I hope in some way this post helps someone realize and change things about them before it's too late. If your SO has mentioned they feel controlled then please look inside yourself and see if what you do is real. You may not even realize it (like me) and I don't want anyone in that position to be in the position I'm in now. I caused myself this pain and I coulld haave stopped it long ago. PLEASE stop it for your sake before it's too late. You don't want to go thru what I'am right now. If it helps 1 person save a marriage then it's worth everyone reading it.


Steps you can take to help eliminate your controlling behavior:

Step1 Ask yourself why you want to stop being controlling. Write down in a journal how being controlling is a problem in your life.

Step2 Increase your awareness of when you are controlling. Whenever you find yourself acting this way, note it in your journal and write down what the situation was, what you were thinking and feeling, what you said or did that was controlling, and the effect it had on others. Do this for a few weeks.

Step3 Read over your self-observations, thinking about why you are controlling. What does this behavior do for you?

Step4 Notice if there are any patterns that can show you why you act this way. Are there attitudes, expectations or beliefs you have about how others should be, how life should be, and so forth? Write them down.

Step5 Decide if you are willing to challenge these underlying attitudes that fuel your need to control.


Step6 Think of an alternative attitude or perspective you could take when you get the impulse to control. (This will often be the opposite of what you came up with in step 4.) Examples might be: "I can trust others to do things," "There are more ways than my way," "Connecting with others is more important than controlling others."


Step7 Think about alternative ways you could act if you took on these new perspectives. For example, you might be silent, listen or let others do it their way.


Step8 Write down these new perspectives and behaviors and place them where you will see them regularly - for example, on your car dashboard, mirror, computer screen or refrigerator.


Step9 Try to catch yourself anytime you find yourself being controlling and stop yourself as soon as you can. Remind yourself of the alternative attitude and try to practice the alternative behavior.



I'm sure there can be more steps and help thought of but below is a list of things I have done and what I surmise my wife's feelings were towards those actions.


Following is a list of what I believe to be your feelings when the things I do happen. I will do the best I can

with this list and I'm sure there are things I will not list and feelings I might not understand and I hope you

can help me with those. I want to understand and see your view point and I think the book "The 5 love

languages" has helped me to understand a great deal. It gives both sides of the perspective and also

goes into the mindset of what it's like from the other side of things to help understand why needs,

wants and feelings are so important and why they change the makeup of a relationship.

Please understand these are not listed in any particular order of importance and by no means do I

take my statements as fact but just interpetation for now until you can help me to better understand.



1. When I withdraw.


I think there's many feelings you can have towards this action and I'm sure as I learn more

that the list could grow.

a. It might make you feel unimportant when I withdraw after you express your feelings or try to

communicate with me.

b. It might make you feel I think your opinion or feeling is wrong.

c. It might make you feel or think I don't value your opinion or feelings.

d. It might make you feel I'm just trying to get my way by with holding attention or affection from you.

e. It might make you feel I'm not willing to compromise or work out a solution.

f. It might make you feel as though I think your not important enough for me to value your feelings.

g. It might make you think I don't care enough for you to communicate any further.

h. It might make you feel as if I'm trying to control or manipulate the situation or you.

i. It might make you feel I'm just trying to get what I want.

j. It might make you feel isolated and alone.

k. It might make you feel that I'm blaming you for something.

l. It might make you feel hurt and pain.

m. It might make you feel insecure about our marriage.


2. Starting with no or saying no.

a. It might make you feel I'm saying your wrong or that your opinion is wrong.

b. It might make you feel I'm not truely listening to what your saying.

c. It might make you feel as if what you expressed is not important enough to me.

d. It might make you feel as if I'm trying to control or manipulate the situation.

e. It might make you feel I don't care about what you said.

f. It might make you feel I'm denying you have those feelings.


3. Critisizing you.

a. It might make you feel I'm saying your wrong.

b. It might make you feel low and less of a person.

c. It might make you feel I'm trying to control, manipulate or deny you and/or your feelings.

d. It might make you feel hurt and pain.

e. It might make you feel that I'm abandoning you and turning my back on you.

f. It might make you feel I'm not accepting you for who you are.

g. It might make you feel isolated and lonely.

h. It might make you feel your not loved and wanted.

i. It might make you feel used and abused.

j. It might make you feel rejection and unaccepted.

k. It might make you feel helpless.

l. It might make you feel your not good enough.

m. It might make you feel your to blame and at fault.


4. When I spend all my time on the lifestyle and not quality time with you.

a. It might make you feel I don't care enough for you.

b. It might make you feel your not important to me until I need something.

c. It might make you feel unwanted and unloved.

d. It might make you feel used and neglected.

e. It might make you feel your less of a priority to me.

f. It might make you feel I only want to be with you in order to be in it.

g. It might make you feel I don't want to have sex with you and your a second choice.

h. It might make you feel hurt and pain.

i. It might make you feel unloved and unwanted by me.

j. It might make you feel lonely, controlled and manipulated.

k. It might make you feel rejection and unaccepted.

l. It might make you feel insecure about our marriage.


5. When I turned my back on you and didn't hold you when you cried.

a. it might make you feel hurt and pain.

b. It might make you feel isolated and lonely.

c. It might make you feel I don't care about your feelings or you.

d. It might make you feel I'm trying to hurt you.

e. It might make you feel manipulated and controlled (I believe this is true
but I need help understanding it please).

f. It might make you feel unloved and unwanted by me.

g. It might crush your heart and faith in me and us .

h. It might make you feel used and abused by me.

i. It might make you feel insecure about our marriage.


6. Having to go to this extreme to get me to work this hard and change.

a. It might make you feel I'm doing it for other reasons.

b. It might make you feel hurt and pain because it came to this.

c. It might make you feel lonely and unloved because you can no longer
allow me to get close to you.

d. It might make you feel that it will never stay changed.

e. It might make you feel you can never give me another chance.

f. It might make you feel that I never listened to you or your feelings.

g. It might make you feel anger and animosity towards me.

h. It might make you feel as though you had failed.

i. It might make you feel unloved and unwanted.

j. It might make you feel the situation is hopeless.

k. It might make you feel helpless in saving our marriage.


7. When I fail to communicate properly.

a. It might make you feel manipulated and controlled.

b. It might make you feel I don't care about you or us.

c. It might make you feel I don't care about your feelings or thoughts.

d. It might make you feel unloved, unwanted and unimportant.

e. It might make you feel I have alterior motives behind it.

f. It might make you feel insecure about our marriage.


8. When I don't listen or try harder to understand your feelings better.

a. It might make you feel unloved, unwanted or unimportant by and to me.

b. It might make you feel manipulted or controlled.

c. It might maake you feel like I don't care about what your trying to say.

d. It might make you feel I'm trying to say your wrong.

e. It might make you feel I'm not willing to compromise.

f. It might make you feel less of a person and humiliated.

g. It might make you feel hurt, pain and helplessness.


9. When I don't show I love you the way you need or let your love bank run dry.

a. It might make you feel I don't care about you or our marriage.

b. It might make you feel I don't want you to be happy.

c. It might make you feel manipulated, controlled, abused and used.

d. It might make you feel hurt, pain and helplessness.

e. It might make you feel your not a priority in my life or that
your below other things that are in my life.

f. It might make you feel your not lovable and worthless.

g. It might make you feel your to blame.

Does anyone have any comments, suggestions or additions?

Hi, ezb...

I like the Steps. I don't understand your surmise part, though.

How about a list of reasons you have when you choose to withdraw (which I believe can be another form of control) and finding the unhealthy ones and the healthy ones?

Am I close?

Could the list you made in your surmise, though, also be what you think and feel when your W withdraws?

I totally understand the desire to share with others what we learn...how much I saw in other marriages what were habits in my own...and once my eyes popped open, wanting to communicate it to everyone.

Another way I found my controlling fantasy was surmising, guessing and assuming how my DH felt/thought/believed...same thing I used to do when I chose my actions based on his possible response.

LA

Hi LA. Thought I was done posting but I think what I will do now is post my discoveries and changes and hope they help others and in some way help me gain strength thru my knowledge. I can't focus on the negative anymore other then to extract changes.

The surmise is: The actions are listed as numbers, the letters are listed as how I think it made her feel.

I have found i withdraw to avoid conflict (can be good and bad but mostly bad because it avoids communication and compromise), give up any control I might have, because I feel powerless and give in (which actually turned to her ending up giving in so I wouldn't "pout" anymore which then I became addicted to because I subjectively found it got me my way). And yes you were close. Withdrawing was the no. 1 on the list though and it definately became a control and manipulate tatic for me (how was I so blind and stupid????) COMMUNICATION AND CLOSENESS PEOPLE JUST DO IT!!!

My wife never withdrew she always wanted to communicate. The only time she ever did she had reason to (hurt, too much pain, giving in, etc..)

Actions based on possible response......now there's a definate control and manipulate method I can add to my list of not to do's. Thank you again.

Thank you for responding, ezb...


I understand you to say that the payoff you received in yourself when you withdraw is to avoid conflict...what you perceive as conflict...and you know see where it avoids communication and compromise...compromise is interesting to me...are you saying you mostly withdraw when you perceive a compromise may be necessary? Do you withdraw (I'm caught between using the past tense and the present...had to pick one) if there isn't a problem to be solved, but understood, as well?

so you acted from fear...am act of self-protection, and now one you see actually attacked your marriage by not protecting the partnership first?


You see withdrawing as giving up your control...would you consider that at no time, in reality, can any human actually give up their control of their choices, themselves? We can do so by illusion...we can seemingly abdicate our responsibility (healthy control)...doesn't mean we really can. Sure can experience it through our beliefs like we did.

We are inherently powerful and limited...in the human design, we can only be the cause, control and cure of our own selves...not anyone else. It's constant...doesn't mean that's how we experience ourselves. When we change our beliefs to acknowledge and live from this truth, life changes drastically for us.

We don't experience the urge to withdraw as deeply or urgently because loss of our control is no longer real. We can't lose it. Sticks like gum. We also no longer fear as greatly others controlling us, taking our control, either.

Fear simmers down. Comes directly from our previous experience of losing control, being controlled, being the cause and cure and others being the cause and cure of us.

Big difference from changing our beliefs. Seems to me like in your time posting on MB you've changed your actions and your beliefs...have a new perspective.

When you change your belief, and then you feel the old "I'm being controlled" becomes a signal...not a reality...which is different...means you've slipped back into believing the old beliefs again. Takes practice and repetition to set new beliefs firmly in us...takes time. Doesn't mean we don't get it.

So we stop choosing to react to our fear, and instead, hold it, know it and act from our love, anyway.

When you withdraw from fear, would you consider you are controlling...cutting off, like you said, communication--and connection--that you are telling your brain you're being attacked...justifies retreat...and makes the other person your enemy...someone to be run from?

Could that be in your surmise list of responses, too? That when you withdraw, you are telling YOURSELF those things, too?


Along those same lines...would you ponder this...what you do to yourself, you'll do to others? If you beat yourself up, call yourself names to MOTIVATE you to change, will you not do those same things to others?

I believe Harley's identification of LBs goes both ways...you eliminate them from doing them to others...make it a boundary...and you dont' cross it with yourself, either. Otherwise, you ensure your own sabotage and that of your relationships.


Would you consider making a distinction for yourself, for clarity? Your wife didn't withdraw in an unhealthy way (that's what I heard you say)...and she removed herself, temporarily, in a healthy way, when she felt overwhelmed, etc.? She was responsible for her feelings and didn't react to them...she chose to mind them (they are real drugs released inside us) until the flooding stops and clarity returns...made it about her, not you making her.

Withdraw--unhealthy way to process. Remove, healthy...intent matters, doesn't it? Hers was to continue to communicate, resume it, when she could hear and share clearly...yours became a way to manipulate, manuever.

So, now you change your permissions...sounds like you have. A boundary around yourself is to not withdraw (not react, respond)...and to be responsible for your emotions, their levels and affect on you, to remove temporarily.

In your new permissions, please put in the second part of removal...you gotta state what you're doing and when you'll be back...no opened ended stuff (like in withdrawal). Maybe would change a lot of those "made her feel" answers right there...with this action.


That's how I catch myself...seeing where my intent was when I reacted...which means my own persmission to react, not act. Choosing to act, not react (flipping it around) gives me time to consider, check the action against my own code, and then to act from respect and in alignment with my beliefs.

The other way I lived was my hidden beliefs acting me...which is acting out/in. Really tough way to live...hard on you, your loved ones and all your relationships. I know because that was my experience. Right now, you're freeing yourself from a lot of past pain caused by your reactivity (automatic responses)...great to know it's a choice, not a condition, eh?

Do you struggle with your list of "Not to do's"? I mean, where you have the goal (obviously), you know you have the desire, and still you seem to do them, anyway?

LA

First off you seem to be bringing a lot of understanding and promoting my thought process LA. Thank you.


I believe I withdrew to avoid compromise or to avoid having to give up control or in the end to get what I wanted. I hate to use the word "conflict" nowadays. It automatically starts things out negatively. I just haven't found the right word yet. Yes even understanding I withdrew because me undeerstanding something meant that I had a different POV and to understand it might mean I had to admit my POV was wrong or there was a better POV aand when your controlling thats just not something you want to do.

Yes I protected my view instead of protecting the marriage. Typical trait of a controlling and manipulating person. Not protecting yourself first means you might have to give up some control.




I have a lot of work to do still. I think at this point I've only changed my understanding and beliefs which I think come before you can change your actions. I have changed some actions though. I only say that because I want to keep my guard up on not slipping back to "old"(taking a positive angle but also looking at it like an alcoholic might in the fact that once always then always will be) ways. I have to look at it like that right now so I keep on my toes and can fully recognize all the patterns and warning signs of when I start to be controlling. Hard part right now is my wife is controlling and demanding it seems to me but it has given me a hard dose of reality in what it was like for her(to some extent).




It was a defense mode yes. I dont believe I thought I was being attacked really. I know she loves me and would never purposely attack me. I believe I just didn't want to budge. It started out that I didn't want things to escalate. That I seen emotions getting high and didn't want it to turn into a full blown fight. Which at times we all need to step away and talk about it later but the difference was it would dwell in me and I couldn't separate it till it was resolved (mostly in my favor). Until then I would pout and sulk which is typical of a controlling person until such time that she would give in.


Yes I'm beating myself up right now but thats ok I need that at this point so I can learn more. The corner is coming though but with recent events (shes letting the divorce go thru and less then 3 weeks left) it makes it really hard to concentrate and believe in us being able to reconcile. I know I need to do all this for me and that is why I'm doing it but my goal is for us to reconcile and be happy again and anything less means I've failed. I made promises to myself that I would not fall short of that goal.



Yes thats exactly right, thank you. And yes mine BECAME that way. It never started out like that.


Actions based on possible response......now there's a definate control and manipulate method I can add to my list of not to do's. Thank you again




Yes I struggle with that list but it gets better everyday. The impending date doesn't help me at all though and I guess I can't expect it to not hurt but with just finding out the other day that shes letting it go thru after all the work and effort makes it kind of hard ya know? Makes me think there's no light at the end now when before I seen light and knew my goal wass to reach it and one thing I've learned about myself and thats when I set a goal I reach it.

I must say "Thank you" to you ezb and to LA; I'm learning in leaps and bounds by this thread.

Great to hear. I myself em learning just writing the things. It helps me understand better and I'm so greatful to my lovely wife for giving me the project she did. I'm also learning a lot from LA, it takes me some thought process to understand it all but thats a good thing.

Bring,

go ahead and express what you've learned. It might just help me, LA and others learn more also. If there's one thing I have learned and thats a different POV brings out more learning.

To better explain why I don't like the word conflict anymore is because right off the bat it creates a negative emotion. How can positive results come from a negative start? Well I imagine they can eventually and sometimes you have to step back to move forward but negative emotions and expressions never help and I think part of changing my mind set and habits needs to be eliminating the word conflict from my vocabulary.

I'm only on the second chapter so far but the book "The high conflict couple, a dialectical behavior therapy guide to finding peace, intimacy and validation" by Alan E. Fruzzetti is looking very deep and already starting to make me realize more on constructive and destructive communication. So far I recommend it.

Another thing I've learned about be controlling and how much it hurts is that the controller dictates when, how and what communication takes place. It must have been very frustrating for her to sit and wonder and want so bad to communicate properly and about certain things on her mind but yet not be able to. I understand all that now and it's a big thing I have learned about what unhealthy withdrawl actually does to the other person. It cuts like a knife and quick to the heart. My wife's withdrawl is definately unhealthy for me but I have to see that it's healthy for her and the reason it's healthy is because it has been so unhealthy for her to open up herself and her emotions to me because I have continually hurt them and her.

Man how stupid and blind was I? How could I not see all this information before? All I had to do was stop and listen to my wife. I'm doing that now but is it really just too late. A matter of a month would have made a difference maybe even a couple weeks. Hard not knowing if your months of hard work now will pay off. Guess it's a bad day so I better go now. Coming here at bad times has proven to not be good for me and my concentration on change.

Ok it's time. It was time long ago so here goes:


My selfishness, my greed and my infatuation for the lifestyle caused me to learn how to manipulate, control, hurt my wife and among other things to destroy the bond we had and our marriage. It caused me to take away her self esteem, her pride and her self worth. It caused me to destroy the loving bond she had to me.

I'm think I'm going to be sick.

ezb, nothing has to be permanent. If she loved you once, she can learn to again. Not a guarantee, of course, but look at the promising person you have become! Much better marriage material! Hang tough!

She still loves me and always will I know. But if she can't ever be in love with me again then nothing matters because I'll never be able to love anyone else.

Ok I have to get off this train of thought now that I'm at where I'am (in no way means I'll forget it). Shes coming tonight for our idividual session and I need to concentrate, be upbeat and positive and be ready to listen.

I asked her this morning if there was one word she could say to describe what I need to focus my changes on what would it be? (I had a gut feeling from all shes been saying what it was but I wanted no grey area and I've done enough screwing up thinking I knew).

Her answer: Control/Manipulation.

How much have learned as an adult through punishment? Through negative reinforcement? Would you consider that as children, learning the world, the essential lesson is to distinguish what we do want from what we don't want...hence, punishment teaches what we don't want...and that consequences come...no matter what.

As an adult, the freedom of choice is huge...can seem that our independence makes us even free of consequences...and it doesn't. IME, we learn more through postiive reinforcement than negative...because we cannot punish ourselves into love, joy, contentment...what lures us, instead, is a series of false payoffs...temporary fixes...shortcuts...and the smallest ones can trap us if we are reveling in the ABSENCE of punishing ourselves...

Hence, we reinforce our own false payoffs...for that bit of peace away from the constant Judge in our the back of minds, criticizing, labeling, (AOing, DJing and SDing ourselves)...so whatever will distract us from these anxiety-inducing actions...like avoiding conflict (false payoff) sneaks back in...

For relief from the constant conflict that self-punishment brings inside you, which you permit and promote...for your own good...how is that really working for you?

I believe it works against us...an attack against self is what is behind our poor decisions, our bad actions and our false beliefs.

We adults...we decide what we want and what we don't want. Tell your brain, "I don't want this." Your brain will listen. When you do well on your list...say, "This is what I want."

What comes to mind is that those statements, made often as children, were said about outcomes, weren't they? "I want you to love me. I want you to laugh with me (safe). I don't want to be in trouble." Tough for us as adults to not mix up our wishfulness for our determined choices.

The wishfulness is a signal from ourselves...up to our adult selves to know the difference.

I very much agree with your analogy to an alcoholic...recoverying control addict...right here. It is a drug because it releases one in our heads...we deal it to ourselves. Going to Al-Anon really helped with this for me.

I know you are currently in one of the most painful times of your life...about to be divorced...is there anything you can do to slow it down or stop it, btw?

When you determine what is within your power and what isn't, then you're back to reality, to just today...not three weeks, not one day in the future. Right now, are you loving yourself in a healthy way...are you in Plan A?

About the light at the end of the tunnel...

Be your own light...

LA

Ezb...what if you chose to see conflict as a positive? To have conflict, we must connect...even internal conflict has our focus on our stuff?

Don't get me going on the positive/negative question...think polarity...with humans, conflict deepens intimacy...can bring about intensity so that self-image gets dropped in places...where we tell it like it really is...and admit we've been lying by omission, for our self-image, to keep peace, to manipulate our spouse...instead of radical honesty.

What do you mean by negative emotions? Do you mean emotions you don't like to feel?

Sometimes, anger feels powerful, not negative...sometimes guilt feels reassuring; shame feels like home; frustration feels like investment...what if emotions just are, not positive or negative?

Signals bringing you information, not judgment, feelings not causing feelings...informative to you about your beliefs, your thoughts and perceptions?

Wow...the book your reading sounds difficult to me...I hope you're enjoying it. A basic of communication I learned was a famous saying (and yeah, I forget who said it)...but it's on posters, so it's got to be true:

Strive first to understand, then be understood.

From that you'll better see which is your intent as you communicate...more to the first, constructive...mostly on the second (like mapping out what you're going to say back, and then their possible response), most likely destructive.

Back to negative emotions idea...would you consider some people can feel anger as love? Anger as pain? Pain as love? Overlaps from growing up...that love may be experienced when they are defended furiously...passion evident when voices rise...proof of love in destructive ways?

And we bring ourselves into marriage, pick our partners to work out those overlaps and spaces in us? (BIO, can you hear Harville in that?) So your CA was important to your wife...as was her equamity, willingness to go along to get along, too...and possibly her feeling loved in her own resentment? Feeling righteous? Safe from intimacy and abandonment?

Who knows? Matters that you picked each other for this dance...and know it's your choice to believe that all things work together for good--that God didn't make no junk, no how, ever--and by striving to determine an outcome...that's where your focus is.

LA

It's what I have to do at this moment so I can make my self concentrate more on making the change permanent. To feel some of the pain she felt that I caused her. So I'll remember this pain and never want to give it or relive it again.


She has said she needs this for her and for me to try to stop it other then changing would be me trying to do the very evil that got us to this point to begin with and that is to control the situation. The only thing I can do is change and hope she sees it and the ways I'm making it permanent. In the meantime I have to do what I haven't in the past .... respect and listen to her feelings about it. Maybe then we can both see the light but it won't happen if I revert to what got us here to begin with.

The word conflict itself promotes a negative off the bat to me so Ihave to change that I feel.



I mean emotions that create negative actions and reactions. That emotion has to be controlled in communication. But I see your point of emotions can be not positive or negative they just are what they are due to your feelings. I think I will look into that more.

Thanks for considering your beliefs about emotions.

Like they cause negative actions and reactions.

What if it's habitual choices in reactions/actions? Sure can feel by now that the emotions themselves cause the choice...because it's been the standing choice (anger=shutdown) for most of our lives.

Remains a choice...from a belief...that emotions cause, control and cure. And they don't.

Choices, do, though, for ourselves. Helped me a lot to reconcile that emotions are results of our choices...not the other way around.

LA

Exactly. My choice now is to change my Controlling/Manipulating behavior and to respect and listen to her feelings. Only then is it possible for positive emotions to arise from her thus improving the situation and strengthening our bond once again.