GM Kayla,

Actually I did reply to both your posts. They're on this page:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2053256&fpart=9

Let me know your feelings on my reply.

Thank you

Feeling pretty sad this morning.

Feeling pretty alone in all of this, feeling that people here are getting the wrong opinion of me.

I'm so very tired of the pain inside. There's allot of neglect going on, and my spirit is running down.

I asked H to call me this morning, since I'm always the one who calls him and says Good Morning. He was going to his mother's house early, so I know he's up and on his way, but no call.

I just don't understand the obvious neglect, and what I'm suppose to do with that. I know I can't make him call, and I know my response is what's important, but what do I do, if it tears me up inside, when he doesn't call? There are so many times he's done this, and he keeps repeating that he forgets. You don't forget all the time, not over and over like that.

When he does call, I'm so happy, and I'm very loving toward him, and there's no negativity, just happiness. So why does he not call?

It's not as if he's a boyfriend, he's my husband.

I'm just extremely hurt over this. Hurt over so many things, I feel I can't take anymore hurt.

Anybody?

Why don't you call him? If speaking to him will make you feel better, why not just pick up the phone. Just because you asked him to call you doesn't mean that you are somehow barred from initiating the first move.

One thing you can do is de-escalate situations. Like this situation: You can sit home all day depressed because he didn't call OR you can call him and have a nice conversation.

Mys

I do call, I call him most of the time. I guess it hurts me because I've asked him to please call me sometimes, that it makes me feel happy and loved, if he thinks of me on his own and calls me to lift my day and make me feel loved.

Actually, I just got off the phone with him. I called him.

I first said good morning and that I missed him and loved him. I then told him I felt a bit hurt because he hadn't called me. He said he didn't think of it, and I just felt sad. I didn't mean to, but I started to cry a bit, tried to hold it in, as to not make him angry, but it just feels wrong that I have to hold my true feelings in like that, so he won't get mad.

I just told him that the separation has been hard on me, and I hate living apart from him and not being able to wake up next to him. He said he can understand that, but why do I have to be negative again. You see? I can't say my true feelings to him, can't show my emotions, and that's just too hard to do. Why is it negative, just to express how I'm feeling, or how it makes me feel when he doesn't think enough to call me?

Sorry, bad morning .. crying now, just can't understand any of this. If I have to hold everything in, what is our relationship then? And if a man loves you, why wouldn't he think of you in the morning, and want to say hello, etc.?

And HOW in the world, do we do this, if he's saying that ANYTHING I express is negative, and I can't hold everything I feel inside?

Actually - there were three posts, and this one is the one I was talking about - I'll post again so that you can see it:

April, this is my response to your post this a.m.

JMHO,

He's not going to meet your emotional needs any time soon. So - if you want your marriage to be healed you will need to become a bit more self-contained, meaning, you don't need HIM to make you happy or feel good.

He has to be "attracted" into meeting your needs. Part of Plan A is about becoming the confident, beautiful woman you were when you first came into his life - and I'm not saying go back to that person, because she was vulnerable to become so dependent upon him that you hurt at his ignorance and negligence.

Part of Harley's genius in the Plan A Plan B system is that in Plan A, you become the strong self-contained women who is able to cage her own taker and be the best woman she can be. Right now, your taker is pointing out all HIS deficits in the relationship constantly. That awareness is an enemy to your marriage, in that it weakens your resolve to focus on YOU.

With the Taker contained, you can then set about to rise in the morning with a choice to be joyful. Protect yourself from lovebank withdrawals, and get spiritually connected to how much you have to be grateful for. Believe me, gratitude for what works is a huge thing in Plan A. Then get after the little things that weaken your confidence. Is it a house that isn't clean that you KNOW is important to him? And to you? What is it that allows his criticism and complaining to get to you? Those things are areas where You Yourself are dissatisfied. If it weren't the case, his complaints wouldn't be able to get to you because YOU'D KNOW that you're an impeccable homemaker, who cooks great meals, and looks fantastic and ISN'T NEGATIVE or SAD ALL THE TIME. So get to it. You will not have time to miss him in Plan A.

Meanwhile - get ready for Plan B - That is what will get your taker to cooperate with being contained. If your taker knows that at some point, you will recognize that you have reached that wonder woman status within yourself (and he's had a good look at it too), that you will protect wonder woman April by going dark on him. Take yourself away from the one who saps your hope.

Only after all this will he become teachable to how to meet your needs. Right now, he doesn't want to - your sorrows are not appealing to him.

Are you ready to determine your Plan A actions? I'll be back tonight to help more, if you want.

Kayla, I thought I responded to that post, apparently I didn't.

Let me read and re-read what you wrote and I'll post a bit later.

Thank you for posting and YES, I'd like you to come back to help me with this. I feel I've been in Plan A for a long time, but maybe not. I actually need 'cognitive' help before doing the plan, because so many things bother me right now.

Thanks again

(Kayla is my beloved wife-I had to create a new account to login here because my old account here no longer works)...

In the hopes that it might help you and your husband as much as it has helped Kayla and I, We have developed a spreadsheet version of the priority merger (see the link in my signature). We use it regularly to help us poja. We don't compromise because we have learned to negotiate and use this tool together. It also keeps us focused on the positives in our lives and moving forward instead of getting stuck in the dark side.

I'm sorry for your pain. His anger is not about you even if it is directed at you. He's got a long way to go to learn how to be at peace with and enjoy his sexuality. What he's got isn't even a shadow of real happiness, but YOU have a long way to go to develop healthy emotional boundaries in your relationship and know where you end and he begins. I can't recommend anyone more qualified than Kayla who understands this and can mentor you along.

Best of luck. You can do it.

oops. I have been told I can't give you that link here but Kayla has it.

If you choose to accept this next challenge then, consider and post about this:

What is his most-often repeated complaint about you?

And what do you see in yourself that has you "buying in" that there's validity to his complaint?

Is that self-image factual?

Or is it a distortion, programmed by his dissatisfaction and you feeling helpless?

What is most likely the more accurate truth? (pureed down to the true essence - that defect/flaw that makes you feel vulnerable when he complains?)

What in that accurate truth defines an opportunity for personal growth?

This is how a Plan A truly begins - the kind that changes lives and prepares for personal recovery and if possible, marital recovery...

Looking forward to your response.

Trust is a tricky thing because the fact that you don't trust him because OTHERS have hurt you isn't really fair to him, but he hasn't put himself out to earn your trust either. So it was a lose-lose situation from the time the two of you got together.

Trust is given in several different currencies though. One currency you can control entirely without him "earning it" and will meet his need for admiration at the same time. It's called "respect" and then also removing the lovebuster "disrespectful judgments".

We'll come back to how to do that in a minute. Let's address the exhaustion.

Let's address the causes of that exhaustion:
Depression.
Processing the relationship.
Feeling unloved.
Feeling alone in your marriage.
Feeling fearful, untrusting, unhopeful about the future.

The commonality in all these is fear. So address that. Take relationship talk off the table when you're with him. Turn off the news or leave the room if he's watching it - with a purpose in mind so that he doesn't feel that you are irritated by what he's doing. I know someone who uses the name "Chicken Little" to describe news anchors. And it's true - every day there's more evidence that they present that the sky is falling... So stop listening to Chicken Little.

Now go after the activities, literature, music, etc. that help you feel faithful. I have two c.d.'s that I've put into my IPOD via I-Tunes. One is Christian music (beautiful arrangement of hymns) and the other is Innovators II by Kurt Bestor - which he recorded prior to the 2002 Olympics. There are stories/biographies that go with each track on the CD - about an athlete who overcame something in order to be the very best. Not all the songs are about Gold Medalists - instead, those who had the greatest victory over fear, war, life, etc. were featured. I remember the stories to each song as I listen and I find myself focused as I clean house or get ready for a challenging customer... The ordinary things of life that hold me back.

I was glad to see where you started exercising and started small with the partial mile a couple days ago. Keep that up. Are you drinking enough water? Also - where you are fighting depression, cut out the sugars and the simple carbs - white bread, white rice, etc go too fast into the blood stream. Later, you crash, and the depression can be much more dramatic than if you eat a diet of vegetables, high quality fruits like berries and citrus, lean proteins, and high fiber grains and beans. Remove the things from your diet that cause stress hormones to increase in your bloodstream - things like caffeine or decongestants with ephedra. Stress hormones also contribute to depression. Take good supplements like a multi-vitamin, omega 3 oils, calcium, etc.

Also - start going to church. Then come home happy! Spend a few minutes each day reading scriptures. Then "behave" cheerfully. It may feel "fake" for a while. But emotions follow motions so going through the motions - fake it til you make it - has some validity. Read James - the whole book of James in the Bible. Notice how he describes FAITH. Faith is a verb - the actions of a believer. Notice also that there is a difference between believing and knowing. Sometimes believing is just "wanting" to believe. That is where you will develop the skill to trust the right people. And trust your husband on his merits of being trust-worthy. For there are some areas of life that he probably deserves your trust. But first you must trust God. And you don't right now, or you wouldn't be suffering from greater depression as you listen to the news, or read here. There are so many stories here of recovery. yes there are hard stories too and stories in process.

Know this: God has earned your trust; you withhold it with your fear. Understand this one key point. God is good. And He waits for you to receive His love. Make a gratitude list - of at least 100 things you are grateful for. Find at least 100 ways that God sends His love to you even in your darkest times.

So - in summary - remove the stimulus/triggers for depression, and add the healing aspects of good and helpful behaviors.

The next step will be finding ways to respect and honor your husband. But first, you need to respect and honor yourself. What are the qualities you admire in yourself?

April,

I feel like we are now really into the meat of the problem in the marriage!

Your statements regarding your lack of ability to trust men really strikes a chord with me.

I need you to take a very strong look at the logic here. And with this, I need you to move away from ALL REFERENCES to FEELING.

FEELING cannot enter into this for now.

Trust should be based on reliable evidence. Not on how you "feel". For example, I might see a man in a store dressed in a motorcycle-riding outfit and "feel" like I cannot trust him at all, right? I base that "feeling" only on my stereotypes, what I have created in my head, and NOTHING else. Past experiences, stuff I have heard or seen, things I only BELIEVE about guys on motorcycles - and NOTHING about THIS MAN at all.

Is that fair?

Turns out this man I'm looking at is the head of a Christian motorcycle group who is the Baptist preacher for 30 years at the local church who is just picking up some water for his handicapped son-in-law, who he is taking for a ride in the sidecar today.

Gee. My "feeling" was reallllllyyyyy wwrrrroooonnnggg. I even knew this guy personally, trusted him, and the only thing I distrusted was the fact that all I really saw of him today was that jacket and outfit he was wearing. I never even looked at his face.


My point is that you need to self-evaluate much more closely on your trust in men. Regardless of what any individual man may have done to you in the past, this does not paint all of them - or your husband - with the same broad brush. Furthermore, even though your husband has likely done things in the past that have bothered or annoyed you, your basic sense of trust should not be completely broken. *Unless there has been a previous affair?*

*If you are talking about a previous affair in your marriage when it comes to why you do not trust your husband, then there are other things you need to disclose here, or we are not going to be assisting you in the right direction.


Barring that, I would also say that you need to look at your ability to "let go" of some issues, and look at forgiving and yoru ability to do that, too. I say this because your husband has specifically asked you to let things go, and you say you worry things over and over.

I wonder about whether or not this issue is an area that you would need to address in the marriage, as I do see this tendency here - and despite several attempts at concrete methods of advice, you seem to either pass over them or cast them off/ignore them entirely.

I can see this as a frustrating issue for your husband - leading him to view it as "negativity", in the sense that instead of focusing on the solutions to problems you tend to focus on the problem, talking about the problem, worrying about the problem, crying about the problem, talking about how you feel about the problem, why you have the problem, who caused the problem, the past issues with the problem, various reasons the problem is complex.......and so on.

It is the tendency for men to want to SOLVE the problem and move forward (generally speaking).

For example, your desire is for him to call you in the morning, or to be the "first one to say good morning".

Do you see how tedious and difficult this would be for a person to have to live with? - I need you to take your "feelings" out of this, and be logical, April.

For each and every behavior, are you asking him to have to predict - Okay, am I supposed to be first or second to say "good morning"? Should I be first or second to eat at dinner? Should I be the one to ask to raise or lower the volume on the TV, or will it hurt her feelings and make her upset, because then she will think that I think it's too low and then she thinks that I think she's turning it down on purpose to get me mad? Should I or should I not read the newspaper before or after dinner? Sports section first or last? Should I call my friend on the phone for 5 minutes, or should I be sure to keep it to 4? What is right to do.....what do I do???? What was right the last time? What did she WANT?????

I can't remember what "made" her happy!



When in fact, YOU cannot "make" him happy, and HE cannot "make" you happy, either.


And all of this focus on who does what first, or next, or for how long, is taking your focus off of the REAL problem, or at least the problem you CAN do something about.

That problem in the marriage you CAN do something about????

Guess what???

It's you.

You are the only problem in the marriage you can cure.

You can control your own reactions.
You can control who you talk to, and what you talk about.
You can control how you feel about yourself.
You can CHANGE your approach to your issues of trust in your husband, based on the REALITY of his behavior - not on your "feelings" about what other people in your past have done, and what has happened in the past.
You can CHANGE yourself - because you can focus your eyes and mind on those things about yourself that are strong or weak - and you can use the strongest things about you to eliminate the weakest and build new strengths.

You CAN do this, because you are in control of yourself.

It takes work.
It takes focus.

And it takes a decision to STOP behaviors that are self-deprecating and self-destructive, to stop negative behaviors, and to really change your focus toward the positive things in your life.

If you are a Christian - you call those things "blessings".

count them

I urge you to start by going to a website called www.Acomplaintfreeworld.org

and take a look at their thoughts regarding changing yourself toward happiness. It is a site originated by a pastor, but now actually opened toward all faiths.


I in no way mean this post as a 2X4. I need you to try to get away from so many feelings, and try to step into a more reasoned, logical approach to your life. Your feelings have you wrapped up too much into a downward spiral.

You live RIGHT NOW. You do not live way back in the past, when whatever happened back then, happened. It really is over, and you CAN move on.

SB

Will respond later today, not feeling too well today.

april,

In your response to KaylaAndy, I see you trying to explain why you

CAN'T

do things to move forward.


Can't go into a church building, but you are a Christian. - Seek help for this problem. I am willing to bet you CAN go into a church building. NO MATTER WHAT happened in the past.

Can't take antidepressants. Okay. Actually fine. So don't take them. Because the research shows us that one of the best antidepressants is actually physical movement OF ANY KIND. Move your body. Regularly. You don't even have to "exercise" in a formal way in a formal class with a formal teacher on a formal schedule. You just have to MOVE YOUR BODY regularly. This can be bike riding for 20 minutes with your kid, taking a nice walk, doing yoga with a tape, swimming at a local pool, playing hopscotch with the mentally retarded kids in the special education class twice a week. Gosh. That isn't so bad.

Eat a healthy diet. Now, that doesn't mean you even have to count calories, weigh food, measure servings, or meet the federal food pyramid guidelines, april. Just eat a healthy diet.


Because the research shows that, oddly enough, the combination of a reasonably healthy diet and regular exercise (physical movement) actually is as effective towards removing and CURING symptoms of depression as most, if not all, prescription medications on the market today.

Gosh. And it's free. Without side effects.


No time? How about the time you are spending worrying about things? I am completely serious about this. SCHEDULE your time to worry - this is also a very serious tactic towards eliminating worrying.

You have spoken here many times about this problem. Work it in with another SOLUTION - because you need solutions that you do not pass over, april.

Make a list of your things to worry about.

I am SERIOUS ABOUT THIS.

list them.

Then, plan your worry session. Only, take your list of worries out with you for your 20 minute worry session, which is now combined with your walking time.

You are allowed to worry while you walk. Worry about each thing on the list for a limited amount of time, then move to the next item on the list.

Bet you find your mind NOT worrying, because you quickly realize


worrying is fruitless


Which is the exact purpose of worry time.


Try it.

It, too, is FREE.


So I've given you three free things to try in order to help you on the way to alleviating your depression.

Please do not pass them off, or ignore them.


I am hammering at you, I know.

Because, I DO KNOW.

I KNOW.

Now, I don't have to know. I survived.

And if you do a search on my posts, you will find I survived more than you can possibly imagine.

No matter what, I guarantee, you CAN go back in that church. I guarantee you can do anything you decide to do. ANYTHING.

Guar - an - tee.


Guarantee.

SB

Hello Pojaman, I looked at the priority merger, looks like a good tool.

Hi aprilshowers, it's done wonders for us and continues to bless us more all the time

...I know that in talking with him in the past about women, that deep down, it seems like he's angry with them, and doesn't really 'like' them, even though you'd never know it, because he 'loves' looking at them and thinking sexually about them.

it very much sounds to me like he is 'using' sexual lust like a drug. To numb or medicate underlying feelings. It sounds like the sex addict dynamic to me. Lust is a spiritual/emotional parasite. It demands more and more and isn't ever satisfied. It is a relentlessly destructive and dominating thing. his anger is at himself, that's HIS depression coming out thru his sexuality.

...I actually feel bad that he can't connect intimately with me or anybody for that matter, he's missing out on so much.

if he is addicted to sex/lust then it can only bring him to jails, institutions and or death. Like other addictions it's not a sustainable way to live. The fact that you recognize that he can't connect with anyone not just you is a good awareness. You see it's not 'about' you. It's about his condition which has next to nothing to do with you.

I do tend to define myself from how the man in my life thinks of me, NOT good I know, I truly need some help in that area.

Ok, try this on for size, ...you mean how YOU think HE thinks of you?

Thing is you're not inside his brain you are inside YOUR brain. What I'm hearing is that you place more importance on what you think that he/others think of you than perhaps what you/God think of yourself.

it sounds as if you are almost completely externally defining yourself. there is tremendous pain in that. If you want to be free of this pain than that behavior must be unlearned and you must learn to validate and honor yourself more independently of whatever messages you get from anyone else. If you have learned to only value yourself if you think other's like you then you at the mercy of your own self defeating behavior.

you have mentioned how hard it is for you to trust men. well consider if you will that YOU have a system for self affirmation/validation set up in yourself that is dependent for whatever reason on male approval and appreciation. Without that approval and appreciation you apparently consider yourself respectively worthless.

Depression is largely anger directed at oneself. You can learn to honor/validate/appreciate/approve of yourself better and that will help reduce it.

Recognize that the key to your joy and release from this hurt is not in the hands of a man where you have placed it. It is in YOUR hands.

Best of luck. You can do it.

Before I respond to the last 2 posts, I need to talk about something very important. Two situations that have come up, that I need advice on how to handle now.

Husband came over for Mother's Day and spent the night, during foreplay, I noticed a small sore (scabbed over) on his penis. I asked him about it, and he said he had no idea what it was, and he hadn't even noticed it. I looked a bit more, and it appeared to be a sore that had dried out, it was hard to tell.

I was naturally concerned for both of us. I said maybe we should wait and have him find out what it was. He got upset and said fine, if that's what I wanted. I know he won't go to the doctors, he never does. I mentioned it once more this morning, very nicely, and asked if he'd like me to make him an appt. with our doctor, we both see the same one. He got all angry and defensive and said NO, he would take care of it.

I will say the next thing I did was probably wrong, but I asked him nicely, how he would take care of it, what he meant, was he going to be seen by the doctor? All though, in some ways, I don't see anything wrong with a wife asking that, because this isn't just him, it's me too, it can affect me, if it's anything.

He got really angry and defensive and said he would TAKE CARE OF IT! I dropped it.

By the way, I've been doing my best to fill his love tank with his most important needs, trust and admiration. I just think, when it comes to both of our health, I deserve to know what, if anything, he may have.

The second thing is, yesterday, I asked him if we could schedule a time to discuss something I needed to talk to him about, and he was fine with it. The time came and we sat down. I said that since he had told me he never used pornography or any other material for his own pleasure, yet he had ... and it had been twice, I would like to know if he had done this MORE than twice. I said that I trusted him each time he told me he never needed that stuff, because he had me ... and now he had admitted using it, it was a bit harder to trust his word. I told him I wanted to trust him, so if there were other times, I'd like to know.

Once again, within minutes, he became angry and defensive. He told me he had apologized and that should be the end of it. I said that I felt hurt that he had lied about it and that I wanted to make sure he would come to me, instead of using other materials from now on. I told him that I felt hurt that he had brought the subject of other women's breasts into our bed and during foreplay with me. I told him that I just wanted him to know how I felt about that, and that I wanted to trust that he would not do these things again.

He then got really angry and started bringing up all sorts of past things, which to me, was playing dirty. It just wasn't fair, and it seemed like he was trying to steer the conversation away from him, and onto me. He brought up things from YEARS ago, things that had NOTHING to do with this at all! He yelled at me, and asked how he knew "I" didn't cheat on "HIM". What???

I've NEVER cheated on him, nor have I ever wanted to, desired to, acted in any way that would make him think I had. I don't stare at men, I'm very in love with him and only him. He sees how I live my life and he knows my morals and values. There is NO reason for him to bring that up, other than taking the attention away from what we're talking about.

It just threw the whole thing away from what we were talking about, which he does allot. I told him that we probably should stop there and pick it up when he wasn't so angry.

Even when I do all I can, and fill his needs, I don't understand how to talk to him about ANYTHING, if he gets defensive so easily, and brings up things that have nothing to do with anything we're talking about, just to take the focus away from the problem at hand.

I had chest pains this week-end, and made an appt. with my doctor for tomorrow. I was concerned it was my heart. These things are really getting to me, and I don't know what to do anymore about anything.

If him lying about the magazines, bringing up other women in bed, etc. is really hurtful to me, and I can't discuss it with him, how can there be intimacy, trust and conversation? There can't.

I'm at a loss here.

Of course he was. It's what people do. It's not that common to find someone humble enough to own up to their mistakes. Especially when they feel guilty. People learn to do this way back in childhood. It's just learned behavior, and we often do it even when we don't mean to or want to; it's just how our brain is programmed to cope.

The best thing you can do is say you understand he's feeling guilty and you're not trying to bash him; just understand. Keep taking the high road.