TTM,

Let me say that I know where you're coming from. It is incredibly hard and incredibly difficult moving forward. There are indeed some tough times ahead. That fear of loneliness and that sense of loss hurts deeply. For you I can only imagine how much harder it is since it looked like you guys were going to recover for a time there.

I does NOT last forever! It seems like it will, but it won't. I was going through difficulties in my professional life too. I was job hunting like mad. I had a series of great interviews and I was really proud of how well I did in them despite my troubles at home. It gave me something to focus on and to look forward to. Then one after another, the rug would get pulled out. In every instance, the jobs that I really wanted ended up getting yanked for reasons I couldn't help. Someone else in the company decided to transition into it, the hiring company was getting bought by another, the budget fell through and the empty position was eliminated, etc... And because my current job had changed as a result of a buyout, most of my work friends were now gone. Most of my family lives out of state. And I lost a bunch of couple friends when the XW left because they were mostly friends that she brought into the R 12 years ago. I was truly alone.

And all the while I got to watch as my XW walked through the house, boxing stuff up, preparing to move out. It literally becomes like a nightmare that you can't wake up from.

Today, I'm still looking for a new job, but I've somewhat settled into the one I have. It's the whole "letting go and letting God thing" that gets talked about here. And it's when I came to realize that bad things can still happen, even when we're being really good. I now understand that's why we do the right things because they're the right things to do. I'm going to say this again, because it's really, really important:

Do the right things, because they're the right things to do!!! Don't do them because you expect God or Karma (or whatever) to reward you. When we start thinking like that, we start taking permission to do bad things when bad things happen to us. From some of your recent posts, I fear that you are flirting with this path. I firmly believe that we're hear for a reason and our experiences happen for a reason. Along the way, we have the freedom to make individual choices, and it's those choices as to how we'll be judged later.

Your STBXW can act ugly and mean and selfish all she wants. She can be unreasonable and illogical and look for ways to hurt you and to take advantage of you. Her actions don't give you carte blanche permission to behave badly on your own accord. Just please remember that.

I know what it's like to be lonely and bored at home. To watch TV by yourself. To eat by yourself. I am the grand champion of it now and you know what? I came to really, really like it! I discovered that I no longer had to sit through Dancing with the Stars and The Bachelor. I could watch The History Channel until I OD'd on it. I could go to whatever restaurant I wanted to. I could ogle women with too-low tops and too-high miniskirts. I could go to movies by myself and I didn't have to share my popcorn!

I finally realized that I didn't actually need anyone to fill any void in my life. There was no void! That is a myth too many people are conditioned to believe.

My advice is to reconsider dating at this particular juncture. At least until after the D is final. Try and get through a year's worth of calendar dates without her before bringing someone new into your life. Having someone around just to have someone around isn't the right reason IMO.

But you WILL get through this. This might be the worst thing you will ever have to get through. I hope my D was the worst thing I will ever have to get through. But get through it I did, and get through it you shall.

Again Dr. Seabird is completely correct in his advice and I will second everything he says.

My divorce was the defining moment of my life. I can make most anyone cry telling my story. For quite a while, it took everything that I had mentally, emotionally, and physically just to survive, i.e. to keep living. It took ADs, weekly therapist visits, and tons of support from family and friends to emerge unto the other side.

The whole thing is a process. What you're feeling now is part of the process and you need to feel it, no matter how bad it is, to fulfill this part of the process. Research the stages of grief, you are grieving over the death of your marriage and you should be prepared to deal with the various phases that you will experience.

You don't have to go through this alone. Now is the time to see who are your true friends and to lean upon them to assist you but not to carry you through this experience. Your family can also be of assistance. There may be various support groups in your area. No one can take your pain away and grant you happiness. Only you can do this for yourself.

You have my contact information. Feel free to reach out at any time. I've been thee, I survived it, and some might say that I'm actually thriving now.

You can survive and then thrive too.

TTM:

I don't know that I have posted to you before, but I have followed your divorce thread, and I did read some of your original thread when it was happening...although I was going through my own marital crisis at the time. There are some similarities between our situations too, such as a failing business, a selfish and vindictive STBXW who has no friends and a complete unwillingness to compromise, and our tendency/prior history of bailing out the STBXW.

That being said, your post yesterday stuck with me...the feelings of being lost and wandering around...the emptiness and loneliness...they will subside over time and you will get through this. This is a necessary part of the healing process! You can try to find ways to dull or avoid the pain like jumping into a new relationship too soon, or filling yourself with anger/hatred toward your STBX, but I didn't think this would be a positive choice for me. I needed to experience it and rebuild myself. I tried to find out where the emptiness and loneliness were coming from (other than the obvious reasons) because I used to really enjoy my alone time when I was married...why should it feel any different through divorce proceedings? The answer that I came up with is that my pain/emptiness/lost feelings were being driven from my belief that I failed. I failed to achieve my goal of being married forever and raising a close family...and therefore, I thought that I failed my children.

Then I realized that I didn't fail...it was just that I was internalizing resonsibility for the WHOLE marriage, not just my half. You've made many changes to yourself, so you've taken care of at least part of your responsibility. Your W has acknowledged your changes in her last email to you, but has still chosen to walk away. (I also noticed that she didn't acknowlege any contributions from her to rebuild a better M) So, feel the pain now, and go through the whole grieving process, and you will come to see YOUR VALUE again in the future. You will realize that overall you were a good H, and you will start to feel joy and excitement again, while the sadness dissipates.

And Seabird has made some excellent suggestions which also helped me come out the other side of this..."Do the next 'right' thing." It is easier to start feeling good about yourself and get through this phase in your life if you live your life by making good choices.

You will know when you are ready to date again...it may take six months, a year, or longer, but don't confuse the issues and start dating until it's your time. You will only be hurting yourself in the long run if you don't let the grieving process run its course.

LoBoy

Thanks to everyone for the continued support. It is much appreciated. I push myself so hard sometimes, that when I'm feeling down and beat, it's usually because I've not had enough sleep. A couple of good nights of rest, and I'm feeling like a new man again.

LoBoy, I really appreciate your perspectives, and words of support. In my head I know that half of the failure of my M is not mine. I also know that I did everything within my control to try and save it. The outcome wasn't mine to determine. I get it, and I can accept that. I'm not certain I've got that into my heart just yet. Each day that passes I'm getting better.

In a way, I feel like I've been alone for 18 months. Even when W and I started dating again, she refused to kiss me in front of the kids, and wouldn't sleep over with me. She kept her distance very large. We only spent a day and maybe one evening a week doing stuff together, so it was more like have a distant girlfriend than my W back. Not making a judgment here, it's just that, for me, I feel like I've been alone a long time. So dating now, doesn't feel that 'out of place'.

I keep coming back to the thinking that my story is far from over, and this series of events needed to transpire for me to learn the necessary lessons to grow and become truly strong.

Many of my business struggles have been caused because I was afraid to stand up for myself, and the things I wanted/needed. A lot like my marriage. So learning those lessons now, learning that I deserve love even when I say 'no', or that I can 'hold my ground' and still be open to other people ideas, has been really valuable and a lesson I had to learn.

I'm grateful today for the lessons this whole process has brought me, I'm a stronger, better person from it, and I have no idea what the future will bring, but I believe it's going to be really great!

-TTM

TTM,

May I suggest you read "No More Mr. Nice Guy". The subject is not what you think it will be. I found this book very helpful both in analyzing past behaviors and modifying current and future behaviors.

Thanks Dutch,

Can you give me the author of that? I just looked on amazon and there's a bunch of books with that title.

- TTM

Dr. Robert Glover. It is a very good book and I matched the diagnosis of the syndrome so exactly that I felt he had written the book just for my benefit. I highly recommend it to anyone who is clearly not a bad-boy.

Thanks Dutch, I just ordered it. I think it's really important for me to learn well how to say no in a kind and loving way. Boundary enforcement is something I've struggled with, but I'm really learning what it means now.

I'm doing good, and getting better. Thanks for the support.

- TTM

So yesterday STBXW sends me a txt mesg asking if we can get together and discuss summer plans for the kids. I had plans and couldn't meet her, but I suggested the next evening.(tonight)

I find this very odd, why would she want to get together? In the past she's always sent me an e-mail or we've talked on the phone. Why is she asking me for a meeting?

I guess I'm puzzled, it may be nothing, but this does seem odd to me since I've hired a lawyer and we're now fighting over the martial assets.

I'm nervous I'm going to be emotionally ambushed.. or she's going to try and pull something. Hmmm... an opportunity to work on my boundary skills perhaps?

Perspective anyone?

- TTM

TTM,

A face to face meeting has the highest bandwidth of information exchange. It also if far more possible to exert influence in a face to face meeting. Again, Seabird's suggestion of a Zen-like approach will work to your benefit. When you meet, if she acts very sweet, is complimentary and sympathetic, then you can be that she wants something that you will not want to give up easily. Most women are consummate actors and the very nature of acting is to deceive. Be careful without acting defensive. Maintain your wits if she pours on the charm. Be friendly but not overly friendly. This is not a reconciliation and she will have an agenda, so beware. Listen to her proposal(s) first to gauge her motivations. Meanwhile, you are the calm, cool, and collected operative. Bear in mind that there can arise circumstance of discussion that inappropriate without legal counsel present. This may be in fact a way to circumvent that. Don't promise anything, say that you'll take it under advisement and get back to her with your decision later. This gives you time to process what has happened and seek the opinion of legal counsel if necessary. Take notes after you get home as to what occurred during the meeting in case you need it for further reference. If you want to freak her out, bring a tape recorder!

It is doubtful but not impossible that she will emotionally ambush you. I'm sure that she has other agendas and will use all of her female manipulation skills in an attempt to get them. Remember that she knows your responses and how to push your buttons. Don't give her the satisfaction.

I think it's an enormous mistake to meet up face to face. Your recent posts suggest difficulty in maintaining an even tempered demeanor toward her. As Dutch indicated, real-time, face to face communication makes thoughtful and considered responses very difficult.

I suggest emailing her back and declining the offer to meet. Ask her to simply limit any and all attempts to communicate by email. No face to face, and no phone calls unless of extreme emergencies with the kids. This allows you to respond with a little more clarity and maturity. To think twice you go off on her.

This isn't meant as a tactic to hurt her. It's a self protective measure to make sure that you don't do or say anything stupid at this very delicate time.

Guys,

Thank you for pointing out what my guts were already telling me. I was feeling nervous and apprehensive about meeting her face to face, and I just needed to trust that feeling.

I sent her an e-mail saying that I needed to decline her offer to meet, and asked that she send me the dates she was concerned with via e-mail, and that from this point forward she limit her communications with me to e-mail only, with the exceptions of something about the kids, or if she wants to talk about us, past, present or future.

I questioned adding the 'about us' part, but then decided I'd throw it out there and see what happens. I do think I'd be open to talking with her more about that.

Thanks for the good sound advice guys,

- TTM


P.S. I wanted to add that declining her request to meet felt great. Like I was taking control of/for myself. For too long I think I'd come running if she snapped her fingers, and now for maybe the first time, I didn't. I wonder how she'll react?

---- Added ----

STBXW just showed up at my house this afternoon unannounced, and was waving my attorney's response to her summons for divorce. Clearly she was upset. Bummer, I know what that feels like. I never saw what my attorney had written, but it was almost a ditto copy of what hers was to me.

I guess there is Karma after all, what comes around goes around.

I told her what I was going to do, and that's to a tee exactly what I've done so far.

When she was leaving I told her not to show up again, without calling first. I'm getting so much better at setting my boundaries.

I just read this thread and I'm really inspired by you, TTM. I hope that if my wife and I do end up in divorce, which is looking ever more likely, that I will be able to be as resilient as you have been.

Thanks for the kind words. It's not been easy. I've been working hard to control my boundaries and not let too much in, it upsets me a lot when I do.

I asked STBXW for 25k in equity from our marital home, and she's decided now to take it to court. She can be so selfish and greedy sometimes, what I'm asking for is not even 50%. There's easily more than 80k in equity in the home, and she wants it all for herself.

So I got a notice today that my lawyer is taking it to court. That should be fun.

I just keep reminding myself that this is a process, an ugly one, but just a process none the less. It'll all be over soon.

I've survived worse. I also remind myself, that in spite of her behavior now, it's my job to protect myself, and in that department I'm doing ok. I remember that at one time I did love this woman. On some level I think I still do.

- TTM

You continue to impress me, TM. Best of luck.

Thanks catperson,


And Dutch, if you're still reading this thread, I'm half way through the 'No more nice guy' book you recommended, and all I can say is WOW!!!! It's like reading my life's story and the problems I've had with STBXW and myself. It's all there in black and white. I am now a recovering nice guy. I've read about the concepts in this book before, but this made it so easy to grasp my syndrome, that I'm actually excited!

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!!!

- TTM

P.S. I've already started 'putting myself first' in a lot of small ways, and seen amazing things happening in just a few days. This is going to be great!

TTM,

First of all, thanks for such a great thread about such a difficult subject (the big "D"). We can all relate...

After getting to the end of the thread today, I could not escape the feeling that there is something more to her email message to you after the blowup that night you had been drinking. Why do I say that? Our STBXWs sound a lot alike in their approach to email.

For example, I would write a long/expressive message. She would rarely write back more than 20 words. EXCEPTION: she wrote much longer messages when she was trying to "get" something, either from me (in the form of this or that concession) or to "document" me (for lack of a better word). What do I mean by "document"? She was trying to get me to accept responsibility for something or to validate her description of some allegedly bad behavior on my part. A friend of mine said to "be very careful in replying to her". The point he was trying to make was to NOT EVER admit to anything that could be used -- either directly or indirectly through distortions -- against me.

What do I mean here? You should be VERY CAREFUL about writing anything about being drunk. It will come back to bite you in the a$$ in court. Ditto for any other admissions or anywhere else in which you might be painted as the "bad guy".

From this point forward, you are in a business deal (divorce) with her. Keep all of your communications on point and protect your business interests (yours and your kids' future economic well-being). It's too bad that things end up this way, but you need to assume that _anything_ that you write can be read to the judge in court and portrayed in the worst possible manner.

Keep the faith!

Thanks for the perspective Lies,

Let me share something that happened a few days ago. I was picking up some of my son's stuff at her house, and she handed me a bill from a hospital visit. She took my son to the hospital when he had a minor cut on his thumb. Not unlike her, and understandable given my son's prior illnesses ect.

She asked me to pay 50% of the $50 co-pay. I didn't reply. I thought about whether I wanted to pay 50% of it and decided that I didn't. So I e-mailed her the next day and validated her and said I think she made a good decision, for her, to take our son to the hospital. I also said I would not have chosen to take him, given that a hospital visit was expensive. I told her I didn't want to be paying 1/2 of the bill.

This hospital visit happened the same evening I had exploded on her, and yes I had been drinking.

Her response to this was to accuse me of being drunk and that's why I wouldn't make the choice to take him to the hospital. Basically she tried to shame/blame me into giving her the money. In the past I would have always given into this. I hated to upset her. But I'm learning to do better now. I didn't get angry, I just sent a e-mail reply that said....

Is your self esteem really that low that I can't present a difference of opinion without you getting defensive and going on the attack? Might want to take a look at that.

Right after I sent that I got several responses to my e-mails, with 'interesting perspective' when she didn't agree with me, rather than the usual attacks, I've been subjected to.

I found that really cool. I think I held up a mirror to her for the first time, and she saw her behavior. I've never done this before, ever. I'm really curious what's going on over in her head.

Whatever, I didn't do it for her, I did what was right for me.

And I'm doing fine.

- TTM

If your experience ends up being anything like mine, you'll never really know what's going on in her head...

I also know what you mean about holding up a "mirror" for her and how that can feel. No matter how good that feels and how much you might feel vindicated by that feeling, you are not in the right stage of your post-marital relationship with her to be her therapist. You and she are going to be legal (and financial) adversaries shortly. Wait until the dust settles from all of that to continue holding a mirror up to her again. You'll have the rest of your life to do so.

In the final analysis, I'm completely with you -- Do what's right for you. However, don't forget that anything that you write to her has the potential to become fodder for her attorney's grinder. S/he (the attorney) will be only too happy to grind and grind it (whatever you write) in front of the judge.

TTM,

You are very welcome. I too feel like the author was describing me like he knew me all of my life and I learned quite a bit about myself and my motivations. I still feel it takes two to tango when it comes to manipulative behavior, i.e. there is a cause/effect relationship, and in a healthy and balanced relationship manipulation is not required.

There are many things I can blame on the XW. I will never know her true motivations in initiating the divorce. I do know, especiallly after reading "NMMNG" that I also played my part and share in the blame for the demise of a marriage.

I never though to put my needs first.