Zonie...

I am a FWW...I was one that told ALL the details right off the bat-I don't say this to make myself look good, because at the time I didn't do it for the right reasons at all...I did it to hurt Mr. W further-I am VERY ashamed of that...I am glad that everything was put on the table though, because there was no opportunity for what is currently happening with you and Mrs. Zonie to occur...I'm certain that is horrible for you...I'm so sorry...It is my sincere hope that she will see this and go to the ends of the earth to fix what she can now.

Even after I spilled my guts to Mr. W I was concerned (later in recovery, when I was fully out of the fog) that maybe there would be something that came to me that I hadn't shared with him. I voiced my concern to him and promised that if anything at all came to mind that I would share it with him...I asked him if he would be okay with that and he said yes...And I did...No matter how trivial it seemed (to me) I told him...It became important to me to do this because by that time I very much wanted him to know EVERYTHING there was to know about me...affair related or not...Intimacy became a very much a team effort for us...And Mr. W had his fair share of secrets from me as well...That became unacceptable to US...I believe that is where we first began to look at the entire marriage/recovery from a team perspective...It has served us well...I hold out hope that you and Mrs. Z will get on that track...It is a fruitful one...

Mrs. W

This isn't something she just did.
It was done months, or weeks ago.

You simply knows about it now.

So, is it better to know? I would think so. So you can be proactive. So you can find a solution (together...)
So it will never come as a suprise to you somewhere in the future.

So -- she told you. That was a gift of her trust. That you are not going to use this information to hurt her. And she is willing to tell you everything. So that it can be you and her against the affair/OM.

We will coach her to tell you what you need to know, and why this is important.

But you need to LET HER. Without causing fear that you will leave her or use this information against her or berate her.

You need to work on receiving the information in a non-threatening way. And to work together with her on what is done about that information.

OK, well, I agree with you MR, MEDC, MEL...but I also see Lexxy's point in regards to Dr. Harley's road to recovery.

The problem here is that they haven't reached a point of even a FINAL D-DAY yet. ALL information must be disclosed to the BS...or at least all that he/she has asked. Once this happens, THEN re-building can begin in earnest, and the AOs and DJs and such must be abandoned in order for that to happen.

Dr. Harley says...


THIS IS WHERE THEY ARE NOW...THEY HAVE NOT MOVED INTO THE NEXT PHASE UNTIL ALL QUESTIONS ARE ANSWERED AND TOTAL HONESTY IS ACHIEVED!!!!

At that point, Lexxy's is right, and the doc says...


But, this re-building cannot take place until all the gory details are revealed to the BSs satisfaction...and it may take a while. Writing everything down and getting it all out in one fell swoop would be the quickest way, IMO.

But what I think we were ALL trying to point out, 2Long, is that they must FOLLOW THE PLAN. Noone is trying to label anyone here...we are simply trying to help these people recover in a way that is their BEST CHANCE for TRUE success. Noone should settle for less than a loving, romantic, passionate marriage. It may take a while, but the best hope we ALL have (those of us still in recovery, that is) of getting there, is following the MB path.

STANDING OVATION LaLa! Great Post!

Mrs. W

Agree, Lala, and that is exactly what we have been saying all along. While Zonie should not lash out, it is understandable under the circumstances.

But accusing him of "abuse" for lashing out in deep pain, in response to her abuse, is not helpful and reflects a shocking lack of empathy that aggravates the situation. It is the equivalent of accusing a stabbing victim of "abuse" for calling her stabber a name while he is being stabbed. That is ridiculous.

Just because these are events that happened in the past does not negate the intensity of the trauma. In fact, it compounds the crime because this is news that was withheld from him.

So while it is important that zonie provide her with a safe environment to tell the truth,[which everyone agrees on] it is also important that she demonstrate some EMPATHY and understanding for her victim when he is on the floor bleeding. I think such a demonstration will go a long way in calming his reactions.

Thanks Mrs. W! We cross-posted, and ditto to you on your post.

Zonie...we are ALL rooting for your success as a TEAM!

Great posts LaLa.

2long,

I'll make this short, because I have no intention of engaging you in a pissing match. We simply see things from opposite ends of the BH spectrum, so it is not surprising that you would disagree with my perception. We have plowed this field before, and I see no reason to rehash our differences in perspectives and tolerances.

Wow, thanks for the responses everyone. We've taken the day off and MrsZ and I have been talking for 5 straight hours and I'm exhausted. I have followed the advice of others here before and told her how to tell me new details she remembers. I told her I might even get mad and call for a "time-out". She didn't follow my request and it hurts deeply. Will I continue to follow the MB plan? I have to. We have a 5-yr old girl and for her as much as anyone, I want to make the marriage work out. I have to pick my emasculated self off of the floor that is littered with the pieces of my self esteem and ask "please sir, may I have another"? I broke down in tears in front of her because my dog must have sensed my depression and just wanted to be next to me. That dog showed me more love and affection in that moment than MrsZ felt while having her A, and it just tore me down.

I have also dealt with her range of emotions from indignation for completing her story for you, to her calling herself names that I couldn't even have thought to call her. Will these pics end up somewhere outside of OMs possession? They could. Although in her fog, she feels he would NEVER do that...yeah, right! Like he's trustworthy. She was quite obviously a willing participant and I would never give the OM the power to know I wanted them back. And I couldn't trust him to give me all of them anyway. I will just have to live with knowing they're out there for the rest of my life.

I totally get the LB idea and I KNOW I can't do that, but it's hard!!! When it gets hard, I call for a time out. For the last five hours she gave me explicit details. Some without my prompting. Do I think I've gotten them all? No. How could I believe that? I think she sees the effect of not knowing and what it does to me now so I can only hope.

Shortly after the A was revealed she was worried that I'd leave. I said I would work on this until she gave me a reason not to. I've had plenty since then and you've all been here for me. I'm still here and wanting to do the work. So I don't know what the final reason to quit would be...I just know it's not now.

God bless you all for being here for us.

Applause to both you and Mrs. Z!!! Now you're cookin'. Know that all your cyber friends are praying for you. The Vets will help guide you through the Recovery Maze. It is a long road, BUT... the worst of it is right now.

God Bless You Both!!!!
WH2LE

Zonie, I'm impressed to no end that you can call a time out. I find it almost impossible. Good for you!!!!!

Good job, Zonie! As far as leaving, you may find something that makes you want to leave. THAT IS YOUR RIGHT. It is up to you to decide whether or not you want to stay.

You have a RIGHT to the full truth about your life.

You have a RIGHT to leave if you want.

I would only suggest that if you do feel like you want to get a divorce, that you HOLD THAT THOUGHT for a year before you act on it. Your anger is temporary, but divorce is permanent. Making such a life changing decision is NEVER good while under duress.

Hang in there, you will get through this.

Mel, I completely agree. The Zones did a fabulous job.

It will be HARD, but it is necessary. Many couples don't get this kind of chance.

I would add that, like the "timeouts" Zonie describes, it may be necessary for either one of them 2 leave for a while 2 have the chance 2 calm down.

MyRev:

Okay.

-ol' 2long

Mr. Z, IMO Mrs. Z should still make the request. And immediately. And make it known in no uncertain terms that she wants them back.

You think you can force yourself to live with the knowledge that they're out there? I couldn't force myself to life with the fact that my FWW gave cards to the OM, much less photographs. She requested the OM to return them all, and he did. And if he doesn't, that will be just more proof to your W of what a creep he really is.

Excellent point ML.

To the Zonie's...My prayers are with you both and your daughter. I am glad that Mrs. Z stepped up to the plate.

LoBoy

Thanks MIM. For me that would violate NC. Right now I think we need NC more than a probable failed attempt to get the pics. Even less likely that he wouldn't keep a copy anyway..they're digital. It's going to be tough, but I have to learn to see clearly through all the possible scenarios and Contact would be yet another step backwards.

thank you maverick

Love in Christ,
Miss M

Mr Z,

Just want to say that I just read your wife's latest post. I'll tell you the same thing I told her...



Prayers for you both,

Mark

Hi - I just could not resist replying to both you and your wife.




You were not being abusive. I guarantee, your emotional response was "par". (In golf, a par is a predetermined number of strokes that a golfer should require to complete a hole)

Please do not add to your own suffering. Expressing your pain is important. This level of pain is usually expressed as anger, in very ugly words in this early stage. The anger keeps you at a safe distance from despair.

I see a hopeful situation. My view is longer than yours is right now.

Have hope.

Pep

Pepperband,

"The anger keeps you at a safe distance from despair."

That is so well said that it made me almost cry. So many times, it seems like folks are telling you that you can NOT be SO angry in the early stages of discovery, that your expression of any anger is a LB. I think that sometimes anger is the ONLY thing that can keep your head above water.

It certainly was that way for me.

Thank you for sharing your wisdom again.

Blessings,
WH2LE

Pepper,

Thanks for the post. I think my angry outburst was a LB. It certainly didn't deposit any Love units. Justified? That's debatable. Avoidable? No way, no how. Understanding where I was headed with my emotions made me avoid further LB's. I only knew that because of MB and these boards.

To continue with your golf analogy. I'm certainly not a par golfer. I'm probably about a double-bogey (2 over par). Tonight I told Mrs Z in the most nonthreatening way I could, that if she told me one more stinking lie after 4/29/08 and I caught her, I am picking up my ball and marking my scorecard as complete. I'm gone. I've "threatened" that before. I simply told her tonight. She said she understood that I needed to do this to "save face". While not using these words, I told her my "face" has already been scarred with the road rash of her dragging me down her pavement of lies, and saving face isn't what it's about anymore. It would be about saving my soul.

I do think she is starting to come out of the fog. Will I believe her 100%? Not ever. 90% and then verify, verify, verify.

It's up to her now. I'll try to be a good golf partner but I know with all that I am, that she's used her last mulligan.