Last night was another up and down night. When I got home WW had already fixed herself something to eat and was done eating shortly after I sat down with dinner. She went outside to smoke and sat on the block wall around our flower beds with her head down for quite a long time.

She came in and went upstairs to shave her legs and when she came down she was in a better mood. Shared a little conversation and a few laughs and then her mood changed again and she was quiet for the rest of the night. When I went to bed I looked straight at her and told her goodnight and she couldn't even look at me.

I might be reading all this wrong, but it seems like she's getting through WD enough to begin the guilty feelings part. When she's down she can't look at me or anyone else for that matter. My friend Deb told me that when she was at the same point in WD that she began recognizing her hubby wasn't the monster she had created in her mind and that's when the guilt set in. She said she had huge conflicting thoughts and it took her another 2-3 weeks to be able to admit to her hubby that she F'd up. I just hope WW is following the same time line.

Hang in there, Hope...think LIGHTHOUSES...show her as much love as she will let you.

I hope you're out there LaLa. Could use some props.

How long am I going to have to put up with this WD crap? That's assuming she's not talking/emailing OM while she's at work.

It's just every night the same crappy attitude with every once in a while a small step forward. And it's starting to affect DS16. Last night he was pretty upset when we went up to bed after WW ignored me when I told her goodnight. DS16 told me that I should kick her out if she doesn't change her attitude in the next week or so.

It's been 4.5 weeks since she claims she went NC. And she's still treating me like I'm the anti-christ. It'll be 5 weeks this weekend since I exposed to the kids which prompted her claim that she told OM they couldn't communicate any more.

I guess I would have thought that I'd be seeing at least a little more progress by now, but I'm not.

At 4.5 weeks NC (assuming she's NC), am I expecting too much?

IMO, you are expecting and recieving far too little.

Nothing has changed since the last time I posted to you though, so I think what I've said before still applies.

You were on the cusp of action previously, then she does something that puts you back in "wait and see" mode, even though I haven't seen anything that I think should put you in that mode.

I'm just watching and commenting H4U. Your WW is becoming a career fence sitter IMO. She's not going to come down off it on her own.

Well, expectations are a killer, but you should not tolerate this kind of pouty, teen-age drama much longer. Your son has got the right idea...and I would lay it out there for her as calmly as possible.

Say something like..."You know, WW, I have endured much abuse from you and your adultery over the past few months. I have stayed by you as you have given up your lover- several times! I have explained to you that I would no longer tolerate that kind of disrespect and that if you saw or spoke to him again, we were through. You have done what I asked as far as I know. Now, I need you to understand that your attitude is not only wearing on me, it is wearing on your son. This is our home, too, and for you to be sulking night and day because you had to stop seeing your affair partner has grown very old for both of us. If you want to continue living here with us, you need to take some steps to improve your mood. I have a right to be addressed when I have spoken to you, as does your son. I have a right to be treated with respect in our home, especially in front of our son. As my wife, I would respectfully ask that you seek whatever help you need to from counseling or a doctor to help you over this depression. I will not be treated this way for much longer. Your window of opportunity to remain in this M is closing. I love you and would like to re-build the love we have had for each other, and I have been very patient...but time is running out."

Your love for her is dwindling...you must do something about it fast. She has had enough time to get through the worst of the WD and needs another little jolt of reality. But, don't let her blame you or spew fog babble at you...just say what you need to say, and then walk away. You may wish to do it in a note...maybe even with some flowers for good measure. And then set a time frame that you can live with...one week, two weeks, whatever. But you MUST STICK TO IT!! And you may want to start looking into what it will take for you to get into Plan B. Your son deserves better, as do you. Don't let him watch you tolerate this kind of crap from her, Hope. You are teaching him lessons by the way you handle this that will affect his future. Time to stop fearing what she will do...and do what you need to protect yourselves from further abuse and from losing any more love for her. I hope it's not already too late!!

Thanks TYK, LaLa. Don't worry. I'm ready for the chit or get off the pot talk. I am just trying to understand at what point should I start seeing improvement if she is in fact in NC/WD.

LaLa, you posted to me a couple days ago that I just need to exist with her while she gets through WD. That's what I've been doing. Just trying to exist. But my question is, at what point in WD is the time to push it? I'm really ok with or without her. I just don't want to blow it in the 4th qtr if I'm on the cusp of her figuring this stuff out.

I like the way you worded that stuff LaLa and I just may use it when the time comes. And I say that because just when I've had enough I see another baby step forward from her that makes me think she's still on the emotional WD rollercoaster. Won't post the whole thing, but we just traded some IM's and it sounded like my "wife" back, not the WW I've been living with.

I know TYK will say this is the pattern that she throws me tidbits every once in a while to keep me strung along, and you may be right. But she talked to me in these IM's using little phrases that have meaning to "us" that I haven't heard in probably 9 months. And she volunteered a lot of her schedule info for the next week or so and that's a step forward.

I know that conversation you outlined LaLa is coming rather soon, but like I said, if one of your previous posts said that I should be expecting her to start coming around in the next 3 weeks, is it premature to go there now?

One other tidbit. I saw where WW must have been looking at my copy of "not just friends" last night. Interesting....

Well, that's why I said you have to decide when it is right for YOU...whether that is 1,2,3 weeks...but it needs to come sooner than your love turns to hate, KWIM? So, if you are seeing improvement, then reinforce the positive when it is possible. But, you can't go on like this for much longer. You are almost 5 weeks from supposed NC, so I wouldn't wait much longer than 2-3 more weeks UNLESS she makes SIGNIFICANT improvement in that time.

PS--are you snooping to verify NC???

Ok LaLa, we're on the same page. I was thinking another couple weeks and if I don't see improvement then the come to jesus talk.

I have no way of knowing if she's emailing/talking/IM'ing him while she's at work. If she is in contact, that's the only time she's talking to him.

I'm almost 100% positive the physical affair is over (OM lives 200 miles or so away, OMW is pretty sure he has another GF already, OM wasn't too happy with WW when I exposed her STD to him), but the EA of it, at this point, I just have no way of knowing. She claims NC, but cheaters lie. I'm sure she things they can continue to be "just friends" because in her mind, if she's not sleeping with him, it isn't an affair.

Ok, wouldn't you know it, but just when you think you've had enough, WW makes one of those steps towards you that give you hope she's progressing.

Last night was the best night we've had in 6 months. She was talking and sharing things like we used to before D-day. It wasn't normal, but it was good. But then the enabler GF called to chat about her BF problems (I'm sure GF was having an affair before she filed for D from her H, don't you just love those affair friends?) and after that WW's mood changed. She wasn't as down as she's been lately and still talked more, but she was definitely different.

I picked up DS16 from drivers ed and he told me that he ripped on WW the night before. Told her that he loved her because she was his mom, but didn't like her. Told her that he'd told me I should kick her out if things don't change soon. Wow, Just what I was going to tell her if things don't start changing.....

So we'll see how the weekend goes. Weekends are usually good. I think WW triggers at work because that's where she met OM and that's where the enabler GF is too so weekends she usually is more open and responsive with me.

Hope,

I have been reading along and have a few thoughts. I know your son is 16 and is approaching that peak in knowledge that we all arrive at when we hit 17-20. I also know that it is comforting to you that he is letting his Mom know what he thinks of her.

HOWEVER, she is his MOM. He really needs to respect her as his parent. He can express his sorrow, his fears, his pain, but he does need to be respectful to her. I know this weekend is Mother's day. I also know that your W will need you AND your son to take her by the hand and make sure she knows that deep down you both love her. She may react like a complete jerk, BUT you two need to show her that she is valued in this home of yours.

Talk with your son. Put some boundaries on his attacks on her. Make sure he knows he can express himself but that he is talking to his Mother and the woman that you love. He knows you are hurt, you know he is hurt, but you two need to show her more than that and this weekend of all weekends would be a great time to do it.

Please think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks JL. I probably haven't expressed it in these posts, mainly to keep the posts to a readable length, but with my kids, I don't bring these things up. If we talk about them, its when they ask the questions or initiate the conversations after something they've observed.

I've been very clear with them since I told them what's going on that she's still their mother and even though she's done a bad thing, it doesn't mean she's a bad person. I repeatedly tell them (when they ask) that she just got caught up in a situation that got out of control and now she's struggling with getting out of it (assuming she is). Both kids are still loving towards her, DS16 especially, since he's the one at home.

I may have overstated it when I said he was rippin on her. He really just expressed his feelings to her but I know if I was on the receiving end of what he said to her I would feel like I was being shredded (and rightly so).

You bring up a good point about Mothers Day. What should I do? In the past I've always got a card, flowers and a gift of some kind. Last year was a spa package that she really enjoyed (even though she went by OM's for a quickie on the way home). I got DS16 a card to give her which is all the kids ever do for both Mothers and Fathers day. In the past few months we've had our anniversary and Valentines day which I got her a card and a small gift for. She never acknowledged either, but I know at those times she was still in at least an EA and trying to arrange a meet with OM. Now may be different. What would be the right way to go for someone you think is in NC/WD but still not grabbing a hold of committing to the marriage? I don't want to over do it as one of the things she's complained about is that she feels smothered.

Advise?

Hope,

I'll tell you what I am going to do. My W loves breakfast more than just about any meal. When the kids were home they fixed breakfast on Mother's day. Eggs, sausage, bacon, grits, juice, toast, the works. Now, they are all out of the house, I'm taking her to breakfast.

We'll sit and talk, eat, whatever. I'll get her a card, although she is not my "Mother". The kids are sending her things like flowers and such.

My point??? Pick something simple, but something that you and your son can DO with her. As I said, she may be a jerk when you do this, but do it WITH her anyway. Fix a picnic, do something that brings the three of you together in a setting that comfortable for all. Make sure she knows that you two do value her as a Mother, even if she isn't sure about the Wife bit.

Make sense??

God Bless,

JL

Odd. You get her gifts and flowers for Mothers Day. And her own children only give her a card?

I think you got that totally backwards.

She is THEIR mother. THEY are the ones who should be giving her gifts (albeit you, as their father, would most likely fund or facilitate their gift giving.)

IMO this is how your train your CHILDREN on how to honor their mother on this special day.

You should be recognizing and celebrating your OWN mother if she is still here. Maybe for your wife a card recognizing her special day.

IMO, especially this year, she will not be receptive to gifts from you -- therefore gifts should come from her CHILDREN and be thoughtful and hopefully healing.

Yes, she's not my mother, but she is the mother of my kids and I've always got her a card, flowers and a gift. Saying Thanks for being the mother of my children.

I asked my kids if they wanted to get their mom something for mothers day and they both said just a card.

Yes, my mom is still around and yes, I honor her. Won't be able to do it in person this year for the first time in I don't know how long, but I've sent her a card and my brother and I got her flowers and I'll of course, call Sunday.

The card I did get to give to WW is a pretty simple card. No ILY's, No, I'm thankful you're the mother of my kids etc, it just basically acknowledges the day.

I'll talk to my one son who is still at home and ask again if he wants to get her something.

I'll also try to come up with something family like and special for Sunday.

Opinions please?

Thurs was the best night we've had in months. Friday started out much the same. Traded a couple of work related IM's at work that were good exchanges. Got home last night and WW came in a short time later and it was a continuation of Thurs night. Nice conversation, some laughing with DS16, etc. I told WW I was going to go out to dinner and asked her if she wanted to go along and she replied that she wasn't hungry as they had ice cream treats during the afternoon so I went without her.

When I got home a couple hours later her mood had totally changed. She was TM'ing who I would assume is the enabler GF (as she's the only one WW text's anymore) and she was pissy. I asked a couple questions about the weather for today as we are going to mulch our flower beds etc and she was short and snippy with me. So I decided to go upstairs and watch hockey rather than sit there with her in her mood. I told her goodnight and she ignored me so I stopped and said "would it kill you to at least be civil with me and respond when I tell you goodnight"? She made a sound in response like 'no, it wouldn't kill me' and then said "goodnight".

So tell me your opinions. Does this sound like the mood swings of WD? Does this sound like when she talks to the enabler GF that she just gets reminded of OM and her mood changes?

IMVHO-

Mother's Day just may be the opportunity to burn the fog. Mother's Days can invoke past memories of better times. Need to set up a perfect day with sons involved.

If after a great day, and you are still being disrespected - not sure how you can keep going without your own EN being met for 12 mos. Admire the patience you have endured.

Have any boundaries slip since you had the 'come to Jesus' meeting ? perhaps you will need to encompass the GF in those boundaries one day.

Well, I DO (unfortunately) have experience. My enabling GF of ten years actually started out by enabling the A...then she felt bad for W2S (we had all been friends for 10 years) and started hounding me about getting out of the studio and away from OM. Once he finally was gone, she tried desperately to talk me out of telling W2S what had happened. After I told him anyway, for a couple of months she was there for W2S and tried to help him (phone conversations) while I was at work and he was home by himself working on the business. She was kind of pissy with me during that time, but then once the CD came (3 months after D-Day) she was like "OK, all done! You need to pursue your music now...W2S should be over it!"

But, he wasn't. And as bad of an entitled, self-absorbed b*itch as I was, she was 10x worse. This woman had two D's under her belt, both which ended horribly. Sufficed to say, she was NOT the person to go to for relationship advice!! She was all- "I don't need no man! I am woman- here me roar!" I was either with her or spoke to her every day...she was my "smokin buddy." W2S used to comment that every time he felt he had made a little progress with me, she would come along and POOF- entitled b*tch LaLa was back!

This went on the entire summer, until all of a sudden, it became apparent to ME how crappy of a friend she really was. She was blatantly trying to ruin my M at that point, asking me to go out with her to the bar every weekend. She wanted me SINGLE so she would have someone to hang with all the time. She spent the entire summer telling me how WEAK my husband was and how his whole problem was his HUGE EGO and that I was like a POSSESSION to him. She told me he would use the A against me for the rest of our lives.

The problem was...at the same time I started seeing through her, she pulled a couple pretty stupid stunts (no need to go into detail). The last couple of times I went out with her (always me driving, paying for everything, etc...MOOCH!), she got plastered as usual and cried the whole way home about how LUCKY I was to have someone to go home to like W2S and how much he obviously loved me. All of a sudden as she was blubbering it occured to me...WTF am I doing out with YOU at 1:30am on a Saturday night while my husband sits at home??!!

A couple days later, she called and basically demanded I do this, that and the other for her (as usual) but this time I was ALL DONE! I told her simply--NO, and she went OFF on me, called me every name in the book and told me that I was lucky to have her as a friend, blah, blah, blah. I just laughed...it was like taking something you were holding tightly in your hand that you thought was a diamond and then walking into the sunlight, opening your hand and finding a stinking piece of [censored] there instead. From that day forward, I was DONE with her. She tried to call a couple times, but I ignored her.

W2S and I almost instantly turned a corner. For the next three months we were so close to being in true recovery, except I still clung to that moody, pouty behavior (in my defense, I gave up a major pot additction during that time-lol). Finally in Dec. he told me he was done, and I came here, and, well, you know the rest of the story!

Sorry this is so long, but my point was (let's hope I have one after all THAT!) the moment I let go of her and saw her for what she was and what she was trying to do, we turned a corner. It still took a final stand by my DH to complete the recto-cranial extraction, but if she has still been in my life, I doubt it would have EVER happened...we would be headed for D. It is IMPERITIVE that you get rid of this friend.

The problem is--how? If W2S had said I had to give up my friend before I was ready, I would have hated him for it. Let me think on this for a while and I'll try to come up with something you can do to shine the light on this "friend" so your WW can see who she really is...my strongest instincts tell me that she will have to figure this out on her own...but maybe you can do something behind the scenes to speed up the process!

PS--just in case you are insanely curious...

I hadn't spoken to her since August. She tried to call me the day before Eatser and I blew her off...

She called back a few nights ago. W2S was at work, the boys were in bed and I though-what the heck! She was in tears, and I was coldly curious as to what was going on with her. Since we parted ways-

*She lost custody of her 3-year-old son to his father.
*She lost every friend she had (and her family already could hardly stand her).
*She got fired from her job for (haha) insubordination (she was an outside sales rep and they took her company car from her on the spot-she walked home).
*She is about to lose her house and is filing bankruptcy (which we are filing too, can't say much about DAT! lol).
*Her 16-year-old daughter got pregnant and had a baby (the baby's father is in prison).
*The list goes on and on...

She is a bitter, broken, lonely woman who has noone but herself to blame...of course in her mind-EVERYONE else is to balme. The whole WORLD is out to get her and that's why she ended up this way. GOOD GRIEF!!

I won't be talking to her again...so sad I wasn't around for all THAT drama.

Hopefor,

I like what Resonance is telling you. One day when you see the mood swing after she has contact with her BF, I would be inclined to make a comment such as the following: "Ever notice that when BF is around you start treating me like dirt?" And then just walk away.

Do your best on Mother's day, but I do think you need to speak up and state your boundaries with regard to how she is treating you. Do not be mean, do not be confrontational, simply say something like " I feel like **** when you do ...." and be specific. And then leave it at that.

Clearly how she treats you bothers your son a lot. Clearly neither son is wild about her behavior toward you, toward them, and MOST IMPORTANTLY toward HERSELF.

Hang in there.

God Bless,

JL

HFU,

Just wanted to say hi and offer my support. For what it's worth I do think you DW is starting to show signs of cracking. Hang in there and meet EN's whenever she will allow you. LaLa's right though, you do need to see what you can do about limiting the BF's influence on your DW. I have no doubt that had I pushed things with LaLa's BF still influencing her we may not have been able to recover. It was a shame because I considered her my friend too. She was our next door neighbor at our first apartment. To realize now that she was directly responsible for LaLa causing me so much pain just makes me want to scream. I had no idea where LaLa was getting the whole EGO thing from and now I know. So much for being friends. Really pisses me off that this woman wouldn't protect virtual strangers that cheated when she was a bartender, but she hung me out to dry without a second thought after being friends for 10 years! She even went as far as to cover for LaLa and threw me off base when I got suspicious that something was going on.


How's the saying go "What goes around comes around?" You gotta love karma. Coundn't have happened to a nicer person.......

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