I find this quote really offensive. I think that physical safety is a given, not something that should be called out and praised as an above and beyond accomplishment. Would folks say something like this to a BS or WS, too?

AW3, have you read Dr. Harley's Controlling Spouse Q&As to see if you're still showing your W a controlling side, or whether you've got that licked.

Say, I have responded to your posts honestly. We all are here for advice. I value your opninons and don't see where I've strayed at all.

I value your opinions, too. I didn't say that you've strayed. I am learning a lot of great stuff from your thread, and thank you for having me. The statement about the controlling spouse article was not an accusation at all. I've learned a lot from it, and thought it might give you clarity as well. You mentioned getting married when she was really young, and that age difference at that age creates some patterns that make it even more importnat to get clarity. My H and I have a 16 year age gap, and I wish I'd had MB back then instead of treating H like an authority, creating resentment for me personally. I am glad that I have tools today like MB to use instead.

I probably should have broken that out into two posts. I respect pom, too. But wow, that specific comment about being thankful for not getting hit really struck me as inappropriate.

I was trying to illustrate a point that she wasn't married to someone who was abusive. No, it isn't some great accomplishment to not be subjected to physical abuse, but nothing is a given, as you suggest.

I could have just as easily said she should be grateful he's not out sleeping around. Fidelity is as much of an assumption in a marriage as physical safety, yet both things happen all the time. My point was to tell someone that is neither being cheated on or physically hurt to look at the good things they have and be grateful that they aren't married to a wayward or a person who is physically/verbally abusive or does drugs.

Hi, pom, thanks for clarifying. I tried telling myself that for years, "well at least I'm not getting hit", and for me it reinforced the mindset I was trying to get past of marriage being awful and it's safer to be on your own, where you're not at risk for that stuff. Just to clarify, my H and I came from physically abusive homes and when he got angry, I did feel and at times was physically intimidated. It took a long time here at MB for me to understand that I am safe in my home; that it's not something I need to be thankful for each day. That I can make that a "given" through my own actions and boundaries.

It works a lot better for me to choose to focus on the things about my H that made deposits, like his warm hugs, or watching him read to the kids, rather than choosing to focus on my fear of violence.

AW3, does this discussion relate to you at all? Did your W seem fearful of you when you were angry? Did you AO? Did she have AOs of her own?

Hey aw3, I would not help her move out, but I also would not allow her to take any household furniture with her. That will make the transistion to her new place much easier, and you don't want that. You want her transistion to be TOUGH.

Your children's home should not be disrupted any more than it has to be to in support of her affair by removing furniture. Let her take her personal belongings and that is it. The courts can divvy up anything else if anything is to be divvied up. You don't want to COOPERATE in your separation.

I suspect you will be headed to court very soon anyway when she fails to make her payments. That is what usually happens.

And be assured that she is moving out to carry on her affair in peace. That is the only reason she is leaving. All wayward wives accuse their victims of being too "controlling." Sometimes it may be true, but more often than not, it is a female manipulation tactic. Remember that you are dealing with a falling down drunk here so whatever she says is 95% crap that is devised to serve her addiction.

I find it offensive as well.

Just because someone doesn't beat you or hang out in bars all the time, well, it still doesn't mean they are meeting your most important EN's.

Some things that people want to count as above and beyond are merely things that should be done in the first place. My ex used to do me this way as well. When he was out of town for 40 weekends the last year we were married he said "Well be glad I'm not out in a bar" I wasn't out in a bar either so why did that count as above and beyond for him?????

Sorry I was away yesterday guys. I missed the posts (business trip)! I was away all day and only communicated w/ wife via text early in the morning. We are talking amicably, although she knows my wishes. Here is her last text to me: "not arguing, but do u realize Im not the weak grl nymore gettin stronger alone daily" Of course, she wanted me to see "weak grl", but all I saw was ALONE. I know that to her alone right now just means without me. My respone? "You were NEVER weak, if anything, I am was the one who was weak."

We did speak last night for 90 seconds after she told the kids goodnight, but just general convo. Remind me, how much "relationship talk" should there be at this stage? I feel I have so much to say, but I also want to listen. I wish she would SAY more than what she has!

This is a list by MrW about the do's and don'ts that may help you.

Do's and Don'ts of Plan A

DO's

1. Act Happy
2. Get a life (new activities, etc.)
3. repeat over and over..."I will make it"
4. Actively LISTEN....keep conversations at "to the point...small talk" ...don't blow it up beyond the waywards current comfort zone
5. Tend to Agree (Thank you for your truthfulness, It seems that way, you have a point)
6. Expand your social relationships (Being especially aware of your own vulnerability and keeping sharing and time with opposite sex relationships to an absolute minimum)
7. Get sexy (gym, new clothes, etc)
8. Focus on your strengths and Positives...don't put yourself down verbally or constantly go over what you did wrong
9. Accept Uncertainty (Do your best today and let God take care of tommorrow)

DON'Ts

1. Repeatedly say "I love you"
2. Ask questions that don't have answers yet
3. Criticize, complain, whine or nag
4. Say, "I've changed"....allow the wayward spouse to simply judge your actions
5. Argue, Reason or Plead
6. Don't get family or friends overly involved in recovery (notice I said "in recovery", EXPOSURE to bust up an active affair IS ESSENTIAL and EXPOSURE to the OP's spouse is an absolute MUST)
7. Act helpless or depressed
8. Discuss morality, invoke God or Dr. Laura type babble
9. Suggest marital counseling (must be the waywards idea)
10. Tell them continually "we need to work on the relationship"
11. GIVE UP

What's taking her health insurance going to do?
He is still this women's husband and taking her health plan from her is a lot lower than cheating IMO. It's just morally wrong and mean.

And OP- I'm sorry- this dude does not sound like a predator lol
your wife is her own person and makes her own decisions. Unless your wife is 12 then this guy is doing nothing legally wrong besides commit adultery.

She is still covered on my insurance. And, you're wrong, OM IS doing something wrong morally! Maybe he is not a predator and , of course, my W is equally as wrong, but OM claims to be a man of God and has abused that title. She says that he now prays with her on the phone every night for me, come on.

Here's some Bible for you: Proverbs 29:9, "He that turneth away his ear...even his prayer shall be abomination." I know most people cringe when someone starts quoting scripture, but right is still right, and wrong is still wrong!

Coach and Cat,

Sorry if what I said bothered you. I was trying to illustrate a point and it wasn't taken well. I was trying to show that complaining about where a man throws his dirty shirts vs where you want him to do so is very small and petty and that there are much worse things he could be doing, such as.....

Relationships aren't easy. The dynamics of men and women aren't easy and the way we talk to each other effectively is not intuitive.

What cat said struck a nerve and was a trigger for me because of the reasons I was told that my marriage ended.

I'm sure cat's husband would be very unhappy if he was left and the reasons included, "you didn't put your shirts in the right hamper".

I heard similar small things and it was very painful to hear those things.

AW3, the reasons you'll be given are much deeper than the reasons that are the reality. The reasons you'll be give of why she was unhappy are merely justifications and rationalizations about why your marriage was allegedly bad.

pom, I think I understand what your intent was. I understand that it was painful to be told that the reason your wife left was because of things like where you put our dirty shirts, things that seem so minor. I do understand that on the scale of bad things one might do in a M, that would rank much much lower than cheating or physical abuse.

I think the problem in communication lies in the comment that just because something is not as bad as another thing, that one should be grateful. I understand this comment but I can see how it might trigger someone who wants more than a lack of the worst behavior.

And I just realized something: this is similar to discussions about the EN of Attractive Spouse. If that EN ranks high for you, then it's very important and we've seen it become the "reason" given by a WH. But if AS doesn't rank high for you, then you can think it's awfully superficial, and be hurt by hearing that "reason".

You are basically talking about Annoying Habits, which is definitely an LB. Granted, it isn't the first LB we should work on. IMHO the order would be AOs, SDs, and DJs, and then the rest, including AH and IB. But if that ranks high on your list of LBs, then for you it's very important.

I myself can't see it being the primary "reason" for a wife leaving, and I agree there would probably be other, more important issues. And of course there's no excuse - that's why I've put "reason" in quotes. OTOH I also can't see a wife not being a size 4 as a "reason" for a H to stray. But if AS is one of your top ENs then you are going to want to protest when someone minimizes that need. If AH is high on your list of LBs then you won't like to see someone saying, "It isn't really important, you shouldn't feel the way you feel."

I don't think that was your intent, I think your point was that on the scale of things there are worst things; but as ears said, focusing on the lack of something bad isn't as productive as focusing on the good:

I see the justifications and rationalizations that she is using, some if them may even be valid. She has even attempted to attack my character publicly to paint me as the bad guy and her as the victim. You're right, none of her words are true to her heart right now, they're just originating from the fog.

Consider them to be the mindless rants of a person on drugs and that will help.

It's a person who is sick and not thinking of anything other than themselves.

Yeah, right now it would seem that she needs spiritual, emotional, and psychological help. If this continues, she may even need physical help.

Mindboggling, confusing, frustrating, and hurtful. This all really just SUCKS!

Sorry, short TJ. pom, remarkably enough, your post didn't upset me. I guess because the point you tried to make was so far off the mark from my situation it didn't fit. In my case, my H has barely lifted a finger in our house except for mowing for 5 years. He doesn't throw away his trash, just drops it whereever he makes it; he leaves dirty Q-tips all over the house (kitchen counter, bed, table) as he finishes with them; he leaves his dirty dishes on the table; he drops his dirty clothes whereever he takes them off, all over the house and refuses to pick them up; he takes up 3 kitchen counters with his mail and yells if we move it to make food; he stores so many papers inside the kitchen cabinets that I don't have room for our glasses any more; he filled a 2-car garage with so much of his stuff that we can barely get the lawnmower in, let alone a car; I could go on for days. He DOES replace some lightbulbs (but not all) and he does replace air conditioner filters and fire alarm batteries; all because I can't reach them even on a ladder (only 5' tall) and have to ask him to. Yeah, I know I have a lot of faults, but my H has created such a disaster in my mind that DS is now my ONLY need, not just my #1. It's all I think about any more because I'm so ashamed of my house and I can't afford to pay someone to fix all the stuff; and it's the exact same thing he did to our last house, which was so trashed by the time we moved I was ashamed to let anyone in. And when I ask him, bargain with him, beg him to do anything, even ask him what HE could do to help - he looks me straight in the eye and says he can't and leaves the room - sits down and watches TV or goes outside to work on a project he started in the forest behind our house - a project he says he started for me.

So commenting about my husband refusing to use the towel hamper for towels when there is a clothes hamper less than 5 feet away and we have talked about it at least 12 times, IMO, is VERY indicative of a major problem, not a small issue at all - our power struggle over his insistence on not being seen as being nagged like his mother did to him (he became the father in their house; his dad was an alcoholic); something he readily admits but refuses to change. Like I said, it is now my ONLY need because he so blatantly refuses to consider being a partner in our house. I know I'm sounding like a major complainer at this point, but it's the huge purple elephant in our room, not a minor irritation.

Anyway, I gave that example so aw3 could see that what he THOUGHT his wife was thinking, or what he THOUGHT he was doing for her, could be completely off base, and counter-productive. Thus, better to try to understand her side of it.

Okay guys, back to the point. I have been forwarded several email responses that my W has sent to her concerned friends. In all of them, she insists that she will NEVER live with me again! Reading them breaks my heart. I don't want to hear that, but I do appreciate them keeping me informed. I wonder (false hope?) if she is so adamant to convince herself that she wants this. Who is she trying to convince? She has no idea I've read these, she's not telling me anything much.

Each of these friends emailed her to point out their concern for her emotionally and spiritually. None of them ever even brought me up, let alone praised me. She completely ignored their letters and began to tear into me and point out my flaws. The fog is VERY thick, and it's killing me. Is her insistence that she will NEVER return normal for someone in her situation? Should I believe her?

It's fog babble and we've been warning you about it. She will say very painful things. They are the mindless rants of a person on drugs.

You need to accept that you are not dealing with your W but with an alien who will say crazy stuff.

This is a huge step for you to make.

She doesn't know or is not accepting the consequences of what she's doing.

So exposure is HUGE. You see you're going to get support from friends. Now do it!

Me thinks she doth protest too much!

Anyone who makes that big a deal out of something is trying to convince herself! Just ride it out, expose, become the best you can be, and come out of this looking great. Show her friends how wrong she is, but do it the right way. She'll come around.