You got that right, I was firm about not wanting him to book tickets to go out this mid June, him or DD12.

We did discuss it. I tried to be as accomodating as I could. I have a week and a half vacation left for the year, and so I said I would be willing to go out for a vacation there, all of us. I agreed that DD12 could go to the two-week acting camp her manager gives. And if we can get on more solid footing, I told him I'd be open to talking about this next year.

He's going to see if he can line up work out there, and to see if things would take off for DD12's career. I made it clear to him that I'm not going right now, nor the girls, even if he find the offer taht he wants. He says that he's okay with that, that there are a lot of bicoastal families in the business. He says that I'll change my mind if DD12 hits it big this year. No, we really need more stability and working together in our family for that to happen.

I was very clear that I didn't want him to go out for 6 weeks this summer, nor to take DD12 for 6 weeks. A separation like that puts a lot of stress on the family, on me, and on the marriage. I have an issue DD12 being out there with her dad because of the unresolved issues about his drinking.

Yes, it came up in MC. I was reluctant to bring it up, because I think in the past with other counselors, our we've let our MC time be comsumed by one IB situation after the other, to the exclusion of building the kind of relationship that's so strong that IB wouldn't be so attractive. But I did bring it up, and asked the MC if she thought that it was relvant, so we spent the whole session mirroring. It felt good to feel validated by H, but it didn't change the outcome.

The MC wants to do double sessions, 90 minutes instead of 45, and asked me to consider discontinuing my IC so that we could put that through insurance. I understand her reasoning, because we have a lot to push through right now. But I am really reluctant to put IC on hold right now. I'm working really hard to stay in acceptance, instead of going back to denial and watching my anger turn into depression. And I think my IC really helps me with that. I'm going to call the insurance company today and see if they would pay for the longer family counseling session the weeks that I don't got to the IC.

I still don't know what to do as far as DD12. I have been sharing my O&H with her and with H. This trip they have planned involves leaving her with the manager for an extra week while H is in MD on business. That when she gets older, I would feel more comfortable leaving her with her manager for longer, but for now, I want to keep it to the two week camp, where it's more structured and the manager has more help with the kids. I think the manager is great, but she does let the kids, even the 11 year olds, "fend for themselves" more than we would with DD12, fixing their own meals, doing their own laundry, setting their sleep and wake times, brushing their teeth, things like that. All things that DD12 could do, but as her parent, I don't want to put her in that position at 12 without us there as back up. She's a really responsible kid, and is taking this as lack of confidence in her on my part. This hasn't been easy on her, either.

I think it's getting time to put my foot down, and tell H that enough is enough, that DD12 is not going with him mid-June. I have no "teeth," but while I can see that H is willing to take her against my wishes, I don't think H would take her against my will. I think there will be big consequences to that, like H pulling out of MC, and maybe out of the home. But I have to stop living from fear of his actions, even when I'm not sure that I'm ready to face that.

I just don't know what to tell you. I hear your frustration that he would do that against your wishes. That was blatant IB. But what to do about it? It involves your daughter, so it isn't like you are trying to *control* him, you have every right (and responsibility!) to have a say.

You think he wouldn't take her if you put your foot down? It sounds like you do think there's some risk involved.


I don't want to put ideas into your head, but this would bother me. I would feel a bit, um.... manipulated maybe? insulted? Like, *after* he goes and does it, he can get away with it as long as he "validates my feelings" but he doesn't actually have to *do* anything? Meaning, no amends, KWIM?

This seems to be escalating, kinda like a power struggle. How can the escalation be stopped? If you give in, what message does that send him - but if you put your foot down, and he's seeing this as a power struggle, what level is he willing to take this to?

Is there any way to defuse the situation? I would've hoped the MC could do that. As in, look at the sitch from a neutral position, assess the risks you perceive vs. the reasons H went ahead in complete disregard to those risks. (I'm not saying the risks aren't real, I'm just admitting that you perceive them and apparently your H disagrees.)

I'm not sure what I would do. I may just put my foot down, like you're saying.

Hey, EO...

I don't know about putting feet down...usually lands on someone else's feet or just smarts.

Choices don't have feet...watch me say look where your boundary is and where you're standing to contradict my grandiose statement...

What I mean is that he chooses and you choose. What did you find out about him taking your DD out of state against your wishes, legally?

Now, to add to your confusion...what is life-threatening in the list of what bothers you about manager and kids for an extra week? I'm not saying okay or not okay...I'm asking you to again, evaluate.

He is leaving your house for the summer...going to point that out because of your fear of his punishment...pulling out of MC or even the marriage.

I'm wondering if there isn't a vicarious motive going on with H about SoCal...speculating, since we just don't know...and that is the oddest part...what the MC would focus on, I'd think. Don't do what you aren't being honest with yourself about or with your partner.

Glad you got validation and acknowledgment. Good to know you wanted it to affect the outcome. You caught yourself. Big kudos on bravery in bringing it up in MC to begin with.

Dig out your fears from underneath manager's parenting style...all of them...ferret them out...and share them. What I'm guessing one of them will be is exposure to new influences...that would be mine...because you can't undo those...hence, the concern for DD's age. On the cusp...

Did you acknowledge and validate DD12's belief you aren't confident in her choices?

Back to feet...he chose, you choose...and be brave and ask the questions which really concern you most...

"How does you doing this build our marriage? That's what I can't see right now...how does this add to our partnership?"

Respectful...you can't see it. Ask it. To know.

Don't be afraid of your fears...seeing them, tracing them to where they are coming from is what rears your child inside...lovingly, with awareness. A reminder.

LA

He's asked, told, and threatened me not to do something that would stand in the way of him taking DD12, so that's why I think that he may not take her if I am more forceful about it. Like if I was in the airport screaming for him not to take her or something like that. I don't think that particular scenario is respectful, and I went through scenes like that as a kid, and it's pretty scary.

I don't know if I have any "teeth" here. I have a friend whose XSiL is a family lawyer, but she didn't get back with me by email, and I don't have a phone number for her. I have another friend who is a family lawyer, too, and I'm trying to find my contact information from her. If I do have a legal option, and could send that information to H in an email, maybe we could discuss it behind the scenes and present a united front to the kids. I don't think that scenario is likely, though.



Thanks for sharing that, jayne. I am really looking for that here, for how other folks would feel, would respond, in the same situation, because so far I don't see any options that feel honest to me. Alanon slogans I usually use to help me identify options in these IB situations are Let Go and Let God, First Things First, Think, and How Important Is It? So far I've identified

• Be O&H but not stop her from going, while continuing to work towards POJA. Letting Go and Letting God, trusting that she has a Higher Power that will protect her. This one doesn't feel so good to me, though, because part of His plan for her was to give her parents that will protect her, too, right?
• Work towards the goal of her not going, if I can, whether H is on board or not. Here it would be First Things First, putting her well-being above the IB. This option doesn't feel so good to me, either, because it is gaining at H's expense, and moving further away from working together.

I still don't have an answer for this one. I do have another friend who I plan to locate today.



Nothing life-threatening. The MC told H that she can see how triggering this is to me because of what she hears about me wanting to protect DD12. That this makes sense to her, because from what she's heard about my background, I wasn't protected at that age. I see H twisting this against me, that because I ahve these issues, that my concerns are to be discarded, because they're not going to match with reality. I disagree with that. I tihnk that what I've been through helps me trust my awareness that some things that may seem safe to some folks may not really be in the kid's best interest. We all have that inner voice that says that they're not sure if something is okay. I believe that it is a strength to my kids that I do listen to that voice and assess the risk and to look at what I can do to mitigate that.

Did you ever read The Fear Book? It's a short read, I heard it recommended on Tama's thread. It talks about protecting ourselves from these fears, to use it as information instead of teling ourselves it's nothing and experiencing that abandonment again and again. Like if wondering whether the door is locked at night worries you, then get a better lock, one you feel safer with, and lock it nightly. Then you know that you've done what you need to to keep yourself safe, and don't need to keep worrying about it.

One of DD12's friends out there last year, who was 11, stayed with us sometimes, with her mom's permission. I heard that mom's fear every time she called, and wondered why she sent her daughter when she wasn't comfortable. She thought that she "should" be comfortable with that, because here are respected folks telling her that it's fine. H and I discussed it, because we really felt bad for that family, and agreed that we wouldn't send DD12 for more than the two week camp until she was older.

I have more, but I've got to go for now. Thanks for your presence, as always!

LA, I wanted to add, that you and jayne have been helping me get to clarity. Adding to the confusion would look really different, something like, "I need her HERE for two weeks, too!"



She really did help us with this part. H explained that he likes to be adventurous, and thinks that our kids get experiences that they wouldn't have with less adventurous parents. Like that summer in NYC, DD12 doesn't remember the sleeping in a port-a-crib with her sister part, or the roaches. She remembers the friends she made and the work she did and how much fun it was. I was surprised talking to DD7, she wants to go out this summer too, even though she complained a lot when she was there last summer about wanting to go home early.

I understand that may or may not be the reason that H wants to go out now so badly.



Yes, that is how I understood the process, that if we're really listening to one another, that we wouldn't want to cause our partner pain. That validating out loud would create enough distance between the belief that doesn't fit any more and the reality of today to make it impossible to keep on the same path, the going forward on a separate path instead of wokring togther. The relaity is that I've been sharing O&H some time now, and it hasn't had the effect that I had been hoping for. I caught that expectaiton.



I see how this would help, if she is to go, to identify my concerns and have a plan for each of them.

• That she'd be cut off suddenly for too long from the things that nurture and protect her - her family, routines, church, home. If she doesn't like it, I think she will internalize a lot of pressure on her to act like she's okay, instead of asking for help.
• That she'd lose her cell phone, which she's done, and not be able to call us when she's in a situation that she needs guidance or help
• That she would have a problem with her asthma that she'd minimize as nothing and not get help for until it gets too bad. We hear when she's coughing in her sleep, because we wake up earlier than her, and let her know so she can increase her medications as per her plan from her doctor for a week or so. I don't know if she'd get that help there.

Thanks for asking. Wow, I'm surprised to say that I kind of zoomed through it, "I understand that you want us to trust that you are okay to take care of yourself BUT..."



I started to ask last night, and H said, "I can't keep talking about this every day," in an intimidating tone. I told him I'm not going to be intimidated, but that I will respect that he doesn't want to discuss this tonight. I tried to catch him on the phone on the drive in this morning, because on the pone is one of the easier ways to discuss difficult things, but he didn't take my call. Maybe he'll sit on the porch with me after dinner.

Good for you for not letting yourself be intimidated.

Have you actually talked about this every single day, or has he "gotten a break" for a day or two? I'm sure you remember all the ways to thoughtfully request, and to make the discussion pleasant (or at least not unpleasant) for him. I hope he does agree to discuss this tonight. Would it help if you offered to set a time limit, or to not discuss it for a few days after this, if he will discuss it to your satisfaction tonight?

One or the other of us has said something about it nearly every day. You may be right, that we'd be better served discussing this less frequently. I will suggest that, that we give it a few days to cool off after that. When we talk, we do set a 15 minute time limit, so neither of us gets overloaded. But I usually share more in a drive-by way, so like one or two sentences and then I'm off. Then when he brings it up, we talk longer, as long as it's not too late in the evening. If it is, then I ask him to table it until the morning.

E_O - I feel for your situation and I personally think it's wrong of your H to unilaterally make plans to go off with your children without your buy-in. Like others have already said, there is no POJA in that at all.

Though the quote above struck me. And apologies if I'm not grasping the full context of it, but... That was a very common dynamic between the XW throughout our M. She would bomb drop on me (drive-by?) on an issue, and when I attempted to discuss it at length, she'd beg off because she was too tired, or too busy.

I now look back at that as a very PA tactic on her part. She'd let me know that she didn't like something or wanted something that she knew I wasn't crazy about it, then escape and dodge any actual discussion. I was then faced with making a choice to either:

1) Accept her wishes and feel angry and resentful for having given in.

-or-

2) Hold my ground and deal with her sullen and resentful response because I refused to give in to what she wanted.

I'm not saying that's what is going on with you, but I did want to call it to your attention... A possible dynamic to be wary of.

What it boiled down to for us, is that there was never a good time to "talk". The mornings were spent trying to get the house up and going to work and school/daycare. The days were spent apart at our respective jobs. The evenings were spent dealing with dinner, baths, storytime, etc... And then by 8:30 she was doing a face plant into her pillow and saying that she was too tired to talk about anything.

Verrrrrrrrrrrrrrry frustrating!

Seabird, thanks for following with me, I really appreciate it.


What I'm trying to do is to include my input into the marriage, too. I do ask H to go for a walk with me or sit on the back porch or go for coffee when I have something that I really think I need a response from him about. Maybe once a week or every other week, and limit it to 15 minutes, so it doesn't get overwhelming.

But a lot of times, it's not something that I need to hear a response if he doesn't feel like sharing. Sometimes, he does want to talk about something right away, and then I am glad to, because that's what I was hoping for but trying not to pressure him.

The time that I do beg off, though, is when it's late, like 9:30 or later. H takes a while to unwind, and then wants to talk about something, but I am reluctant because we used to fight at these times, and I really don't want to do that. I'd rather talk when I feel like I have a good handle on being calm. A lot more often now, he'll bring up something on the couch or on a walk, so then we can talk about it in the moment.

I tahnk you for pointing that out, though. I do see how he could see it as I want to talk when I want to talk, but then don't when he's at his most calm and brings something up. I will ask him if he feels like that, and we can work on that, like maybe he could ask me to put aside some time, like I ask him. Or there may be other ideas we can come up with.

Hmmm... You bring up an interesting point for me as well. One that I hadn't thought of before.


This sounds to me like this time of evening for a "talk" was a bit of an emotional trigger. A period that was reserved for conflict.

I wonder if that's how my XW felt; like she didn't feel safe in a discussion with me perhaps which made her resort to the drive-by method of expressing a want or need.

Seabird, that definitely fits my situation. Several of us here have resorted to it in an attempt to (1) not put pressure on the partner and/or (2) give them the thought and allow them to hopefully mull it over before bringing it up later and avoid knee-jerk reactions. Reactions we've been 'trained' to expect.

eta, ears, I haven't chimed in cos I simply have nothing of value on this subject. Don't want to cloud your thinking when I have no solution.

You hit the nail on the head. I try not to focus on it, but it's really sad when I think about it how much conflict we had. It takes what it takes. I'm really grateful that we can do differently now, when we can

Cat, thanks for letting me know that you're here. I don't think that you cloud my thinking I hear you about not having a solution, but just having your example, having fear and having the courage to think through and act, anyway, is a really huge support for me.

I'm replying to your post, Seabird...I even went up and clicked on reply so it will show in my post.

I'm proud of myself right now, can you tell? I used to just hit the reply on the last post at the bottom. I'm changing!

About what you experienced with XW...sounds to me like you both, legitimately had cause to face plant at 8:30pm each night. I remember with younger kids that very same thing.

What I learned was that when one of us brings up something, it doesn't have to solved or discussed right then...it can be a counter conflict avoidance act if we are retraining ourselves by out-thinking ourselves...

Thinking: "Oh, that so annoys me when he does that. No, I'm tired and nit-picking. I won't say anything. It's late and I want to sleep. Wait. I have been upset with him doing this for years. I gotta just state it simply and let it go."

All the energy is in getting to the statement--like a first step of doing something different.

Say my DH goes through this in his head...my response to him would now be "I hear you. I'm making a note so I don't forget. Can we talk more about it at 10am on Saturday over coffee at Starbucks?"

When we make the appointment...we make it a priority...following through is difficult, too...see, we can often "forget" something really important as a deep CA habit...wipes it out of our mind. Making a note may sound condescending at first, or "Great, he has to make a note to remember something important to me" <--yeah, I was that bad with DJs --affirming and scheduling shows greater care than wrestling something right then.

Shows care for the marriage, for yourself and your fatigue (where you don't believe you'll be able to manage not reacting to your emotions...something most humans have a more difficult time doing when physically tired)...and what may sound like not a big issue (talk, get it done and resolve now) may be from years of not saying...pretty volatile. Can't tell until you get there.

I trust you, SB, to not infer I'm saying "You did it ALL wrong"...I believe you'll take this for your new life, your new way...where even when we remove ourselves from a discussion because WE feel volatile or overwhelmed, that before we do, we say why we're removing, how long we'll be gone and when we'll return...because what our partners are saying is important to us.

Doesn't control the outcome at all...I remember that line from a book, "90% of marital problems aren't to be solved but understood."

Dang it...that's just messed up...

<--all about the solving

LOL...okay, that was the old me. Can't believe how much work it took for me to be about the understanding.

LA

I chaired a meeting last night, about the 3 A's - awareness, acceptance, action. A lady shared about finding the 90 degrees between reactivity and inaction. I see how even while our patterns are changing, how H and I still struggle with this perspective. I've got to keep choosing my attitude, keep choosing my beliefs.

Got home last night, again H sharing that he wants to split up. I remember feeling like that, when I felt that was the only way that I could have a life that made me happy, too. When I felt that my needs were not being addressed within the marriage. I was projecting, but as H went on, I heard confirmation, that he misses a lot of things that we used to do. He got a job offer again up in MD, and he said he didn't take it, because he doesn't want to move there with me. He doesn't like our life. Right now, our life is I'm guessing 80% at the 90 degree mark, but the other 20% either at my 180 or his.

It felt really good to validate what he said, and realize as I was talking how similar our experiences have been. I shared with him out loud my belief that we have a plan that will help us share the best of what both of us bring to the marriage.


The MC called me back. She wasn't trying to make up my mind for me, but pointed out that the set of solutions that I was looking at, were all valid. It's okay to trust your H. It's okay to say No. It's okay to say we're not done negotiating this. And that we can plan to address these concerns without it becoming overwhelming.

I feel really confident that we can do this.

I really admire you for being so...proactive. I don't think I could handle it.

LA - I want to respond but I don't want to hijack EO's thread. Hopefully this exchange will help her too.

If not EO, just tell us to GTFO. :P

I just want to clarify the concept of "understanding" as I suspect that it might mean something different to me than to you. Might mean something different between men and women.

To me, the word implies complete knowledge. I know exactly why you are upset. I know exactly why you are telling me what you are telling me. I know the series of events that led you to your choice of words and actions.

I think that is the common goal for many men. The need to completely understand before choosing to empathize. A desire to analyze and then decide if our SO's gripe is worthy of consideration.

Not saying it's right. Just saying how it often is.

What I have been trying to do going forward is to seek unconditional empathy. It's not as important to understand (by my definition) as it is to respect.

I don't know why you've chosen to do this right now, but I see that you're upset about it and I realize that you feel this way for a reason. I love you unconditionally so I will support you in this regardless of the "why". I will still strive to understand it so as to assist, but I won't base my choice to support you on it.

Does that makes sense?

Cat, thanks for your vote of confidence! It means a lot to me.

Makes a lot of sense.

I'm glad that you folks feel comfortable roosting here. And from a selfish motive, maybe I'll get more input form somone who stopped by looking for y'all's posts

I read about what you described on Al Turtle website, too.. He calls that first step Prevalidation. Expressing the belief that whatever you're saying does make sense to you. Then the second step, the person sharing their view, and then the first person validating back what they heard. This does take clarification, and understanding.

Thanks for being patient with the tangential conversation in your thread EO.

I think it also takes trust on the lister's part. The person expressing their problem takes for granted the amount of trust the listener needs to have in them to, for lack of a better phrase, take them seriously.

It requires a certain amount of trust to take another person's expressions of dissatisfaction and insecurity seriously.