected by your WSs--ROCK THE BOAT...reach out and see what is left to salvage. If there is nothing, then be comfortable with your efforts to try and move on with your life. Easy for me to say, yes, but W2S had the same boundary as Mr. W..."I will not be in a loveless M...PERIOD!" And yet he endured months of my crap before I "got it." When he stood firm on that boundary and said "I WANT A D" is when I scrambled to save my M. Everyone is different, though...

Very interesting statement. I was at a support group when I realized the same thing about myself. Even though I maintained my own interests and career throughout my M, this was at the forefront of my very self esteem. My DS moved out 6 months before WSTBXH to go to school. A lot of my emptiness has come from measuring my own self worth by how I took care of my family, only to wake up one morning to have no family to take care of. I also cannot answer the question "what makes me happy". But I do believe that knowing this is important.

Krazy, I have a lot of respect for you. I hope you find your way out of that h*** hole soon.

Thank you for the kind words.

I don't think my situation is any better or worse than anyone else's.

At least I keep trying to tell myself that!

My W was never in "love" & never pretended to be. While that is horrific in its own way, at least I never had to compete with another man...there was no fog or attachment to the OM.

Of course, that means I was sold out for next to nothing...oh well. What a Monday!

Krazy, attempting to create a happy family is never a bad thing. The effort you put in will pay dividends in your children's lives. As for giving your life to your wife--well I don't think, marriage requires that our individual identities be subsumed to the point that we lack all sense of independent being. Intimacy is an amazing thing but we remain individuals whether married or not.

The best gift that we can give to our children is providing a home in which there exists real joy. It washes over them and bathes them in laughs and smiles. When a spouse breaks, what we thought was an intimate bond (in a truly horrible way) joy evaporates out of our beings. At some point though, it’s not about what they did, but about what we’re going to do to reclaim happiness for our selves and our children.

Well, what I meant to get across better, and didn't quite accomplish was...

While I AM here posting and learning, W2S actually feels MORE pressure to "get over it" because of that fact. I have told him that just because I "get it" doesn't make it magically go away (actually, it's the opposite). But when others say "I wish mine was like yours..." it leaves him almost desperate to be "all better."

Moral of the story...THIS [censored] IS HARD-HARD-HARD!!!!!!!!!!!

Doesn't matter who you are or what your sitch or how your WS reacts- it is horribly painful and difficult...but there must come a time for healing and working together as a team. We are 14+ months from D-day but only 4 months from my recto-cranial extraction, so our timeline is screwy. Even so, we are already working together as a team and W2S is trying so hard to overcome his pain. He doesn't want to feel this way any more than anyone else...

Prayers to all of you! Your happiness matters!!!!!!!!!

PS--MOST EXCELLENT POST BRIX!!!!!!!

Krazy, >”I know ideally I'd get some hobbies, make some time for me, re-establish my own identity. The problem is that I don't have any interest.”

I assure you; around 1 year post D-Day 2 of the VLTA I felt the same. Really. I was done with life and just more or less waiting to die. I got up in the morning, I went to work, I came home and did chores, helped DS with homework, brooded on MB, took an AD and went to bed. Then I did it again just the same the next day.

Change this, Krazy. You don’t need an interest. You need goals.

My goal was not so much to reinvent myself as to recover who I used to be before I became so fearful of FWW. The past two years have seen a lot of scary work, change is scary, but things are vastly improved for me regardless of FWW’s attitude towards our marriage. And this is just a start.

Let me compare the highlights of my past week with two years ago, it is typical:

Monday – Boy Scouts. I am an assistant leader. We started planning with the older scouts a high adventure trip in Northern British Colombia. It is going to be great.

Tuesday – Tutored at-risk children in math in at local grade school. These kids adore us tutors. For some of them we are the only people who help them, who understand their frustrations at school and who care that they actually learn something. Their eyes light up when I come in the room! Let me add in the spirit of some of the comments on this thread, almost all of these kids are from broken homes. And not homes with a single parent, either. They are traded back and forth between participating parents. But they still represent the huge majority of at risk grade school kids.

Wednesday – Made it to the second half of DS’s soccer game. He did not play but I ejoyed watching him with his friends. BBQ’d dinner for my family and the neighbors on both sides of us. We ate on the new back patio I put in over the winter. DS even had a fire going in the new fire pit.

Thursday – I can’t remember, but I know I slept well. Nothing unusual in my journal. DS and I read and discussed the Aeneid together in Latin for 30 minutes or so as we usually do most weeknights before bed. DS and I said evening prayers together and FWW joined us part way through. She often does these days. She rarely did during her VLTA.

Friday – Finished the final draft of my paper for an international radar conference. Took it home and FWW checked it for proper English. She likes doing that. She found my Navajo mistake, lol. I’ll probably take DS to Europe again like I did last summer. He’s having fun planning where to go.

Saturday – Got up early and joined a crew from our parish remodeling a dozen low income and transitional houses. Since I have a truck I hauled debris to the landfill all morning. Not the most glamorous job but I am satisfied. Gave $25 to a homeless guy camping near the landfill. It was all I had on me so I skipped lunch. On the way home I stopped by work to observe the first test of a prototype sensor network we are building in the lab. It worked, but there are some software bugs. OK, cool, we still get to earn a paycheck. In the evening FWW and I went to a baseball game and sat in the corporate skybox. I ate two foot-long brats and the beer was free. I was very content.

Sunday – Attended Mass as a family. While DS mowed the lawn I cleaned the garage so FWW could get the car in easier. She’s been asking me to do that for weeks but I was stalling for a sunny weekend. I also made myself (I did not want to do it – tedious job) repair the weather-stripping on all the outside doors. Helped FWW prepare Sunday dinner and we ate in the dining room as a family. Afterwards I helped DS with his math homework and FWW checked his latest English assignment. Before bed FWW lay on the couch while I rubbed her feet and we watched some TV show, Law and Order I think, but we were talking so much I wasn’t paying attention. Was probably about adultery anyway.

My point, Krazy, is you find interests where you look. But you have to look. You can be happy too.

I decided I would preserve both my family and my sanity if I at all could. They are not conflicting goals and are in fact mostly independent of FWW’s approach to married life after her adultery.

I see three themes imbedded in the evolution of this thread:

1. The people most vociferous, most strenuous in criticizing BH who stay in what they see as a less than perfect M after an affair seem to be BH who’s top EN is either SF or admiration. Must be testosterone related.
2. Some people appear to believe romantic love is more important than ethics and happiness is impossible without it.
3. Some BH self-respect hinges mostly on how their wife treats them. Or on what they think their wife thinks of them.

These are the saddest things, IMO. I know because I used to be the poster boy for all three.

Life is very good as long as I keep from thinking too much about adultery or about what FWW is doing in her recovery. But I will not give up on her.

With prayers,

Candles, Barry White, backing out of room.... OMG, now what has this thread turned to! LOL

Wow...............

You know what, I do have to say this. I have a tremendous amount of respect for MEDC and that he calls things like he sees them. I like that he doesn't sugar coat. I do NOT think we live anywhere near each other LOL And I don't have enough kids to start a football team.. But I am sure he would know how to treat a woman with respect.

That being said... I live in a town of about the same amount MEDC and I have the same ratios you do. Besides the fact I work in Social Work and most of the people in town are on my caseload LOL is it any wonder I look outside of this radius?

And no, we wouldn't want you to be flirty after seeing my picture ;-) haha

ok, back to this thread's originally scheduled topic.

mlhb

La La


A long time ago I worked out what phases of recovery I went through. Many BS seemed to identify with them:


Now Res the "la la la" bit is not for your benefit I promise ! It pre-dates you by years !

See I do not mean to patronise but I spent much of the 6th month to the 2 year mark advising everyone else how to be as recklessly happy as Squid and I.

All ENs met, recovery panned out before us like a leafy vista.

But....after a while I unbound my wound to see how it was healing and it just wasn't.

Squid tore away from me to have her affair and it tore half my guts away with it, like when a bee stings. Squid did a lot in those days to make me happy and I WAS happy, just not sustainably healthy.

BigK swears that if I got my ENs met I'd be happy and recovered. Well, I was *THIS* close to having my needs met for a year or so, and I still ached and bled out behind my bandages.

That is what I am a left with - I understand Squid's frustration. She says her A broke me and she can't undo her affair. She fears it may never be enough for me, and I tend to agree with her.

Smart people have told me how I am choosing sadness, being unfaithful to God, punishing Squid, punishing myself when in truth....I am just one of those BS who had an unhealthy reliance on fidelity and other related issues, and the A just broke me.

People talk about "I won't live in a loveless marriage". Well "love" is what Squid and OM swore they had. Love is what caused my guts to be torn out. I'm not well enough to carry that burden for a while yet.

For years I didn't post on MB for fear of disheartening people with my reality, having been "plan A poster boy".

Maybe its time to do that again.

All blessings lala. Just don't be devastated if you folks take a step back occasionally as well as giant strides forward.

Maybe not, but the last I heard MEDC was looking to MOVE-If I recall both of your locations correctly you are in neighboring states! Plus I've seen both of your pics, y'all would make a cute couple!

Mrs. W