You might want to remove proper names (I don't think you intended in there).

Would you mind restraining from such letters? You are not the bad guy...you are half of the marriage and you're owning you did your half badly.

You are not a doormat. I don't see a lot of strong "I" statements...

How about you write out, for your own benefit, a complete "I" statement only of what you commit yourself to for your rebuilt or new marriage?

LA

I agree with LA. She chose to leave and divorce, not you. Let her own her own actions. You'll look better for being stronger.

I will answer that question being as I am the wife.

I have not and did not have any affairs.

What he is failing to tell you about me meeting someone is that that is what he wanted me to do. Being that we were swingers he decided he wanted me to have a boyfriend. I met the person once and then he did not like it. The guy I met has nothing to do with any of this. He did not like the fact that he did not have the control over it any longer.

Also the only FOG I have been in is from the control and manipulation he has put me through the last 4 years. Fear, Obligation and Guilt.

I believe you should own your actions hun, I have owned and will own mine and I continue to change the distructive ones. You have been active on the site and you have looked for sex. I also only see past tense references in that statement. Would it be possible that you ommitted the present by choice and that your choice to go thru with the divorce is based on that ommission?


I have no evidence telling me you "were" a swinger and are no longer. I do have evidence stating you still are.
This is a long story one thread has already been locked out on. I understand it made you feel like I did not like losing the control but do not state that as a fact. I own my own feelings and actions and you have yours. I have expressed many times that it was in fact I started to feel the pain of losing you and the fact that I found out you had filed for divorce a few weeks before that and had said nothing to me and made changes to agreements you knew I never would have agreed to had I known (which I feel is deception by purposeful ommission). and even more so when you refused NC for someone you barely knew for a couple weeks. I feel you chose to put him before me and our marriage. I had also stated many times that for me he had something to do with it. I also stated a few times that what you had said in the past was correct and we needed to work on our marriage desperately. I also stated that it made me less a part of you and that doing it together was something we and I had stated in the past was something we enjoyed. Fact also is right after you moved out you barely got down the road and your first phone call was to him (who you had met just 2 weeks prior). Either way I don't care about him I care about you and our marriage and that is why I have been working so hard and showing my unconditional love.



I don't feel that for 4 years I did this. I also feel and you have stated that you helped teach me this and I feel you should own that part of it also. There were also many other factors including my true EN's not even being known and many other things. I'm not shifting blame or taking it off myself I have owned my share. It was never something I did intentionally. If you want to continue to walk away then that is your choice. I will not let the past control my present or future I will only learn from it and correct it. I feel there is fog being used because the past is being considered to be present and future when in fact I feel I have not been controlling and have shown a much greater knowledge and acceptance of my true actions before and what they resulted in. I feel there is also fog in this because you express it as I intentionally did those things with malicous aforethought. I never once did those things with aforethought.

I'am here to save this marriage and/or relationship and have been and will continue to work hard towards that goal. I wish you to join me in this battle against our past and I hope you make that choice. I will respect either choice you make but I will no longer be a doormat or roller coaster. I hear and feel your anger, hurt and resentment. I wish I had the power to change the past. I only have the power to change the present and future and I will do so. I have faith you will join me in this fight, by my side and working together.

I love you hun.

Definately not intended, thank you LA.


Yes I will in the future.

Bunny,

Welcome back.

I understand you don't believe you're having an affair right now.

Would you consider this formula (provided by the poster Gimble)?

"An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect."

That's the elements which combine to generate fog.

I remember. You know why? I had an affair with resentment. I didn't respect nor understand respect. I only felt powerful in my resulting entitlement.

More than anything, I wanted to be blameless...to be right. So I didn't honor my marriage, didn't make and hold myself to marital boundaries to respect my marriage (even when I didn't admire my DH).

I sure learned how to play tit for tat, excelled at false intimacy, and kept having that deja vu of relieving my mistakes over and over as I didn't get my lessons. Sure thought I did.

I didn't exist except through others' eyes...that's when I materialized, took shape, had essence. It was really rough learning I was already complete, whole...for then, I understand my own existence, significance and I shuddered as I looked at my own responsibility (it's inherent) and what I'd done with it.

I can only be the cause, control and cure of myself, Bunny. I have inherent, constant choice...no one can make me do anything against my will. And I'm half of every relationship I have...nothing can change that. I can be all of my marriage, even though I can feel like I am, or believe that I am...not real...not a valid belief.

For as much as a control freak as I was...so was my DH. In his way, he, too, prized blamelessness above all else...in his mind, if only I would, wouldn't do/did, then he would/wouldn't...and when I stopped that dance, my half...then he finally found out his own self-deception, his own hidden beliefs...and saw the same thing I had...he is as powerful and limited as I am.

Because we're two humans in a human marriage.

You are more than your flesh. You exist when no one is looking...for you are there...

And when I was in the fog of my entitlement, my blameshifting, experiencing my entitlement as if it were power instead of fantasy, I said OM had nothing to do with it, either. For I blamed my own choices on my DH.

I did that. One of the most startling experiences I had in coming to MB was discovering by reading and studying, what affairs are...when we put anyone or anything ahead of our marriage...a hobby, a person, even an emotion...like rejection or revenge...then WE aren't honoring...not our spouses. Us. We choose.

Until we choose differently.

In your marriage there is you, ezb and The Marriage. Two halves and one whole...and The Marriage did not agree to infidelity...didn't earn or deserve it...your union can't make either of you protect, honor or respect it...just like you can't make one another cherish, value, honor or respect.

Were you trying to shame ezb, call him a liar in your post? One who lies by omission? You knew he'd already had a thread locked because of the reactivity of other posters here...because he doesn't/didn't consider swinging as infidelity.

We are two humans in a human marriage...complex and complicated beyond comprehension, though simple--nowhere easy. Believing you can separate humans into their components...body from mind, mind from emotions, emotions from spirit...what a game. We are one whole being...and every part of us affects the rest.

Playing at marriage is sorrow-filled and dangerous. Recovery, thriving in your marriage--now that's when life stuns and thrills us entirely.

All from choices...even to choose to do that which you will resent...to act from your fear...honor not obligate, and know healthy guilt or healthy shame from the sick kind. So we choose our lives...and what you do not grow from now, you will repeat...again and again...mounting harm, pain, fear and anger...much more to grieve...and repeat...until we choose differently.

LA

PS--I also learned while here on MB that others do not influence us...unless we allow them to. I cut out (shut the door all the way) on my DH's influence when I had an A...see, I was powerful all along...I controlled how much others influenced me...picked my guides...which is where the fog is real...for in hindsight, when you're out, you look back and think, "What was I thinking?" If you have to justify a decision, then rethink it. Most likely, it's part self-deception you can't even see.

So because I want to be myself and not be controlled or manipulated any longer I am having an affair? Not all the people on here actually leave the marriage because of an affair. All though he had been having an EA with the lifestyle for the better part of our marriage. I did not leave because of someone else, resentment, entitlement or lack of respect.

bunny, I am curious about something. Did you feel manipulated and pushed into accepting your H's adultery? [aka swinging] I started a thread for you a while back on GQ11 if you have any interest in talking to us. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubb...in=150356&Number=2051936#Post2051936

How many times have you talked to, texted, chatted with, seen, or slept with this other person since you moved out? I think that would be my criteria for whether you are having an affair. If you say once, I would agree with you. If you say 7 times, I'd disagree.

I apologize I should not have jumped in on the question.

Yes I felt manipulated and pushed into doing the swinging. If I did not do it then what little bit of affection/attention I did get got completely taken away and got the silent treatment tell I gave in.

I have only talked to him twice and that was to tell him to stop contacting me both times. Once the day I left and the second time was I believe like a week later because he contacted me again. And before I moved out it I slept with him once because ezb wanted me to have a boyfriend.

Cat (and any others who wish to comment),


Would you say that this should date back to thee event of her filing for divorce? Would you say that her logging into the swinger website alone should be considered an A?

Events in order:

1. She filed for divorce (early to mid Feb.)
2. We agreed to swing seperately
3. I attempted (thought I did but I had to take different website action to accomplish) to hide my profile
4. (minutes after #3) Sat down and admitted to her that she had been right and we needed to solely work on our marriage
5. (same conversation as #4) She informed me she had already filed
6. (same conversation) I informed her I no longer agreed to swinging let alone seperate
7. 2 weeks later she moved out
8. She has continued to be active on the website ever since

Just to let everyone know I have communicated with my wife that she is more then welcome on my threads. I have total openess and honesty on my part ever since the divorce was discovered. (not that i didn't before that)

We also will not be addressing each other due to this being an agreed NC day.

[/quote]


Cat (and any others who wish to comment),


Would you say that this should date back to thee event of her filing for divorce? Would you say that her logging into the swinger website alone should be considered an A?

Events in order:

1. She filed for divorce (early to mid Feb.)
2. We agreed to swing seperately
3. I attempted (thought I did but I had to take different website action to accomplish) to hide my profile
4. (minutes after #3) Sat down and admitted to her that she had been right and we needed to solely work on our marriage
5. (same conversation as #4) She informed me she had already filed
6. (same conversation) I informed her I no longer agreed to swinging let alone seperate
7. 2 weeks later she moved out
8. She has continued to be active on the website ever since [/quote]

Ok some things need to be cleared up with this also.

Number 4 & 6 did not happen during the same conversation.

4. was never admitted to me tell much later and still then it was never said or agreed by him that we should solely work on our marriage.
6. This was not told to me tell several weeks later after I asked about it. I was told he did not want to do it separate any longer. It was not during the same conversation.
7. Lets clear up why I moved out. I was accused of cheating when I was going to my girl friends house for a girls night and to meet her boy friend.
8. He has also continued to be active on the website. He even started another profile including me without asking me about it. If a profile is hidden I don't know how active you can really be.

Yes I do admit I tried to contact someone but that backfired on me. That was the one and only time since I left that I have tried to do anything. All the other times I have been on is only to email my friend that lives out of state.

I also have only gone out twice which he got mad about but he has been out several times to the bar and flirting with people. So would that not also be a type of affair.

ez, when did you agree to stop committing adultery? Do you mean for JUST NOW or forever? Because when I questioned you about this previously, you told me a)swinging was not the problem, b) you hadn't been swinging recently and c) yes, it had caused problems.

In fact, your vigorous defense of your adultery to me and others on the thread gave me the impression that it was very important to you.

Have you agreed to give it up for life?

Affairs entail emotional connection, pretty much; without that, you're just having sex with other people. JMO

Honestly, I don't see how to resolve y'all's issues - even to get to divorce - if you can't even agree on what happened. Are you going to go to mediation before the divorce? Maybe that's what's needed, since you're both hunkered down in self-defense mode and unwilling to budge on who's the most wrong.

Here is what you told me on 5-3-2008:

thread here

You even denied it was adultery and refused to answer that question on 5-3-2008 so has anything changed since then?

I would also point out that you told me you committed adultery as recently as February 2008.

I feel there is some major fog here thats for sure.



I hear your statement.


The man in question texted her while she was in the shower getting ready to go asking if they were still on for that night.


I have not been active on the site and do not have a profile that I check daily. I started this profile and informed her that I was meerly giving her an option to transfer the lifetime membership and delete the old profile should there be any emails or contacts that were done in anger.


I have asked for proof of this and she refuses. The friend she refers to she has an outside email for and a phone number.

Neither of us have agreed to give it up for life.