Thanks for all the replys.

I do think I am caught by a couple things here. She is trying to deal with her childhood problems in addition to hopefully withdrawal. She did write something last week on her computer about not understanding why she can't be friends with the OM and being depressed cuz they can't be friends. It was never sent to me but I caught on the keylogger.

She is feeling really tied up right now and angry. She knows that I am worried about what she is doing so she unwillingly send me updates on what she is doing all day. She does not like it and it taking it as another way to be tied up.

At first she liked the MB principles but now she wants nothing to do with them. She has said that I treat it like a bible and following it too much.

I have tried to address the independence thing but the only option she wants is to being in the apartment for a couple of days a week. She doesn't want any other options and says I just don't understand. She has all the time in the world during the day to do things that are independent and she does. Taking the kids to lunch, going shopping, going to the park on the golf cart with the kids. We have help during the day and daycare so she could also do things for herself.

You really AREN'T paying attention to any of this advice are you?

Well, until you stand up for yourself, you will continue to be her doormat ... NOTHING will change, because there is no incentive to change.

Also, get this MLC BS out of your mind. "MOST" of us see this as nothing more than a WW trying to justify and excuse her bad choices, by making excuses about why its not "HER" fault. Time for her to own her [censored] ... and you to make a stand ... or move on to Plan D.

Make a stand? I've told her NO to going to the apartment. I have been and will continue to try catch her communicating with the OM if indeed she is. I have spoken to her about independence and told her that she can do other things to be feel independent.

OK, let's break this down a little. Yes, you told her NO, but she still continues to attempt to manipulate you into changing your mind, so the message isn't being received fully.

So, let's put it in terms that she can't "spin" for her own purpose, and insist that the apartment be given up.

Time to ESTABLISH and MAINTAIN a firm boundary: "I will not remain in a marriage where my wife insists on escaping for days from the family that we created together."

Of course it isn't being received fully. That's because she's in the fog. Nothing will be clearly accepted right now.

Not possible. There's always a way for waywards to "spin" something. If he puts it the way you say, she can just say he's 'threatening' her, 'controlling' her, etc. Nothing he says right now is going to get her to change her from wanting to go to the apartment. So he shouldn't waste his time trying to change the way she feels. He should continue to stand his ground that he doesn't agree with it, doesn't support it and won't discuss it as an option.

There is a difference between feelings and actions. He can validate her feelings ('You feel like you're trapped and want some independence.') but disagree with how to act on them ('I'm sorry you feel that way. I don't feel we should spent time apart.')

I think BHHFSGuy is right on the money here. I think familyman is going to HAVE to validate her feelings if he is going to see any success here.

I get the impression - am I right familyman - that he is not ready to throw away his marriage - that he still has fight in him to save it. He has FOUR small kids. I don't think he's ready to divorce yet.

The thing to remember is that familyman has only been here for what - a month or so? His WW has only been in NC for a couple of weeks at most, right? I think advising familyman to "go to plan D" if his wife brings up the topic of the apartment again is ludicrous. Of course she is going to bring it up again. He can stand his ground on that. Make it a boundary. He MUST NOT agree to her going to the apartment. But at this point, no-body should expect her to be fog-free. Expect she will bring it up again.

In Plan A, you are supposed to be trying to meet her ENs. You are supposed to be showing her that life can be good if she stays in the marriage. Laying down ultimatums won't help.

I have already told her that I will not agree to her going to the apartment. The boundary has already been set. She is totally in a fog not thinking about anything but herself. I am suspicious that the A is still ongoing and am trying to uncover that. Telling her that she has to get rid of the apartment or no marriage sounds like a demand(LB) which I thought was to be avoided in Plan A.

This board is full of BH's who were afraid to take a stand, that are now divorced, or worse, simply existing in loveless marriages.

He IS taking a stand! He already told her he will not agree to her going to her apartment. He is keeping a vigilant eye out to make sure she is not still seeing OM. What more is he supposed to do?

If he divorces her over the apartment, than he will end up divorced. So I don't quite see your point, MyRev.

familyman, you're right - you are NOT supposed to make demands or ultimatums in Plan A. DO NOT agree to her going to the apartment... but she may well choose to go, and divorcing her over it will not save your marriage. You may need to go to Plan B... but Plan D is a long time in the future, if ever.

familyman,

I have one more thing to say that I just found the words for.

MyRev doesn't believe the stuff about MLC. I am not sure myself whether this is something real for her or something directly caused by the affair fog.

I caution you, though, not to simply dismiss it. To simply dismiss her claim of being in MLC would be to completely invalidate her feelings. And THAT is a perfect example of a Disrespectful Judgement - a major Love Buster.

I don't see you doing this, btw. I think you are making the right moves right now... and I think you're going to be on a tightrope for a little while - in the middle of a balancing act. You are going to have to feel your way across, you are going to have to find the right balance yourself. I think you're doing a good job at it so far, and I am praying for you to find the right balance.

So, in effect, his plan is "Just Say NO!!!"

How's that been working for him for the past month???

Plan A is a waste of a BH's self-respect after a week or so. Unless fm999 TRULY STANDS UP to his WW, then she has NO incentive to change.

All you really have to do is pay attention and look around this site at the various BH's. Now obviously this is not an exact science, but MUCH MORE OFTEN than not, those BH's that take a strong stance wind up in manageable marital recovery (or are better off from a personal recovery perspective) ... those that don't, just bounce around aimlessly, while their WW's shred their last remaining bits of self respect.

... and from my perspective, divorce is preferable to existing in the humiliation of "limbo".

Personally, I'm a firm proponent on drawing a line in the dirt early on, and the WW can either get on board, or be left behind, because I believe, and I think the results bear it out, that unless a WW has enough remaining underlying love and respect for her BH to break if off with OM after discovery, then the chances of a successful recovery after the BH living in limbo for any length of time is unlikely at best.

He's got four small children. He's got more at stake here than his ego.

MB and the Harleys do not recommend doing Plan A for only a week or so, then kicking the wayward to the curb. Plan A isn't supposed to go on forever... but certainly more than a week. I believe the recommendation is 3 months for a man.

What are you basing your advice on?

Just my observations here ... when it comes to BH/WW situations, Plan A is WORTHLESS after a very short period, because the WW looses what remaining respect she may have for the BH, who has now become her DOORMAT.

The 180 is a MUCH better plan for BH's than Plan A. There are only slight differences on the surface, but they appear to make huge differences in RESULTS, mainly because the BH acts from a position of strength, rather than weakness.

I'm sorry, I know a lot of you put a lot of stock in the Harley's program, but for BH's, the "claims" just don't match up with the "results".

OK, then what would the 180 call for here?

A 180 is simple.
"If you are doing something and you are getting a negative (or no) response, then do the opposite." Michele Weiner-Davis

"If one person in the relationship changes, then the relationship WILL change in some way." Michele Weiner-Davis

Basically, fm999 needs to enforce his boundary about the apartment and then "move on with his life". He needs to let WW see what life would look like without him in the picture.

So in other words... if she goes to stay a night at the apartment, familyman should do what? Change the locks, immediately file for divorce and get emergency custody of the children?

And that's going to make her want to stay in the marriage?

I'm sorry... I think that's way too drastic.

I'm not opposed to the 180 plan - but filing for divorce is no way to save a marriage. (I'm sorry if that's not what you're saying, but you're being kind of vague on specific advice.) I think a 180 would be more like "stop talking about the R, stop acting upset, stop asking to spend time together, stop being available at the drop of a hat to help with problems, start spending time on your own, start acting like everything in your life is going fine, start pulling away emotionally from the WW." All of those, I would agree, are valid actions.

But kicking her to the curb... at a time when she is KNOWN to be foggy... during what could possibly be her withdrawal from the affair... won't get the results, I am convinced. It will send her rushing back into the waiting arms of OM.

An affair - or a mid-life crisis, if you will - take time to recover from. I think your approach is more dramatic, clearly, but I doubt very much that mercilessly kicking a wayward wife to the curb is going to win her back.

What you see as "kicking her to the curb" ... I see as the BH standing up for himself.

In my case, my WW had emotionally detached herself over my angry outbursts ... she had convinced herself that I simply "didn't care". Her biggest "revelation" as to my level of committment was when I stood up to her on D-Day and said ... "make up your mind RIGHT HERE and RIGHT NOW ... I Love You, but I will NOT SHARE YOU" ... and here's the key ... I MEANT IT, and SHE KNEW I MEANT IT. If she would have hesitated or waffled, I would have told her to pack a bag and LEAVE ... RIGHT NOW!!!

Most WW's EXPECT their BH to leave them upon discovery. However, IF that doesn't happen, they see a great "cake eating" opportunity, and BH becomes BD (Betrayed Doormat) going forward.

Also, LISTEN to what the FWW's here tell you about their experience. Almost every one of them admit that the defining moment for them was when their BH had finally had enough and drew a line in the dirt and FORCED them to stop eating cake.

WW's just appear to respond MUCH MORE positively to a strong BH. They see him "acting" as their protector, who is willing to fight for them, instead of the "image" they created of the BH in their head to justify the A.

I wonder what a 180 on this issue would do?

Imagine telling her: "Hey honey, I have reconsidered. I think you should move into the apartment, not just a couple days a week though, I don't think that will really provide you with the "independence" you need and deserve. I think you should move there permanently. I'll drop the kids off with you every other weekend and we'll see how it goes. Of course, I'd need your financial assistance while you're gone, I would probably have to hire a nanny, etc. But I'm sure we could make it work."

Don't cache it as a separation or child support or any of the normal "divorce" words. Keep it simply in terms of providing her "independence". Right now, you are trying to pull her towards you, and she is trying to pull away. If you change that dynamic, and she starts to feel you pushing her away, I would not be suprised to see her reverse course and try to push back towards you.

Just something to consider. Offer her her independence, just make sure that it is on YOUR terms.

I disagree with MyRev about the timeline of plan A. Plan A takes months to have an effect. There does come a time, however, where Plan A behavior becomes doormat behavior. A WS that persists in an A past D-Day and continues the abuse beyond a withdrawal period is imo a very big red flag for the BS that the WS is getting ready to walk all over them.

Your WW's need for "independence" really is a statement that she is not ready to fully commit to marriage. Whether there is still OM involved (I would bet that there is) is really irrelevant in terms of your reaction.

The more I run the possible scenarios through my head, the more I like the idea of you suggesting to your WW that she move to the apartment permanently. I suspect she will strongly resist the idea, as it does not suit her desire to cake eat. I suspect the discussion will end up being her arguing for why she should stay.

You would need to be very prepared for the discussion though.

I agree with the Tyk on this statement. In my opinion, she is still in what could be considered a reasonable withdrawal period, as it has only been a couple of weeks. I agree it is possible she may still be in touch with OM - but if she is not, I would still expect her to be in the withdrawal period, and I would still expect her to be foggy.

Familyman, how are things going today? Has she brought up the apartment again?