Then let me understand this. If we got into it for me to explore why would it be neccessary for you to be involved untell i was ready or at all. Or for me to not stop the whole thing if I was not comfortable with it like i told you so many times.

The way you expressed it was by taking away the attention/affection on purpose.

I see this will be ignored.



I feel there is some major fog here thats for sure.



I hear your statement.


The man in question texted her while she was in the shower getting ready to go asking if they were still on for that night.



I have not been active on the site and do not have a profile that I check daily. I started this profile and informed her that I was meerly giving her an option to transfer the lifetime membership and delete the old profile should there be any emails or contacts that were done in anger. The only reason I log in is to see if she has changed her or if shes still checking it daily. There is a very simple way for her to prove this and she refuses to do so. Creates fog by saying that I only want to control and manipulate it. How can having her log into with me not seeing the password and letting me actually look at these supposed only to her girlfriend emails be manipulating and controlling? FOG

[quote]
Yes I do admit I tried to contact someone but that backfired on me. That was the one and only time since I left that I have tried to do anything. All the other times I have been on is only to email my friend that lives out of state. [quote]

I have asked for proof of this and she refuses. The friend she refers to she has an outside email for and a phone number.

ezb,

Did you read my post to your wife? Can we talk about why swinging harms marriages?

LA

I understand you felt I did that at the start as a way of manipulation. I never intended it to be that way hun. I have stated I subconsiously learned that technique. I felt hurt that for so long I put your feelings before mine and I felt you never really tried to listen to mine until you started giving in. My withdrawl to start was always what I have done when I feel hurt and not listened to. I own up to the fact that I learned it was a way to manipulate and control and that I became that person and I never again want to be that person. I remember in Dr. Jones office the one time that I couldn't finish the sentence without you getting it out that it wasn't going to happen. That hurt me deep. Now I know it is no excuse to withdraw and I'm not trying to make that excuse. I should have never pulled away from you and for that I'm terribly sorry and I have learned it's not the right way to be in a marriage.

I have learned so many things over the past 3 months. I have done all this inspite of my worldwind mental state of shock from this and from my dad. If you remember I found out 2 days after you moved out he had cancer. Would it be ok for you to understand that and the fact and insecurity of what Ma (uknowwho) brought to the table and you refusing NC and to consider all the realizations and changes I have made? I'm not asking you to applaud but yet instead acknowledge something if you can to the positive side?

Yes I read your post LA. I'm not really at the staage to discuss that at this time. I feel there is too much on our plate at the moment that we need to sort out and I did not want to bring that into my changes at this time. I'am not currently swinging though, have no intentions of doing so and have not since Feb.

I have to apologize for not being aware of the previous threads and of the issue of swinging; it would have changed a lot of my responses. Not as a personal attack on you, ezb, but as a realization that the situation you were describing was not as cut and dry as you would have us believe.

So I have some questions.

In what way - or for what reason - did you feel hurt and rejected and resentful? For what things? Words, actions, lack of action...Please be specific so we can better help you two. How did she hurt you?

Is this paragraph about the swinging/not swinging? Or something else? When you say 'giving in,' are you talking about her agreeing to swinging? If so, are you saying that you put her feelings before yours, in the manner of NOT swinging until she agreed? If so, are you saying that by having to wait until you convinced her, that you were feeling hurt by her? When you say you couldn't finish a sentence in the doctor's office, are you talking about a sentence about wanting to swing, and her then interrupting you and saying she wouldn't? And that because either she interrupted you, or because she wouldn't agree, you were hurt 'deep'?

I'm not being facetious, I really am trying to understand this new dynamic so I can figure out some sort of solution.

Let me clearly state more my reason for this so it is not viewed otherwise:

I'am not involved in the lifestyle
I have no intentions to be involved in the lifestyle
All our marriage we have jumped around trying to solve issues going from one thing to another and have not resolved the last thing we were on (now I know it sometimes happens that you need to step back and take a breath from things to soak in and acknowledge and I convey that fact)

Sorry it was not meant to be an ommission. The last thread was locked out when the subject came up and you and LA have been very helpful, thank you.



In what way - or for what reason - did you feel hurt and rejected and resentful? For what things? Words, actions, lack of action...Please be specific so we can better help you two. How did she hurt you?[/quote]

Because my feelings were struck down after awhile IMO. I felt rejected and hurt that I could not enjoy involvement also (after some time of just seeing her get enjoyment. I couldn't understand why she would be so selfish as to not want me to enjoy things too. I felt jealousy of the others that could and I felt she didn't love me enough to consider my feelings (all this happened after a period of time).

It's about her not wanting or being ready for me to be involved also. I mean her agreeing to allow me to swing also, she had already been. Yes. Yes. Yes but she had already been it was me wanting to be able to have fun also. Yes I was hurt very deeply but hurt first because she would not even listen to what I had to say.

LA I apologize. I don't mean to close my mind or shut things out. If you have things you would like say or add then please do.

More weasel words, ez.

You said in a previous post on this thread TODAY:

"Neither of us have agreed to give it up for life."

You stated on 5-3-2008:

ML: Since you admit it caused damage, I will ask again, will you commit to forgo your adultery FOR LIFE since you claim your goal is to repair your marriage?


ez: Your asking a question I have no answer for at this time Mel.

See, ezb, that's the core of the marriage. Until you decide (and not from being shamed or arm-twisted...from seeing marriage in a whole new way), then there isn't anything to build on.

You can't stand for your marriage if you are saying you will permit others to come into it...even as soulless bodies...won't work. Not really standing for The Marriage...means you're standing for a fluctuating, unprotected relationship with very limited intimacy.

I'm sorry, ezb...it's the place to start. Only one to start with. I realize you're being very honest in NOT committing to not swinging in the future.

Again...I'm not condemning you. As I said, I'm married to a Recovering Sex Addict...I do understand...takes another kind of addict to live with it (we have our own payoff) and it manifests in many ways...and it has nothing to do with sex...it's about secrets, which is control and manipulation...and it's about self-destruction, distraction...

It's not about freedom...because no one can cage us. We choose.

It's not about trapping someone into loving you--you're not that powerful.

It's about distracting from your own greatness, your own depths...and since that's where I see you now focused, with ownership...then it remains what will destruct you, your marriage and all of your relationships over time.

In my experience.

LA

Mel,

I kindly asked you to stay off my threads. I have and will respect your request on the other thread so please show me the same. Thank you.

I understand I am upsetting you and I understand WHY you would rather have LA post to you than me. I will honor your request to not post here; I will go post to your wife instead. Take care and good luck...

You might feel you understand but you have no idea who I'am and what all has transpired and you continue to show disrespect in even replying to my request you stay away from my threads. I can say with conviction you do not understand because you lack the knowledge of our past to even comprehend and you have not even asked any question to try to understand. Your gorilla tactcs might work with some but it does not and will not work with me. Take care also and well wishes either way.

Well, hopefully LA can show you better "understanding." In the meantime, I will go give your wife some much needed HELP out of this hellacious mess.

Now I'm confused a bit...see, I don't know why you're apologizing to me.

Do not apologize when you didn't cross a boundary...for if you do, you may not apologize when you do.

That's something I learned...for most of my life, I said "sorry" all the time, a lot of it inappropriately. And didn't own or apologize when it was appropriate. That's why I believe boundaries always travel two ways on the street...

and ask you to consider not apologizing for something you didn't do.

Also hides (misdirects?) what you may really be attempting to communicate...like camoflauge.

Are you saying you feel sorrow, maybe, for something in regards to my request, my post, your thoughts, your experience when you made that post?

Only you know. I'm asking.

LA

Edit: Oh, now I see...you quoted my post twice in two different posts to me. I guess I overlapped them. Btw, there is an ignore feature here on MB when MB posters choose not to honor your request to not post to them. You can ask, notify moderator, and third boundary enforcement, ignore. Just a heads up.

Your wife states that she didn't want to swing, yet finally agreed to, after being mentally battered to participate by you. Which is it? Were you already swinging when you met her? Was she? She says no, and you say that she said she was just bi-curious. Which is it?

So when you finally started swinging, are you saying that ONLY she did? That you sat back and watched as she had sex with other people? That you wanted to be part of it and she wouldn't let you? That you asked and asked, but she wouldn't say yes, and you started feeling like she didn't love you because she wouldn't let you have a threesome or foursome or even another partner? Because that is completely the opposite of what she is saying. At least one of you is lying. Which is it?

I'm gonna go run over to her thread and ask her the same thing, I think. Do some detective work.

I've already started there back in the first week of March. Yes I'm being totally honest in not being able to promise to never wanting to swing again. I can't hurt her like that and for me to promise that would in itself be manipulating. Can I promise to get us intimate and totally straight? Yes I can. Can I promise to make all my changes permanent that I'm working on? Yes I can promise that because I have taken the steps to ensure that. Have we both agreed that to stop swinging right now? No we have not both agreed to that. I have but she has not. I have repeatedly asked her many times over the course of this seperation if we are exclusive sexually and she has yet to answer that question. There is a lot of fog and ommissions she is putting out and doing it in these threads also.


Can you expand on this please? Why would owning up to my past faults and changing them be destructive (if I'm hearing you correctly in saying that)?

She was bicurious before we ever met. She told me she wanted to explore it and I encouraged her, not battered. That went on for 2 1/2 years her exploring her bi side with me not being involved with anyone else so yes she swung and I didn't for that time of our relationship and marriage. She wasn't ready for me to get involved even after the 2 1/2 years. I began to resent the fact she would not listen to my feelings on wanting to be involved and enjoy also and felt that my listening to her feelings on it did not matter and she did not appreciate or show reciprocation in considering mine.


I have not lied or purposely ommitted anything. I feel she still has not understood how hurt I was by all that.

I believe we only change when we change our beliefs.

What you may have seen in your past actions; at the time, would you say you justified them? And now, in restrospect, you believe they were destructive?

You've said you saw where you began to control and manipulate...would you consider during that transition time, your belief changed? See, what wasn't your intent before (withdrawing to punish) became your intent...takes a change in belief.

"I believe this works. I'll work it." Not consciously...just a shift from believing "I feel rejected so I'll remove myself" to the other.

I'm asking you to consider your deepest belief about swinging because we act from our beliefs...

You want a truely intimate, third-stage marriage of mature love...that's what I'm hearing. That's your goal. Can you see how not changing your belief will prohibit you from attaining that?

You experienced exclusion in your wife's choice to sleep with other women...would you focus on that exclusion for a moment? How does that build intimacy?

And if sex is just sex, doesn't represent (as Harley says) an EN for us, doesn't symbolize all of you giving your "self" to your wife, nor she, you...then you can only be intimate emotionally but not physically? You have to deny part of yourself?

Cherishing is the act of putting your marriage in the top slot of your priorities...cherishing involves exclusion of all others from your partnership at the top.

If you put anything ahead of your top priority, then you're not cherishing it, are you?

We certainly say, "Oh yeah, that's my top priority" and then act as if it isn't. And from our own actions, we can really see what IS our top priority.

For example, someone who puts work ahead of their marriage, via time allotted, family plans cancelled, being consumed by work assignments that they forget special occasions...or always sharing about work and not listening to their partner when they speak, for thinking about work.

They may have stated, "My marriage is my top priority. By working this way, I'm meeting my partner's EN for FS. That's why I do it." Is it really, or is it the payoff of self-image...for many of us have done this...and later come to understand that we were breaking our marriage apart to meet a single EN to keep it? Really?

We can know what beliefs we are really acting from by seeing our actions...and when we say "Okay, I'm gonna really change this time" we gotta check ourselves...for the times before, was it to change our self-image (how others see us, what they believe of us) or was it because we changed our beliefs?

LA