Well we went to the grandparents to go swimming with the kids. She has a sister inlaw that just got divorced and she was there too. I think she cheated on her husband too and my wife says she thinks the same thing but sister IL hasn't admitted it to her. As she says anyway. So it was a little awkward when I got there. I thought to myself it has been awkward lately so didn't think anything of it.
We get home and wife starts making drinks for us. We go to the back porch and she starts telling me that she is just thinking out loud and wants to to stay at the apartment for a couple days a week. She explains thats how this all started. She just wanted some independence. The affair just happened. She says that it is probably just a phase and if she does it then she will get it out of her system. She asked if there was some kind of compromise we can come up with. I was freaking out inside and all my fears of her wanting to be alone with him were running rampant in my head. I say maybe you can go to another state or country for awhile. Only saying this to get her away from the OM. She says I don't want to be without you. That felt kinda good but still freaking out.
We get the kids to bed and end up on he couches. I asked what does she really want by being in the apartment. She says I just want to be free. I want to go somewhere when I want and if I want to go to Taco Mac and have a few drinks then that's my choice. I told her about that all my fears of her affair are coming back. Then ask her to stay in the basement. We could get the kids in bed and then she can go sleep down there. She said it's not the same. I asked "why because your not getting exactly what you want". I said you asked for compromises and I gave you two. She said I don't like your tone and delivery. She then said let's talk about this another time. I was relieved and obliged.
Is this WS talk? Any suggestions on how to deal with this.

Yes, it's WS talk.

Since she can't tell you how her A happened, then she can't prevent another one, can she? So staying away a couple of days a week is asking for her to stray again.

She's free every moment of her life. Listen and repeat her words back to her...for clarity or confirmation. "I hear you saying you wish you were free of your vows to our marriage and the children resulting from it? I know you're as free as I am, every day. I choose to honor our marriage, put it first in my life, for I know that's the path of my true happiness."

I totally believe she doesn't want to escape you, Fam...she doesn't want to be without you...she wants to escape herself...feels trapped (we do when we're harming ourselves and others because WE'RE doing it); feels pressured and lacking and imprisoned.

We get so far from feeling the joy from our family when we focus only on our family obligations...our joy remains there, for the taking.

She's experiencing distortion...when so focus on lack, we can't see, feel, taste or know the abundance we are living in.

Listen and repeat..."I hear you saying you want to go where you want, and do what you want...so you'll need to tell the kids this, 'k? Just like you're telling your husband...that we are traps, a prison for you...not what you love most, not where your heart and happiness is...'k?"

Don't compromise...that's a trap. Do you want to compromise your marriage? Stand for it. She only controls herself...hand back her words. Don't take them inside yourself until you know you are not to fix her stuff...just know it. You don't have to approve of her stuff...only know and approve of your own.

Focus on her actions...the fear your kids experience when Mommy lives away...because they trapped her. Took away her freedom.

She can go to Taco Mack and have a few drinks with you present. She's free to have a thriving, recovered marriage someday. She can free herself from her perspective...she can fall in love with her family again. Only she can do that, though.

You felt bigtime fear when she talked to you...understandable. You may have felt rejected, abandoned, or like a prison guard--the reason for her unhappiness. So I want you to remember there's you, her and The Marriage. You can fear...don't react to it. Honor your Marriage. She's not abandoning you--she's abandoning the Marriage.

She cannot get "it" out of her system until she looks at it's source...which is IN her system, 'k?

Don't bargain with a WS...your marriage will lose, 'k? "I know you can choose to separate. That's what I hear you saying. I choose our marriage."

I don't think I'm doing well with the sample dialogue tonight. Sorry 'bout that.

LA

FM,

You could try saying "NO".

You've got FOUR kids under the age of 6. FOUR of them. What if one of them needs medical attention some night? What if two of them are sick at the same time? What about a tornado, or God forbid, a fire?

No, heck NO. A marred woman AND man with four children at home doesn't have a choice. "Independence" is not a easy luxury to come by with four kids. Home is where they belong.

And her gas lighting you by indicating she doesn't like your tone. Whatever, she is mentally tormenting you and she knows it. Requesting alone time by a "f"ww is code word for the affair continues. So she's either still an active wayward or particularly abusive of you. Ask her which one it is. No reconciling BS should have to endure their spouse out sleeping supposedly alone in an apartment, IF the ws is truly trying to save a marriage and family.

Utterly ridiculous.

Don't be afraid to say "NO". You can do it nicely, with a smile on your face if you can muster it...but, say it. YOU matter.

Of course, it's a free world and she's free to walk out anytime she wants an abandon her family. Let her know you likely will be changing the locks if she walks out on you all. The she better pack more things than just her pajama's. Whatever, you do don't acquiesce. It's wrong and abusive. IF she goes, she does it AGAINST your wishes.

Mr. Wondering

I did say NO but also told her she is free to do what she wants. Only gave her the options to try to compromise. I told her that I would never enthusiastically agree to her leaving. The joint agreement tool says to come up with options and try to enthusiastically agree. That's what I thought I was doing.

familyman,

Her bringing up the apartment again is the kind of thing I meant when I said she wouldn't be able to hide it. I think she is still "foggy", still wayward in her thinking, whether or not she is still seeing that particular OM - and she might well still be.

When you first came here, she was out partying with friends, going out with OM "as a friend" and wanting to stay in the apartment. Now she wants to go back to that? As a Betrayed Spouse, you have every right to feel bad about that... because it is wrong. Wrong and unfair to expect you to allow this, wrong and unfair to put your kids through this.

I can understand she is going thru MLC, she doesn't know who she is, etc etc. It should be possible for her to figure all that out without abandoning her family. Which is what she would be doing.

LovingAnyway had some excellent examples of repeating back what she says. Mr W points out a very good question - what if something happens to the kids? Remember these the next time she brings up the idea of moving out again.

And hang in there... this whole experience will be like a rollercoaster ride for you - things will change often. It takes time to recover from an affair - and it takes time to go thru whatever it is she is going thru. Don't panic when there is a downturn like this... expect that there will be rough patches, and be prepared for them, and just hang in there. It won't be forever.

I sent her this email. I think I screwed up. The whole enabling part was dumb.

Just wanted to say some things that I am thinking about.

You say you want to be free to do things that you want to do. You are free. As free as I am. When you want to go to the apartment and be by yourself you are saying that you feel trapped by me. Maybe you want to be free of our vows of marriage. I choose our marriage and the kids to be #1 priority in my life. I don’t like being in this situation of trying to repair my marriage but I will do it because it is what I want. I would like to escape the pain of what has happened too. This is hard. I hurt every day about what I have done to make you feel like an affair enabled you to get some of the needs that I wasn’t giving you. What I have done to enable an affair is a problem I have to deal with for the rest of my life. I have made a terrible mistake and may end up losing a woman that I love, admire, and lust over. That being said, I want to make changes in my life to make our marriage a better place. A place of love and happiness.



You say you want independence. I hear you. I do too but I want our marriage and all the happiness that can come with it too. You have 4 kids, 2 businesses, and a marriage on the rocks. It’s hard to have independence with all that to take care of so I can understand why you feel like you have no independence but you can have more independence without going to an apartment. We have plenty of people that can take care of the kids while you do independent things. If you think our marriage is important then I ask you to protect and do independent things that don’t hurt our marriage. Going to the apartment does hurt our marriage because it hurts me.



I love you,

And here is the response from her. I don't get it. How would that email make her think that way? I asked her the same thing.

"Well, I will just suck up my feelings and be a good dutiful wife. I will put all my needs aside and do as you ask. Who needs to worry about their own feelings anyway. I have lived this long for other people what’s another 30 years."

Because that's what you're telling her. That she belongs at home, and she needs to make things work from home. Nowhere in there do you address her feelings, which she probably feels you've doing all along.

IMO, you should try getting very specific. Ask her what a perfect day would entail - both married and not married. Then try to see how the two of you can make changes together to allow her to have that WITH you instead of without you. I imagine you'll hear some things like 'don't blow off my opinion,' and 'don't make the decisions for the family without asking what I want,' and 'don't blame my family when you're mad.' Stuff like that.

May I interject here? To me it sounds like she wants to cake eat. She wants the joys of independence and the back up hubby at home. That is pure selfish regardless if he addressed her feelings or not. She is outright telling him she wants her freedom to do whatever she wants and still have a marriage. In plain words she is asking him to be a doormat. I think your letter was good, "suck up my feelings and be a dutiful wife" Not that her feelings don't count, they do, but I think familyman is doing some sucking up of his feelings too. He's trying to deal with a WW, raise 4 kids and hold down a job(business).Vows of marriage are sacred and not meant to be bent.She's bent them
Familyman, she is still gaslighting you.
I would ask if her feelings to have that apartment are strong enough to want to ruin or possibly end her marriage. Thats where it's heading if she continues on this path.

Thanks for the replys.

Can I get some suggestions on how I can address her feeling of independence and any other feelings in the future. I thought it was a good email and was totally hit over the head with the response. It must have read totally different than I wrote it. Can I get a some perspectives from the women how it reads? Not that I can change it but I just want to have some tips for the future. Thanks in advance.

shaken, I agree. I don't like what his wife is doing, but he asked about the letter, so I was addressing how that part worked or didn't. If he truly wants her back, he will have to play on her terms for the time being, because otherwise, she's not playing at all.

fm, I'll repeat, I think you need to be specific and humble. Say "Apparently I just don't get it, so I need your help understanding what's happening. Please tell me exactly what in your life with me is not working, action by action, so I can address them. I want to make absolutely sure that either I stop doing bad things, or I have a chance to defend what I'm doing right, that you feel is wrong. I want to have a real discussion of where we came from, where we are now, and what you see for your future. I need to know so I can figure out how to be the person to help you reach that goal. Tell me exactly what actions I do that are wrong. Do I make coffee wrong? Do I fold towels wrong? Do I cut off your conversation? Do I make you feel like you can't visit your friends without me getting upset?"

Stuff like that.

I agree with catperson's approach.

When I found out my wife wanted a divorce, I knew that I wouldn't be able to argue her into staying. I realized that I needed to change to make the marriage better for her, so that she would want to stay. And part of that involved listening to her complaints, and being willing to change.

Your situation, familyman, is a little different, of course - your wife had an affair, and mine didn't. You have every right to not be OK with her staying in her apartment a few nights a week. However... you do need to listen to your wife. She needs to know you care about her happiness.

You've essentially got to do a balancing act here - because, on the one hand, you do need to listen, to take what she says seriously, to be flexible enough to allow her to get thru this MLC she is going thru. On the other hand, you absolutely must not tolerate an affair - it is bad for her, it is bad for your marriage, it is bad for your kids... and it will destroy your love for her.

I'd suggest you have a conversation with your wife - start out along the lines catperson laid out... and then - listen. Let your wife guide the agenda and listen to what she is saying.

It's tough... you are right to not agree to the apartment... but at the same time you have to be willing to hear her and to help her.

Did you say you got that "men with wives in MLC" book? What does it say about all this?

Thanks for the replies and insight.

I like Cat's approach too. She is not very receptive with talking right now though. I did speak to her for awhile about her feeling of independence. I told her I understand that she wants to be more independent and there are lot of things one can do to feel more independent but the apartment is a recipe for disaster. She says I don't understand her feeling of independence. I asked her what she is really trying to achieve by going to the apartment. She has said in the past that it is easier to love me when she is in the apartment. I asked is it just the distance. She said "I think so". She doesn't want to talk about because she says I don't understand.

The MC says that the apartment is just an escape from the reality of life she and I have created. That it is not a good option because we could be right back where we were. With her going out with the wrong crowd and slipping back into the affair possibly. His opinion is the same as mine as doing independent things that don't carry the same consiquences that we are dealing with now.

I'm going to keep Plan Aing and hopefully we can be happy with what ever happens from there. I don't think she is seeing the OM but could be wrong again.

I don't remember the exact detail of the MLC guide for men but I do remember that is was the total opposite of MB principles. Something along the lines of letting her do her own thing and she come back when she figures out what she is looking for.

Please provide more insight

Seriously, if she was NOT seeing (or trying to see) the OM, then there would be no need for her "independence" would there???

Also, the likely reason that she so badly interpreted your email yesterday is because she is still FOGGED out, BECAUSE she is still in A mode.

Just add 2 + 2 ... think about it!!!

I'm thinking maybe or maybe not... because she is supposedly going thru a mid-life crisis. She showed familyman a support site for women going thru MLC, he posted a link to it here, and out of curiosity, I took a look at it (since I don't know much about it). Based on what I read there, I'm thinking that her desire for "independence" might well be a product of emotional turmoil she is going thru right now...

In other words, she might want "independence" because she really is going thru some kind of crisis and trying to figure out who she is. That seems to be what their counselor thinks, too.

I don't know enough about mid-life crisis to have a good opinion one way or another. But I agree that she could very well be in contact with OM or want to resume contact with OM. But it could also just be her confusion right now.


I agree that she is probably still fogged out. Even if she is in NC with OM and serious about ending the A, it's only been a week or two, I think, so she would still be foggy for awhile, right?

CC,

I understand that there are alternate possibilities, but I tend to look at the obvious, rather than rely on hope of something less problematic, ESPECIALLY since there is a KNOWN recent A.

That is why I said it is LIKELY that she is still involved. I just think its much safer to approach this from the perspective of an ongoing A (or multiple A's or ONS).

I just see too much HOPING and not enough ACTIONS to regain some measure of control over his life. It just bothers me to see BH's being disrespected and used as doormats.

I don't think it matters too much what she wants regarding independence. I think you should completely take the apartment out of the picture. STOP renting it, or sell it if you own it.

For recovery to proceed, she is going to have to recognize that there is NO independence in marriage. There is no running away for days at a time to indulge in a single lifestyle. If you continue to indulge her fantasy that this may be possible, you are enabling the conflict between you to continue.

I suggest you share the basic concepts of the MB program with your W. Tell her that THIS is what you want your marriage to be like, that THIS is what you are willing to work towards WITH her. If that is not what she wants, then you have your answer, she does not want to be in a marriage that is likely to make you happy.

I really do question the truth of your wifes statements. I do not see much true remorse from her, and I see alot of foggy behavior. It COULD be withdrawal, or the A could simply be underground for now. It doesn't really matter though. Until she is out of the fog you are beating your head against the wall. Until she is willing to commit to the M, you have to establish and maintain your boundaries. Appeasing her is going to come back and bite you in the end.

There is no reason to POJA the apartment, is there? You simply are not going to be willing to be married to someone that maintains an apartment to indulge a single lifestyle within a marriage, right? So stop arguing about it. Establish your boundary, express it, and be prepared to enforce it should she choose to violate it.

Personally, I'd find an A less problematic than an MLC - because the A can be dealt with using the Plan A, Plan B approaches. I don't know anything about MLCs, and the "expert opinion" seems to be that the H has to just stand back and let the W work it all out on her own.


familyman, I agree that it would be wise to approach this as if she may still be in contact with OM. It is very hard for a WS to give up the affair, and they are very strongly tempted to get back in touch.


I hate seeing BHs treated as doormats, too - I hear you on that one. I do think, though, that familyman has nothing to lose by trying to listen to what she is saying in these conversations. It may turn out to be obvious fog-babble... or it might be something else... but if familyman doesn't show he is listening, she'll just opt out of recovery altogether.

I think that he is on solid ground by having a conversation with her about her stated need for "independence" - while at the same time holding fast to boundaries about not abandoning the family for overnights at the apartment.

EXACTLY ... Recovery Boundary #1 ... "I will not stay married to a woman who insists on maintaining a seperate apartment to ESCAPE from the M".

I'm going to chime in mainly because I see a lot of my WW in this thread. The MLC angle seems extremely likely and goes hand-in-hand with the A. Does that change the approach you should take? Not much. You should be in Plan A. That doesn't mean you should be a doormat. You shouldn't be using POJA in regards to the apartment, because there's nothing about the apartment that you can be in enthusiastic agreement about. You shouldn't be sacrificing in order to try and appease your WW.

She's quite foggy right now and it's going to take a while for that to go away. So be vigilant and make certain she doesn't have any contact with OM. Don't assume she's not in contact and don't assume she is.