No latex, perfect!

This is just in time for a trip we're taking to New Zealand too. Yay!

This just in: H got the job offer!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Congratulations, jayne

What are your next steps?

Find out what the offer is, negotiate for a position for me, see what happens with my job sitch here, tell them of this other offer and see what they say...

I have obligations here I need to fulfill even if I leave, I'll have to make sure certain ppl are taken care of.

First, we have to prepare for this trip to NZ, and make sure we both make a good impression there. The person making the offer will be at the same meeting.

Wow, great news all around! Congrats!

Don't get mad I know this doesn't make sense, but I'm still depressed.

I don't wanna pull the kids out of their great school, and I don't see how I can get a job there... and I feel guilty for leaving some ppl here...

What's wrong with me?

Moving is a huge deal. One of the biggest. So if both of you aren't enthusiastic about it, you might have to work out a different deal. I would love to move somewhere else, but H won't even consider it; he's turned down some great offers because of it. It's one of the biggest humps in a marriage, I would think. That's why I tell young people not to get married until you've got your career started, because one of you might have to compromise to satisfy the other for a move.

Jayne, I don't think that there is anything wrong with you. You guys have got to look out for the best interests of the entire family.

I didn't know that you all would be giving up great schools and your job for a place that doesn't have great schools and good work for you. How'd that part happen? You all went out there to visit recently, right?

Has he accepted yet?

Hi jayne, here's something that I learned last night in IC. Maybe it will be relevant to you, too. He said when you make a bid decision, a frame to gather the information you need is called SWOT.

Identify the

• Strengths
• Weaknesses
• Opportunities
• Threats(possible negative outcomes)

Does that help?

Jayne, I'm so sorry to hear that you're feeling conflicted, but can totally relate. Is it painful to feel so conflicted just when it felt like you were coming up for air? I can imagine when he's been out of work for over a year now that he may well be applying to things that he would have had no interest in if he felt less desparate. Is that what happened?

I can't believe you mentioned SWOT! We've done them at work recently. I never thought of applying them to personal life. What a great idea!

About us both being enthusiastic, well it depends on so many things. Earlier this year I was wanting this. Now I'm not as sure. Things at work were going very badly, even illegally badly, and I was willing to just quit altogether and be a SAHM and even homeschool my kids. Now some people have gotten wind of what's going on and I think are taking steps to correct some things. I've also had to make some commitments that I don't want to break, just because I couldn't put all my stuff on hold while we waited and waited and waited...

The thing now is whether or not I would also have a job there, or could be there while maintaining my current position and fulfilling my commitments, like a leave of absence. It could happen, but it isn't definite.

I don't know about the schools there. I think the closest town just has one school, but the next town over might have more choices. Right now the kids are in a great school. They are in kindergarten and are reading entire books on their own, they can write their complete address including zip code, and they can add and subtract single digits. They also write in journals. Are there a lot of schools that do this in kindergarten?

H is the only one who has gone to visit so far, I've never been there. It isn't that he's applying to places he's not interested in. I know this is complicated, but basically there's only a few places (labs) in the world where he'd be interested in working. Only one of those labs is in North America, that's where he was working; the U.S. is just starting to build another such lab. That's the only place he's applied to, and that's the place that's now offered him a position.

I'm not happy where I am now, but I've had to make some long-range plans here that I am invested in and am interested in. This is the first place I've ever lived that I didn't really like. If this had happened a few months earlier I would've been a lot more enthusiastic about moving. The only things keeping me from being enthusiastic about leaving, are my commitments and plans here, and the kids' school and friends and access to skiing and biking, etc.

Jayne, it sounds like you identified some information you'd need to make some decisions together that you'd both be happy with. Like school, community, and work information. When H has wokred for companies that wanted to move his position, and want him to relocate so they don't have to sire someone else, they usually fly us all out to meet with some employees out there who take us around and show us what's what. Does your H's offer include something like this? Could you all afford to do this on your own? Can you afford NOT to Has he accepted yet?

The offer will probably include flying us both (or all) out there for a househunting trip. Maybe we could ask for a trip out there to help us decide, if we need it.

We don't know any of the specifics yet, such as the salary and whether they can find a position for me. We will see the person in charge on this trip to New Zealand and start to discuss these things.

Did I say yet, I finally got the official report from the highers-up regarding the recent events in my department here? They came out totally in support of me. Yay!

Hey everyone, it's me, jayne241, but I forgot my password...

I'm in NZ and my puter won't charge with our adapter/transformer. H's computer and our cell phone works with the adapter/transformer we bought, but mine doesn't so maybe my power adapter that came with the puter somehow broke on the trip???

Anyway I only have about 10 minutes of net access. My puter knows all my passwords etc but I don't, and I'm using H's puter right now so I made a new id to log in and say hi and let folsk know why I haven't been online.

Hi everyone! *wave*

Gotta run. If I get the power thingy resolved I'll be back later. If anyone knows anything about Mac power adapters for the new Macs, with the magnetic thingy, how to get a replacement one, or why the adapter/transformer to let North American plugs work in NZ outlets would work on the old-style Mac laptop adapters but not the new magnetic adapters, post here and I'll be able to read later...

Thx!

Ok, we've had several busy days of conferencing, and H has more details of the job offer. It's quite good! But we still don't know if something can be arranged for me also.

At the start of the trip I tried to tell H that I hope this trip serves as a "bonding" time for us, to strengthen our M or what have you. I'm trying, and sometimes it seems he's making an effort too, but he's incapable of meeting my main EN, for conversation. I would forfeit ALL other ENs if that one were met, which I think is why I've been able to maintain long distance relationships.

The first night here, I got the feeling that he wasn't excited about being here *with me*. I told him I felt like he'd be happier if he were here without me. We were both pretty tired from traveling. The next morning he gave me a peck (quick kiss - he doesn't kiss very often and almost never is it more than a little "peck") and said that he's having fun being here with me. I asked if that was true, or if he just wants it to be true, and he said a little of both.

I'm getting more and more indications that he really would prefer I just not try to talk to him at all. I'm again feeling like just resolving to not try to have any convos, and see what he does. I guess that could be seen as withdrawing, and it will certainly feel like withdrawing to me, since that's how I connect with ppl - by talking. I know that ppl were encouraging me to not withdraw. I need to go back and re-read, but I don't have much time before we have to go do some things.

I don't mean to be like those ppl who don't take the advice posted to them! I just don't have a lot of time online. If anyone has any suggestions, I'll be able to log back in later tonight, which is NZ time which I think is ... aw... 5 hours earlier than California and a day later???

jayne, can you do some research about how to communicate with someone who doesn't like to communicate? As in, find some other way to connect with him? On his level?

Jayne, I wish Jilly were here. I remember one time, I was feeling really similar, sinking into withdrawal, trying to fight myself out of that, and she sent me abunch of questions that really helped me clarify what was bothering me, what was within my power to change, and what I needed to accept. I don't mean accept as in accepting unacceptable behavior, but I mean accept as far as understanding what was going on that day.

Jayne, seriously, what do you think about calling the harley's on this one? There is a great book Telly recommended, How To Improve Your Realtionship without Talking about It that would help you reserve conversation as a fun thing, but really, the Harleys could give you two the insight that you need really quickly and in a really motivating way.

I encourage you to read Q&A>Meeting ENs>Conversation is Unpleasant and Boring article again, too. I'd be really interested in how you feel about what has been going on recently between you two.



Was this a DJ? What about asking for clarification? It sounds like you were trying to identify his feeling for him, instead of letting him identify them. Am I right about that? What was the reason that it made sense to do that? Does that still make sense to do that going forward?



Ouch! When I find myself asking H "yes or no" questions, it's because I'm not trusting that he's competent of thinking something through himself (what a DJ!), or that I'm trying to control the repsonse. Like, if I ask him for a small answer, maybe he won't get so mad with me that I'm asking him about his feelings.

But for you, jayne, why the close-ended instead of the open-ended question?



jayne, if you find yourself withdrawing, what about the 180? I think that's a relatively safer way to find the peace of withdrawal without sending your partner the message that you are blaming them for being the problem. Because when I think about it, it's not my partner himself who is the problem anyhow, but the broken ways that we try to relate to each other. The 180 is a list of rules, but I found this version a lot easier, over on the Al Turtle site: What to Do When Your Spouse Leaves

Thanks y'all, for the suggestions and the reminders.

I've done some reading, thanks to your comments. I'm actually playing hookie right now and don't have a lot of time but here's a few comments, trying to respond to your questions:

cat, yes I'll try to do some research into that.

ears, am I going crazy or did I read a shorter version of your post before I fell asleep, and now it's bigger?

Thanks for the reminder about the book, I'd forgotten it. I'll put it on my To-Read list as soon as I get a chance.

Thanks for the reminder about the article too. I'm reading it and re-reading it. Will discuss here when/if I get a chance.

re. DJ _ I thought I was asking for clarification. I'll watch for if I come across in a negative way instead of asking for clarification.

Same with yes or no questions - I *think* I do that because I haven't gotten much response from H with open-ended questions, but I'll have to think about and watch for that one too.

180 - Hmm. Sounds tempting. I'll try to incorporate the "Convo is boring" things, and read the link you gave.

Gotta run! Thanks for the help, even when I don't have much time to respond!!!!!

I'm playing hookie again. Six days of sitting in the same auditorium from 9:00 a.m. until 9:00 or 10:00 p.m. and I can no longer stay awake in there.

Here's my notes from reading the "Conversation is boring" article:


So true - it IS my most important EN, and when it suffers, nothing else H does seems to make deposits. OTOH it is NOT one of H's ENs, and probably the WAY I do it has made withdrawals.


This is exactly what seems to be happening. Just yesterday we had almost this exact conversation, of the 2nd paragraph, about "agendas": I said he interprets things I say as if I have agendas, when actually I'm just talking, trying to share whatever occurs to me; he said he could say the same thing about me. *sigh*

Like the article says, we have become defensive. We are not sharing our deepest feelings with each other. We are guessing about "hidden agendas."

The only thing that doesn't fit is, H wasn't much of a talker even before the M. So in a way I knew what I was getting into, only (1) I thought at least he was willing to listen to me talk; (2) at first I thought he was just shy, and he'd open up as trust grew; and (3) I knew that our M might have problems and this was one of them.

Friends of Good Conversation:

(1) Using conversation to investigate, inform, and understand your spouse: investigate the facts of each other's personal histories, present experiences and plans for the future. Also investigate each other's attitudes and emotional reactions to those facts.

When I do things like this, he expresses annoyance and tries to change the subject or get away. He absolutely does not want to confide any personal history stuff to me, and is uncomfortable when I try to share with him. He doesn't want to tell me anything about present experiences, and just tolerates it when I do. He certainly doesn't like me asking questions. For example, if I ask to clarify something, or even if I just didn't hear what he said. a lot of the time he just says "Nothing" or "Never mind" or whatever is the appropriate response for indicating "I didn't really say anything."

I definitely show the interest. But maybe he just doesn't trust me. Maybe working on building trust would help, maybe not. I'll try it.

Plans for the future, that's about the only thing he's willing to discuss. I'll try to do more of that. It's hard, it feels like I'm starving for protein and someone is offering me a piece of candy, so it's hard to get very enthusiastic about those conversations for very long without unconsciously veering off into something expressing feelings or opinions. In fact, any conversation that doesn't express feelings or opinions feels shallow to me. I'll try to remind myself though, to give this a try.


This isn't about withholding info about his "inner self" but it may illustrate just to what level he withholds info: Ever since we got here I've been trying to figure out how to phone home. Using the hotel phone, even with a credit card, seemed incredibly expensive. There were signs that my cell phone would work but when I tried, I got a weird beep beep beep. It didn't help that I only was able to try in the evenings when we got back to the hotel, and by then we were exhausted. I tried signing up for a calling card online during one of the talks, but I didn't have my glasses with me, plus my computer's power adapter doesn't work so I was using H's computer... I asked him to check to make sure I was signing up for the right thing and to complete the transaction (since I couldn't read the fine print). He did... but it was for a calling card that is only for within the U.S., and the card will be mailed to our house (instead of giving us a PIN number online) so it's utterly useless! He *knew* what my goal was, but he claims he just filled out whatever form I'd pulled up and I shouldn't have expected him to actually *read* it.

Ok, whatever. So we were discussing it with some others and someone suggested using Skype. So for the past day or two we've been saying we should sign up for Skype, again it's been hard finding a time when (a) we have internet access, (b) we have the time to spare, and (c) we aren't falling asleep already. So again, today I tried to do this during a talk. (Internet access is incredibly slow during the meeting cus a lot of ppl are trying to use the one wireless account set up for the conference.) So I find the Skype website and start downloading it, and I show him, and he says he already has it!!! And he stops the download. I ask him why he didn't mention that, any of the times we discussed it over the past two days, and he just non-chalantly says "I don't know." Not at all like "oops, I forgot" or anything.

GRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!

He tries to make nice to me by getting me a scone during the coffee break. I think one of his love languages is acts of service. Grrr. Everything else could get chucked in the river, if only I got quality time in the form of conversation.

Back to the article...


I guess the topic of love languages fits in with motivation. I think he considers my asking him questions an LB, but I can figure out some of these things maybe without him telling me. (See the title of this thread!) But... then it isn't really a conversation now, is it???

I better break this up into separate posts. This concludes the discussion of the first friend of good conversation!

BTW--- just as I am having trouble logging into my orig. acct here, I also am having trouble logging into my email accts. I'm used to my computer remembering all my usernames and passwords. If I'm slow in answering email, that's why.


This sounds like something I could try, and that would probably go over well with H.


Oh gawd, how I would love conversation with H to be a two-way street!!!!!


I've tried this. I will make a conscious effort to do this consistently during this trip.


I would also love for us to give each other 15 hours a week of UA. I would love for us to spend 15 minutes a day in UNDIVIDED attention conversation.

I know when I seek to discuss something with him, he doesn't want to give me UA. I' don't know but maybe there are times when he is ready to talk about future plans and I'm not prepared to give UA. I will try to watch for opportunities when he wants UA, and to grab those opportunities even if I'm tired or it means dropping something else I'm doing.

Grrr. I'm feeling resentment that I have to be the one to do that though.


This trip is an opportunity to give him some UA. I think what would mean my depositing the most into his account would be SF and RC.

Enemies of Good Conversation are next.

Yes, this may very well be what's going on with H now. Or maybe he just doesn't like to talk in general.


It's very likely that in my tone and/or in quick comments, that I am DJing. I really need to work on this. It's hard when I'm tired, to watch what I say, but I'll step up the effort.


I think one of H's ENs is Admiration, and I can see how dwelling on past mistakes would result in him being less enthusiastic about conversation. I think I've been trying to meet his EN for Admiration, and to not bring up past mistakes. But I'll keep watching for that.


Again, I think I've got this one under control, but I will watch for it also.


Like getting rid of LBs before working on ENs.