Oh Man FH,

I could post for hours on this one. But, I do tend to agree with you on most of your points. Since I grew up in the 40's and 50's mainly and was an "adult" by the 60's, I did get the full dose of the "flower child era."

I won't get into the religious aspects of things. I sense that you and I might disagree on a variety of details. But I will say that I am a scientist and of course know many. Oddly, I run into more than a few of them in church. Others are devote Jews. My point most scientists I know have a God. OK, I am going to touch on the topic. :eek:

I suspect your comments were directed at the probablistic nature of quantum mechanics. It is true, that quantum describes this in terms of probabilities, which allows explains how such things as transistors work. But the point is if one looks the complexity of nature or goes into cosmology, a wonderful field because there is little to prove one wrong, then one sees order, one sees organization. We see it life.

I don't see science as in conflict with religion. As human's man was born with the drive/need to explore our world and the limits of our knowledge. I believe it is God given. But, how God did it is a mystery to me.

I am always left with this interesting "thought experiment". If I were God and I could create the universe and all within it, HOW could I possible speak and explain these things to a being that doesn't know the planet he/she is one is round, and is woefully ignorant of the world around he/her? That my friend is a communication challenge that requires "dumbing down things" so that we could understand if not the "HOW", at least the "why", and probably not even the "why", but really "what should we do."

This is not to get into a theological discussion, but then to concur with you, that the disconnect between "Belief" and knowledge is huge in our education system. They are not disconnected in the lives of the scientists I know. But, they can be viewed differently than is taught to many people.

I firmly agree our education system as stepped away from the role of education when it comes to "citizenship", "honor", and "pride" in real work done real well.

I also blame "women's lib" for the poor status of our schools.

It used to be that the brightest of 1/2 half of the population went into teaching, that would be women. Now with more opportunities that is no longer the case. In the "good old days" an academically inclined woman really only had teaching as a professional outlet and even college was limited. So these very talented women moved into secondary education. I credit the fine education I received to these ladies and some very good male teachers as well.

Now??? Too many options, too many rules, too much PC, and too much oversight has led to poor teaching and I feel a disconnect between what is connection of the human experience, the duality of Belief and that of knowledge. In my mind they are very different but intertwined in a complex way. In fact, many new discoveries are providing proof and explanations for events in the Bible. Does that weaken the Bible? NOt on my little corner of the world.

The problem is kids cannot be taught these things because school must be secular...totally.

Must go, I know this post has you chomping at the bit, but I am leaving on travel later and we would completely thread jack Larry's thread if we get into this much further.

God Bless,

JL

This comment cracked me up. And what do you suppose you would have heard if you did the same thing to the boys? Boys don't talk trash about what girls they have had, who has big boobs or a nice [censored]? And for the record I am a woman and have never heard this type of talk. I know there are girls that do talk trash just like boys do but I don't think most do, just some.

Amen Sister!

JL:

Given that your thoughts are very, very similar to my own, feel free to thread jack all you want.

Larry

Well, as humans age, males tend to become less candid and women more so, for whatever reason(s).

Most males don't believe another male who is bragging, especially at younger ages. We pretend to believe, but we don't. Now that doesn't stop some guys from validating by asking some supposedly compliant female out on a date and then trying to score.

I do believe in the power of word-of-mouth advertising, so I really didn't have a problem with the girl talk I recorded.

Larry

Larry,

You said
In one way these comments would give me comfort, because she is seeing this is about her. On the other hand, her closing comment would scare me 'she got infatuated with someone who wasn't real.'

So what happens when she runs into someone who is "real"? I think her ability to read men should have little to do with things don't you? After all she is married to you, there is no need to be reading other men and their intentions if she is in love with you and committed to you.

Are these statements the source of your concern??? I would think so. So do you "protect" her from men she cannot read? She is saying she does need protection isn't she?

Larry, I find I tend to agree with folks from Texas.

JL

PS: Say Harry Wilson's War on DVD the other night. My W and I loved it. The good old days of Texas politics. I was struck by one scene in that movie when the actors Ned Beaty, his W, Wilson (Tom Hanks), Julie Roberts are in Afgan. It is a cool seen because it is clear who really runs things. And it wasn't the two congressmen.

LOL! Still_Crazy - my wife wants to get a concealed carry permit. How's that for "no problem protecting myself?!?"

I guess I know what to get her for our anniversary.

I agree. I'm not really "chomping at the bit" though. I've had these sorts of discussions several times before and simply got tired of it and basically now think "let them believe whatever they want to believe" and it's not worth my time trying to explain WHAT and WHY I believe what I do unless someone wants to have a serious discussion rather than just an argument.



Whether or not it's "most" or "many" or "a few" I couldn't say, not having done a survey and am unaware of any specific survey.

Then there's the issue of "what God?" It would seem as though it begs a definition of terms, wouldn't you think?

Regardless, referring back to my first responsive paragraph, I basically decided it was futile to discuss these sorts of things with some folks a few years ago when I had a somewhat "heated" exchange with WAT and 2long. When 2 long finally made the declarative statement that "NO ONE who believed in creation COULD be a Scientist, regardless of any professional degrees," I decided it was hopelessly biased against any alternative possibility of, or to, "Science as god." According to Ben Stein's latest documentary, "Expelled," it would seem any mention of any alternative is academic "suicide" for educators today where the "Peers" will not "brook" any alternative theory to their chosen "factual" theory or model.

It is interesting, though, when you consider more and more of scientific inquiry seems to be getting closer and closer to the biblical account of creation. You mentioned quantum mechanics, and I get a "kick" out of quantum physics trying to "explain" the origin of the universe as some "bubble" that expanded out of "nothing." Sounds strangely like "ex nihilo" if you know what I mean.

There there's the "gospel according to public schools," that evolution is a proven FACT and that, contrary to things such a the Biogenetic Law, Thermodynamics, etc., life somehow "magically" (or should I say fortuitously) DID arise out of NON-life, managed to survive AND self-replicate.

But it would be interesting to "kick the tires" of this sort of discussion with a scientist who values Science and not "scientism." Maybe when you get back we could do that if you'd like to as an "other topic" sort of thing.

And btw, that lady on the plane, she believed what she believed for the same reason "evolution" is accepted as the "way" things originated. She WANTED to believe it, regardless of whether or not the facts supported the belief. Isn't that pretty much the same sort of thing as when we hear some WS say, "well God wouldn't have brought him or her into my life if he didn't want me to have an affair?"

Ahhh.....it's all just relative to what we want anyway. Or so it certainly seems a lot of the time.

Have a safe trip!

FH,

Evolution is a theory and an "evolving" one at that. It works to explain many things with regard to the how, but not the why.

I agree such discussions are really best done face to face because they tend to be wide ranging and challenging. But recall that thermodynamics is a set of laws that have no known failure point.

I also think part of the issues of what is taught is that people are forgetting that science is about HOW something works or is. It is not about why. Science is required to be predictive and supportable by repeatable scientific experiments.

That is why phenomena such as the "paranormal" are not a science. They MAY exist, but repeatable experiments have never been done.

My point if we are going to teach science we should. If we are going to teach beleifs we should. One should not be confused for the other.

Just thoughts, now I must hit the road.

God Bless,

JL

PS: FH one last thing, in my opinion you have grown and grown as a contributor on this site. I have a great deal of respect for your approach and effectiveness (sp) on this site.

ME TOO!


That was a fabulous movie, and VERY TRUE! [tho it was Charlie Wilson, JL! ;)] I got a good laugh when the hayseed congressman from Lufkin asked the Jewish Defense Minister to "arm Muslims!"

Great posts, JL! Your perspective has been a real eye opener and I very much agree with what you said about religion and science.

I agree, but the problem right now is that "scientists" want to teach "evolution" and "naturalism" AS the only belief that can "explain" what facts and data we DO have.

They want to convert "opinion" and hypothesis and theory as Proven, reproducable, FACT.



I do understand the Laws of Thermodynamics, and as you said, they have no known "failure point." But I guarantee you that proponents of "evolution only" will try to "explain away" the facts of entropy, etc. in terms of the earth not being a "closed system" where the Sun provides the necessary "extra" energy. It says little about difference between the availabilit of energy and the conversion of that energy to useful work.

Then there's the likewise "small" problem of Information Theory.

Like I said, it could be an interesting discussion, but I have to be candid and say I'm not sure others would agree because the "existence of God" becomes a necessary part of such a discussion. That's why they don't want "God" even spoken of or alluded to in "public schools," regardless of whether or not said public may also believe in God. It's called, in my opinion, "indoctrination of youth."



I appreciate the thought. I'm not sure if I'm very effective or not, I guess I have to leave that judgment up to those who may think something I've said has been helpful to them or not. I have found that most do not want to talk about the "faith" part of their lives or their recovery efforts, and perhaps it's partly because I make "no bones" about MY perspective being grounded in a traditional Christian faith. The liberalization of the Christian church has somewhat paralleled the liberalization of the American culture...and I think it's leading to a much bigger problem when the "rules" become relative and subjective.

But from a personal standpoint I will say this: The reality of infidelity in your life, either as BS or WS, WILL cause you to either grow or shrivel up, but it will NOT allow the status quo to be maintained. It generally comes down to being "forced by circumstances" to choose a direction to "go in" and the guts to to try to maintain the course no matter how "rocky" the seas get before reaching "safe harbor."

Safety on the trip, JL. Talk with you when you have the time!

God bless.

Perhaps on one end of the spectrum women need protecting because they are considered akin to property?

On the other end, FWW pursued OM relentlessly. He even blamed the entire VLTA on her. If you were to ask him, poor defenseless men need protecting from women and women are spiders.

With prayers,

Engineers, huh? LOL, I think you are safe. If you ever find yourself in an uncomfortable position, toss a brainteaser or a pocket protector across the room and get out of the way.

90 some of us were in my freshman class in EE. Four years later 15 of us graduated. Not one of us 15 went on a date during college. (But we tended to make up for it in grad school.)

ed: I remember one time I could have double dated in college with a friend of mine and his girlfriend’s friend. I begged off about an hour beforehand when I found out I could get extra time on the mainframe.

Edd: An engineering student arrives for a Saturday morning computer lab 20 minutes late. His friend asks what happened, you are never late. The first engineer says, “Well, my alarm didn't go off and I thought I was going to miss lab entirely. As I was running across the quad this beautiful girl rides right up to me on her bicycle, jumps off, rips off all her clothes and says ‘Take want you want.’ So I took the bicycle since I was late for lab.”

With prayers,

This reminds me of the Galileo quote: ""Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe."

I think both Descartes and Pascal said it too.

With prayers,

JL,

Just one more word on the subject of crying.

I would certainly agree with you that one had better not be crying on the battlefield. Or in a sporting event. I would do not do well in the military,or professional sports or any other number of professions.

But we must be careful, very careful, when saying that tears are used as a weapon. My husband would actually tell you that Iuse my tears that way. But he is wrong. I am sure there are people who can turn the tears off and on, but I am not one of them, and I am sure I am not alone.

There are many reasons I cry easily and I am ashamed of NONE of them. Bt the one I understand the most is that this is the way God made me.

My spiritual gift is service. I am empathetic and DELIGHT in filling people's needs, in trying to be one step ahead of them as far as their needs are concerned.. This is what I get paid to do in my job. i am very good at it. The company I work for likes my work very much and my H LOVES this gift of mine. But....the other side of the coin is that I can not just turn this sensitivity off. Being sensitive to others makes me sensitive.

The impotrtant issue to me regarding tears is that I NOT use it as a weapon. The sensitivity that God gave me is a gift I value.
Just my view of things.

WH2LE

No, you are NOT alone WH2LE...I understand very well what you are saying...I am POSITIVE that I cannot control crying...to me it just IS...I would have made a terrible actress, because there is NO WAY that I could turn tears on and off at will...And yanno, I have also had times where I WANTED to cry and could not...No way have I ever used tears as a manipulation tool...

I enjoyed reading JL's stuff though...Prompted me to call Mr. W and ask if he has ever felt that I do this...I really didn't think he would think so...He said, "Well, you rarely ever cry BECAUSE of me, so no."...VERY TRUE...Mr. W doesn't do things that would produce tears for me...not mean things anyway...He's done some sweet things that have made me tear up though!

Anyway WH2LE, just wanted you to know that "I hear ya"!

Mrs. W

Mrs. W,

Thank you ever so much for your encouraging words. Oh now look, you made me cry!!!!! LOL!!!

WH2LE

Sure property is one consideration and so is eat up with estrogen or the hormonal soup that makes a woman a female versus testosteron challenged males. OTOH, in much of the animal kingdom, females ARE the predators. I guess it just depends on the person.

Larry

So the bottom line is that it just is; some women need protecting, others not so much to the point where they are the predators, not the males.

It seems to me that cognitive dissonance confuses the issues. Given the complexity of female emotional thought processes versus those of most males, I can see where the confusion of the moment causes some women to ultimately do what is NOT in their best interest and therefor need some level of protection through a Dad telling a young male he better not push or else.

I thought I might get some revelation from some lady on here who was moved to share something from the vast female conspiracy, but that didn't happen except maybe obliquely. I still grin at the recording I made AND at some of the candid, blunt, viewpoints I hear my wife and her sister sharing. Scares me sometimes, it does, it does.

I guess the bottom line is a little complex or a whole lot complex as you choose to look at it. I see that women LIKE to feel protected, which makes them feel safe. I will add that MAY mean, safe from themselves. At least that is what I got out of the unsaid comments.

Thanks for everyone who commented and who will do so in the future, should they be so moved.

Larry

Just for the record, I believe that I do not have the smarts to understand God's mind. I see nothing in the observed record of evolution to rule out that God's hand guided that process. We do have the God given smarts to see the evidence placed before us. So by that, we can observe and conclude that "Oh, he did it that way, my, wasn't that clever. I wonder what we will discover next."

Interestingly enough, the study of DNA has discovered that humans can trace their ancestry back to one female, called "Eve," for obvious reasons. So scientists are actually giving more than lip service to the concept of "Eve" to help the sceptics understand, they have actually found proof. I have wondered what Einstein would have made of that when his ego attempted to discount God. See, you can't fix stupid, but you can cure ignorance so long as ego doesn't get in the way.

See, Einstein was as eat up with ignorance as the TV Preacher who can't pronounce "Godah" as one syllable as he tries to convince us you can learn everything you need to know about salvation just by reading the Bible and sending him money.

Then there is what we don't know, yet. Discovery of fact and the scientific method has jointly made this a better world. And for those who would allow it, a better but not complete understanding of God's method.

Larry