You asked if I wanted to discuss the book. I do. Do you have specific thoughts about it? I found it gave me a new perspective on many things...some good/some bad.

I found your post!

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the book.

I felt relieved when I read it. (I am going to re-read it as we talk about it since it's been a couple of years, 'k?)

One of the best and worst parts of the book was realizing that my DH's reactions in our marriage weren't all about me...

Nor mine, his...

LA

I did have a few revelations about my H and my marriage while reading the book.

1. I realized that it's normal for my H to want to be nurtured in the relationship. I just didn't realize that it was normal for him to expect his needs to be met w/o expressing them.

2. I realized that I want to be nurtured, but I am more willing to express my needs to a certain extent. (we both have passive-aggressive tendencies and are conflict avoiders...I'm trying (hesitantly) to work on this).

3. I'm not sure if I can handle the responsibility of "completing" my H as I'm beginning to feel like he's a stranger (he won't have deep conversations w/me since his A a couple of years ago).

4. I'm in the (early) process of working towards a degree in Psych and ultimately a Masters in Social Work and Counseling and want to incorporate Imago into my (eventual) practice.

5. I do believe in deep introspection for habits/attitudes which are so ingrained in ourselves since childhood. H had a very abusive father who methodically emotionally/physically abused him in early childhood.

6. I like and believe in MB concepts, but also feel like (for situations like ours) that it doesn't hit deeply enough...it's only surface. I think H is likely to repeat his behavior unless he has some serious therapy. He is not on board with MB, but IS doing surface stuff to help our marriage...I just don't know what's underneath, whether it's molification or if it's real.

I'm going to review the book again for further points. Thank you for your inputs and interest in this.

How about your feelings? When you realized it was common for him to expect without expressing, what did you feel? Do you remember as a child your caregiver telling you, essentially, when you were hungry (then feeding you); when you were sleepy (putting you down for a nap); though you didn't verbalize? Remember the eyes in the back of the head idea...the mindreading of early nurturing? A lot of assumptions in caregiving.

Are you saying you also had some hidden expectations of having your ENs met before you focused on stating them?


That's wonderful news...I've got to dig out that book to find where Hendrix believes we do complete each other. I got his explanation of why we go into marriage believing this...how we experience it...not that we actually do it. We complement, not complete, was my understanding. I'll check on it.

How about your expectations for deep conversations...what you expect them to sound like, feel like? And are you guys doing the 15-20 hours of UA as RC each week?


That's awesome...were you already taken with Imago prior to reading the book?


I got from your statement previously that his non-intimate communication began post-A...so I'm not sure where to put this information. He had the same upbringing pre-A as post...

Sounds to me like you're saying you know where his habitual perception/perspective comes from, not as an excuse rather as information. You know it isn't about you. From the book, did you see the things in his father/mother/siblings that attracted him to you, as well as the issues he wanted to work out? How about you, what did you identify?


I believe in acting from the MB concepts to act love and respect, so we experience it...and by practicing Radical Honesty, the deeper stuff becomes shared, comes to the surface, because we are safe in respect, acceptance and love.

Would you consider you're now seeing more of a stranger since his A as both a blessing and an issue? I believe a big part of the lure of an A is the clean slate involved...it's not real just feels that way...of a new person who doesn't know all of you, as your spouse does...does NOT know you inside and out, your history...so it's all about your self-image, the fantasy...projecting who you want to be seen as...see your FWH as new, now, can be really attractive.

Gottman writes about it in his books...puts in these exercises of asking NOW what you've assumed you've known for years...to break assumptions...and I'm wondering if that's part of what you also picked up on, hence, your perspective shift.

There's fear in seeing your partner as a stranger...stranger danger...which is why we do assume, pat down who others are...doing both, though...holding your fear and accepting this is real for you right now (not forever) and getting to know him now is that middle ground where we thrive. Also might help point you towards see more of the initial attraction issues changed again...regarding how you want to be nutured and what you want to learn.

As for me, I married a man who thought before he spoke, which was something I'd wanted to learn and do myself. My assumption was that it meant he was careful with his thoughts, words and deeds; very aware and involved in connecting to others.

He was my sister and in ways my father in this regard. I, too, had no clue that withdrawal (and silence without withdrawal of presence) could be controlling. That action and non-action were equal. I hear you! And I had no idea how deep my urge to control everything, run my world, was inside me.

Since I couldn't see my own, I surely couldn't see his ways. And in the first stage of marriage, he did talk a lot...up all night in that mad infatuation attraction stage...wish I'd known how to really listen back then! I could have stored it better.



It was five years ago at this time that I asked him to leave for the first time...because of his non-connection (the way I experienced it) and he said he just wasn't made that way. I said, remember when...and he said nothing...I was crying at the time, really angry, doing my ol' AO and DJ stuff (like breathing to me) and after a pause, he said, "I'll see you downstairs for dinner."

That was it. His self-image told him he was incapable of talking a lot, throwing his stuff out there as it came...observations, realizations, his concerns...at that time, I didn't realize that for my half of the marriage, through my LBs, I really made it unsafe for him to do so.

All I focused on back then was getting him to do/think/say/believe/change/change/change and then I'd be happy.

I remember. I experienced that growing up with my stepmother...if only she could get me to do/think/say/believe/change/change then both of us would be happy.



What is partner nurturing? To me it is Harley's meeting ENs, understanding each other's separateness, our equality, and love languages...understanding, not controlling. Nurturing ourselves and our partners with the four rules of marriage...practicing together...changing our old attitude habits.

And doing so without overlapping it with our parental acts. Tough stuff.

LA

I'm not sure I got your answer in the above quote...are you saying you felt frustrated and still feel frustrated because you did when he didn't? Or you do when he doesn't? I'm confused. Am I understanding you feel resentment because when you needed him most to stand by you through a very scary time, instead, you chose to stand by him, eat your fear, and fear of losing your marriage, as well? Like he double-whammied you?

About your relationship with your parents...are you saying your father was a listener and your mother was a solver? In relation to the book, what traits have you identified in your FWH from FOO?

Would you consider that your background was lacking in exampling healthy ways to deal with conflict, that your H was originally very attractive to you for his CA? Maybe the same for him seeing in you?

Funny to consider CA as attractive...I know it was strongy for me in DH...I experienced so much conflict growing up and each way of responding to it was shot down...I really liked DH's approach, which was avoidance...he called himself laid-back, a peacemaker, saw himself as not escalating or addressing conflict...better to remove and walk it off, put it in the past...

Part of it was very healthy...when he'd set a time and day to address it...and keep that appointment.

Now you understand far better we connect through conflict, as well...you're changing...is your FWH's CA now very unattractive to you?

Very scary place you're in right now (and have been), in the mindset that another OW is in the offing, at any time. Does that mean that FWH has not in the last year owned what he did, why he did it and why he won't do it again?

Are you saying you have the tools for recovery and not the cooperation? What about your personal recovery?

I got lost again on his top ENs...did he say his EN for AS was high or did you assume? Why on earth would you compare yourself to OW, or did he recently? You haven't just suddenly become brown-haired and brown-eyed, have you? You're his real partner...not fantasy.

Sounds to me FWH has some intense points of self-loathing going on...I don't know if you really know you cannot jump start, fix or solve him fully...that his A wasn't about you...nor is his personal recovery. You're half of the marital one, though.

What were the boundaries you set for marital recovery when you were fighting so hard to get the chance of it? Where was the end point?

LA

In a way it's both a blessing and an issue. As for blessing, I see now that we were just obliviously going in parallel w/o focusing on the maintenance of the marriage. Now, though, it seems as if the maintenance rests solely on my shoulders. I am becoming aware of subtle actions, though, which H takes on having a positive impact on our relationship...such as: when we're sitting at a bench, he'll now sit on the same side as I, whereas during A, he would "put the table between us." We do sit outside together every evening, though we don't converse per se.

Gottman writes about it in his books...puts in these exercises of asking NOW what you've assumed you've known for years...to break assumptions...and I'm wondering if that's part of what you also picked up on, hence, your perspective shift.

There's fear in seeing your partner as a stranger...stranger danger...which is why we do assume, pat down who others are...doing both, though...holding your fear and accepting this is real for you right now (not forever) and getting to know him now is that middle ground where we thrive. Also might help point you towards see more of the initial attraction issues changed again...regarding how you want to be nutured and what you want to learn.

As for me, I married a man who thought before he spoke, which was something I'd wanted to learn and do myself. My assumption was that it meant he was careful with his thoughts, words and deeds; very aware and involved in connecting to others.


Your sister and father were good listeners? I think you are an excellent listener and am struggling to do this in my communications. Did their listening skills affect your urge to control everything? Did you feel like your world would crash unless you controlled it?

Since I couldn't see my own, I surely couldn't see his ways. And in the first stage of marriage, he did talk a lot...up all night in that mad infatuation attraction stage...wish I'd known how to really listen back then! I could have stored it better.




Have you gotten past the LB's now? Did he help you identify what was making it unsafe for him to communicate? Does he communicate safely now?

All I focused on back then was getting him to do/think/say/believe/change/change/change and then I'd be happy.

I remember. I experienced that growing up with my stepmother...if only she could get me to do/think/say/believe/change/change then both of us would be happy.




I think you're right on with the nurturing is meeting ENs, understanding separateness, etc... Is it possible to sustain that on one side only w/o acting as a parent to our S? How do you bring S into giving as well as receiving gracefully? We've read HNHN and 5 Language of Love and both identified our ENs (of course, A was still in full swing during that time, though I didn't know it).

LA [/quote]

BIO,

I got a request...how about we use the typed quotation marks instead of the feature in Reply? Just for now. This new system is different than before and it takes me more time to click on the quotation mark function and then backspace and insert the text I copied from your post. It can get away from me.

And I don't mind scrolling up and down to connect your response to my post, either. If only it burned calories.



Also, I haven't found my book yet. Just a heads up. Funnily enough, I DID find another book another poster wanted a copy of...I hope it's not too late...now I need to remember who that lovely lady was here on MB.

Do I sound messy? Do I sound like a disorganized library? Well, I am. I go back and forth with stocking my library and then suddenly, packing them all into boxes to make my enormous bookshelves look nice again. Back and forth. Sorry 'bout that. Good chance my DIL has it. Have to check.

What I remember from the book is that this paralell living is normal in marriage...we adjust to the level of comfort...and distance can seemingly grow and part us.

Not real, though. We are present in our marriage...sounds to me like you became aware of that...and began to look at the level, distinguish the patterns (we all have them) and see what they are made of...that's what I hear.

If what I'm hearing is correct, the paralell living is more on automatic pilot...because you know pretty much where the tripwires are...which can seem like boundaries and they are not. These are the FOO patterns you now recognize...the whole earning love/punishment cycle we first experienced as connection and love. And we re-experience in our expectations and perceptions in marriage. Which is why we begin in that first stage of marriage, the infatuation one, with our best selves forward, focused on the delight, the connection and compatibility...not so much the tripwires.

Which is reasonable, isn't it? Our attraction is made up of all our prior experiences, like a mosaic...and we can see the larger pieces...while the smaller pieces are just as influential. Not a judgment...doesn't make us bad...that we see our partners in conflict, backing away from it, and are attracted to that. We may want to have vicarious permission to do so (adds to the tit for tat loving way we learned).

Part of the second stage of marriage, the hardest part, is now feeling fear from the backing away...as if WE are conflict...wrong or bad. Easy to overlap given what we felt as children.

And you remember the beginning with DH...the way it seemed seamless, flowing in connection...understandable to think that's you and that's him...special...so it will always be that way, as long as you're together. Shows the difference between reasonable and understandable...it's an important one.

We cease to act on our love consciously as we walk the groove into the second stage...we still act lovingly--see if you can spot where your acts of love began to be a response to your DH's actions instead of you creatively and with intent (like in the first phase) acting from love. There's another key in that to FOO, as well.

Coolest part of the hard middle stage for me was realizing we were safe enough for each other to show our non-best selves...more parts...cool because that is stepping toward intimacy...and we have shown parts, seen our parts in our partners, we don't even like, so how could they?

With this going on, can you see where focusing the maintenance might get diverted?

An A throws us into a scramble...our awareness becomes nearly obsessive; an intensity spike. Recovery also has intense awareness...we look for signs of safety again...now? How 'bout now? We forget we already were safe enough for each other to slide, take for granted...that sneaky blind trust lowering our awareness...doesn't mean you won't hurt and heal, repeatedly. Means that your acts of care cannot earn you blind trust again.

I wonder if it was the threat or reality of loss of presence of our partners during the A that brings these tiny mosaic pieces to light...like your FWH sitting next to you...a teammate, longer an opponent of your marriage.

(See that link in my sigline if you haven't already...I got it fixed)

Would you consider that our EN for conversation (I say we 'cuz it's a high one for me) underneath is about connection and intimacy? So sitting together, each in the others' presence, is connection...seeing the same things, in the same environment...a sharing of presence counts. It won't if you discount it because you're not hearing your need for conversation met. It's not all or nothing, either...sure felt that way during the A (happens in crisis the most) and that's a FOO feature come back around, too, isn't it?

About silence (like the segue?) as connection--this was a really tough, tough thing for me to get. No, my sister wasn't a good listener, though she often appeared to be...she, like my DH, mapped while they listened...meaning they would assume what was being said, focus on formulating a response, and often, get to where the opportunity to respond had passed or deviated from where they thought it would go and stay silent...doing more mapping.

They are artful at using silence as a weapon, a way to shut out, condemn, using body language a lot, as a response. And they both were killer at removal of presence which I took as punishment.

One of my poles in life is seeing this banishment as not about me...coming to hear what really went on in DH's head cleared up a lot...explained overload, engulfment and the constant condemnation/judgment he hears in his head, often assigning it to me. He heard keywords from his FOO and jumped off the conversation train, from fear.

Doesn't mean that when he became aware of his mapping and Amtraking that he didn't speak in brilliance. He had to get to that part of himself and brave it out to find out his responses weren't going to be discounted, judged and condemned. That his responses were equal to any conversation.

My father was a talker, a conversationalist, a salesman. A travelling one. His was often present in our household...so the removed presence is in my DH...though he is steadily present. I would say my father is a good listener...I'm still getting to know him again after 35 years.

I was a lousy listener...I mapped, DJ'd and interrupted a lot. I was taught that conversations evaporated if you weren't really fast; that I wasn't smart or quick if I didn't intuitively (using it obscenely here) get what was being said immediately.

Wasn't until I read the books in Plan A to get to listen and repeat, then listen and repeat with filter...to spy my assumptions rearing their habitual head...feel that fast urge rise up...gonna think I'm stupid...that I'm rude and not listening because I don't understand...that pressure. Relieving that pressure by clarifying/confirming was immense for me. And hearing how often I HEARD wrong...took the worst assumption (the one that hurts most) and running it through me...upping my reactivity...lowering my listening ability.

We did communication exercises for a couple of years, twice a week. I strongly advise these to everyone. Many of us had the message from FOO of "Listen to me!!" which didn't mean listen at all...it really meant, "Shut up and AGREE with me!" We didn't really learn how to listen. That's my take from observation and experience.

I don't know where my control freakishness began...I was adopted at five months old...might have began there...I was told by my parents that I wouldn't take a bottle unless I was held...and my first memories begin about two years old...not so far from that...so I'm guessing I had a great groundwork to begin with.



I just know my triggers...when my peace slips as control urge rises...normal stuff...fear of abandonment and intimacy. As I swing between those two...silent treatment remains a big one. Sometimes I engineer my own demise this way...because after a long silence (my perception), I get that abandonment signal, so then what I am now hearing (silence broken) isn't what I want to hear, when I wanted to hear it nor in the way I wanted to hear it.

Old stuff...that's like my witches three who circle me...my discounting was a defense against judgment/condemnation...before I knew I could do wrong not be wrong. My control urge came from love, when I believed I could control others...make them mad, disappointed, angry, break stuff, have a nervous breakdown. Came up in me to say I exist (healthy)...to determine how others existed (unhealthy). It's a big scope in between, BIO.

Notice the tiny pieces...the unnoticed steps in your swing. Talk about them...discover, understand and share. My three angels. Which is within my three circling witches...only just in different costumes.

You can store now...hear his stuff as his stuff now...and focus on knowing yours and sharing it...which is your act of intimacy, of love...rebuilds trust in yourself...even as he rebuilds your trust in him.

No, I identified my own LBs at first (during WH's A)...later, he confirmed them in the questionnaire. We were in counseling during this time...that helped a lot, too. Reinforcement, encouragement and the counselor there to point them out as I did them. Eliminating my own LBs were huge for me...and doing so in concert with my new goal of respect dovetailed together...just what I needed when I needed it most. Such a relief! For the same ways I LB'd in my marriage, so I did to myself and to others.

Began the actions before I got all of them, too. That helped.

I do believe that my DH believes he is safe to communicate. That doesn't mean he does. He's still seeing the same counselor. I don't know why I said that here...maybe I assume he's talking to him, instead. DH communicates much more than before...he shares more. And then he doesn't for awhile...can sometimes be a long while for me.

I had to commit to not parenting DH. It conflicted with my goal of respect; in that goal is the firm belief that we are equals. So parenting wasn't respectful...a big LB. Which freed me to act from my love as Harley describes instead of loving in a parental way. Tough to do with one son left at home...still, God looked out for me...had two sons away from me...a time of parenting change, anyway.

Did you do the LB questionnaire?

I don't know if I give or receive gracefully to this day. I know that when I act from my choice to love my DH, it's mine...doesn't feel like giving...and DH sees it as giving. I get loving feelings from my own actions...and as soon as my focus slips over to him...what's he giving me...meeting my ENs, I tend to tumble with those three witches back circling my head. There's a balance I haven't achieved yet...still have the old loops I fall into; I become my own prey at times.

I know that DH chooses...and it's my responsibility to really see, like you do, what he chooses differently--to NOT discount, judge or condemn. To know. I blocked my own love bank for so long in my life, I gotta know when I'm in my way.

Receiving can be difficult...usually, if I'm receiving without awareness, then I won't see him giving. I gotta know he gives...chooses to be present, look into my eyes when we speak, listens, repeats...and for me to hear his hands, for he speaks in touch, too...and to not assume I know what he means...he asks in touch and he answers, too.

I believe he wants to be connected to me. I believe he chooses to love me. I believe we are equals, partners, and made from love. I don't believe I drive him away (favorite phrase from FOO) or draw him near. I believe the same of myself.

Do the questionnaires again...because now is not then...and what ENs you both may have rated highly may have fallen...we rate most what we least believe we receive...shouts the loudest...during the A, mine was O&H...and that's linked into Conversation...communication. It's what he cut off, along with presence, touch, affection...all the rest. I can better now wait to hear and know...though maybe, now, too much. I'm working on it.

I know the power of O&H in me...remains in my code. So when I suggest words for you to use for your FWH, remember my filter, 'k? "I want to know you now." Can be powerful...assurance of love, interest and non-judgment. Can also be intrusive, engulfing, invitation to judgment. Won't know until you ask. "I find you fascinating"...maybe?

LOL

Do your own. Do them anyway. Find your LBs...go inside and you'll know where you bruise yourself...leaves traces you can follow.

LA

I'm really using up board space...here's my reply to your second post.

You were feeling inadequate during his A due to medical issues...comes from fear...along with your fear of what could be seriously affecting your lifespan...which is abandonment, too, in my book...and abandonment is within inadequacy, us making others...even as there is solace, a soothing, in it as well. Find both sides within what you experienced back then.

Those fears remain, lower levels...addressing them is part of healing. Each justification behind them is part of fantasy, IMO. Seeing them for what they were (and BS have their own hidden justifications) and are will free you from them now.

Fear of not knowing, his not acting O&H with you is a big fear now. You didn't see it coming (the A) and now you know what to look for, you realize, you still might not see another. Accept your fear...because we are all in this way vulnerable. Nothing you could have done to prevent (really)...core level, he chose. Not you doing.

And you will thrive, no matter what, anyway.

Tough part is suriving what feels as if it kills us.

Your full half...being safe to share with and sharing your stuff is your responsibility. His choices to share O&H remain his...focus on yours. Find the DJs in your thinking that lifts up your fear of not knowing...like the one that he still thinks you should meet his needs without saying anything.

You can't know what you are not told. You know what you were told. May no longer apply. You operate from your own O&H and ask...and you focus on sharing your appreciation of him meeting your ENs...your admiration of his choices...you celebrate. Mind your DJs...they are in our heads from FOO...often, they are the very voice of FOO, not our partners...solely up to YOU to not confuse them.

Your parents also expected you to handle conflict without seeing it.

They essentially hid it from you.

You got your conflict skills from your siblings; resolutions from your parents intervening in that conflict. In school, friendships, other relationships (like work).

They had a great marriage...had their priorities straight...doesn't change your experience of not understanding by witnessing how major and minor conflicts connect and disconnect, does it?

Look elsewhere. See how you really see conflict and saw it--know your symbols and assumptions (we assume we will re-experience it, time after time, in the same way, usually same conclusion). See your own skills, what your tools are.

Are your priorities in line in the same vein? Do you guys take walks together (side by side and forward motion are important)...do you make playing together a high priority?

(Thank you for sharing about your experience of your parents' marriage...I'm asking myself these same questions...remembering our rebuilding time in recovery when we did make these a high priority and have in the last year put others ahead of them.)

I'm sure pre-A your DH experienced a lot of this with you...he knows. Can you respect he knows?

Great identification in expecting your DH to be your Dad (expected same responses) and your marriage like the one you witnessed (didn't experience, though). Expected responses kick our own marital butt, IMO. Those are automatic, too. Seeing them for what they are is like a homecoming...ohyeahhuh moments. Another act of respect, ferreting them out, separating them from reality.

Your FWH's CA kicks your fear into high gear...do you also rely on him to define conflict, inform you of one? Do you fear not being aware of conflict?

Is it okay for you to know what he thinks and not buy into it, not choose to believe the same for yourself? Can you trace your fear directly to this buying into this belief?

I don't believe in loving detachment from fear...I believe in doing it from respect...my fears climb higher when I'm taking DH's stuff as my own...not separating and respect they are different. I bought into everything before...now I don't. No disrespect in understanding what he believes is not what I believe right now.

About AS...I think there's another layer underneath...and I could be wrong...switching from tall brunettes (oh, you LUCKY duck) to blondes...does he actively fantasize daily? Usually such a switch isn't about real other people...it's a switch in perspective internally. (Going out on a limb here) Right along the lines of what you're attracted to are disowned parts of yourself and what we lack resolution for in our past. Someone new to complete him...means different voids than before in him.

Not really about them, underneath. Manifests all sorts of different ways. My DH had an A with a woman the physical opposite of myself...and very much the same, underneath.

From the book, I understood we are symbols to each other...which is why our attraction can change, switch and switch back...not about our physicality...about what that physicality represents. Initial attraction, yes...second stage, no, and third stage, further no...what we represent to one another...even as we bare all of ourselves, even our parts we swore we'd gotten rid of.

Since I'm already out on that limb, I'll go further...the switch of attraction to your seeming opposite may even go further...so that he hurt to the core a blonde, not his real partner, the beautiful, tall brunette. Just a thought.

Wishfulness plays a big part of our lives...as a signal...not desire. Easily confused, though.

Do you continue to reassure when he self-negates, or is that in the past?

You can choose to see him as without effort to recover. Is that an objective perception, no discounting, wishfulness, refuting on your part what actually is versus what you want?

I ask because of those three witches of mine...I cut so much out of my reality by wanting what I wanted, when I wanted it, in the way I wanted it. I ask...doesn't mean you do, 'k?

I don't know about taking charge of recovery...might be my control freakishness rearing or my own lack of requirements...I was focused on finding out if my WH would choose the marriage at all...I did not set the bar high, did not require he take charge of recovery (again, my sneaky control), and I see now, in hindsight, my disrespect that he would screw it up. My stuff. Not his.

Thanks for sharing...I don't think I got to that before.

I thought all of this tied into the book! LOL What I read, I consume...becomes part of my life...ties into everything. Maybe I need to not consume so much?

LA

Thank you for suggesting we use regular quotes instead of the board feature; I was just struggling to learn how to do those and wasn't very comfortable with it.

"I was a lousy listener...I mapped, DJ'd and interrupted a lot. I was taught that conversations evaporated if you weren't really fast; that I wasn't smart or quick if I didn't intuitively (using it obscenely here) get what was being said immediately.
I don't know if I give or receive gracefully to this day."

I understand about this completely. We had lively banter in our family between siblings and would have heated (yet respectful) discussions about a wide range of topics; it was exhilarating. If I try to engage H in one of those "lively" debates, he withdraws (maybe because it feels like an attack to him?).

"I know that when I act from my choice to love my DH, it's mine...doesn't feel like giving...and DH sees it as giving. I get loving feelings from my own actions...and as soon as my focus slips over to him...what's he giving me...meeting my ENs, I tend to tumble with those three witches back circling my head. There's a balance I haven't achieved yet...still have the old loops I fall into; I become my own prey at times."

I love the analogy of the three witches. It helps clarify about what we invite upon ourselves.

"I know that DH chooses...and it's my responsibility to really see, like you do, what he chooses differently--to NOT discount, judge or condemn. To know. I blocked my own love bank for so long in my life, I gotta know when I'm in my way.

Receiving can be difficult...usually, if I'm receiving without awareness, then I won't see him giving. I gotta know he gives...chooses to be present, look into my eyes when we speak, listens, repeats...and for me to hear his hands, for he speaks in touch, too...and to not assume I know what he means...he asks in touch and he answers, too.

I believe he wants to be connected to me. I believe he chooses to love me. I believe we are equals, partners, and made from love. I don't believe I drive him away (favorite phrase from FOO) or draw him near. I believe the same of myself.
I don't believe in loving detachment from fear...I believe in doing it from respect...my fears climb higher when I'm taking DH's stuff as my own...not separating and respect they are different. I bought into everything before...now I don't. No disrespect in understanding what he believes is not what I believe right now."

This is very well put. I am trying to see from this perspective as well. I just finished another book along this line, "How to Improve your Marriage w/o Talking about it." Not sure if it's the exact title, but the gist of it is that women want to talk about their relationships when they're feeling anxious about them, men react to a woman's request for "talk" as a confirmation of their (men's) failures.

As far as how I react to him negating: I finally told him point blank that he's not a failure and that I don't want him to model that thought process to our children. He's much better about it now. I try to make sure he knows that I appreciate and admire his gifts (he's very talented with his hands at woodworking).

I think asking him to take charge of the recovery was more of a request for him to participate in recovery. Between d-days 1 and 2, I took charge and he was like a sullen teenager being forced to do anything...it was awful! I figured if he led the charge, then I would be flexible enough to follow his choice of recovery methods (he hates MB and thinks it's a man-hating site). The trouble with that is, he chose the "no method-method." More of a "let's just rumble along and try to forget" ...sound familiar?

My H's CA does kick in my fear when I let it. My fear now though is I've learned to detach so well that I find too much peace in it and am tempted to detach completely sometimes...that's what I'm fighting against at this stage. I really don't feel that much fear of losing him any more; I feel fear at being stuck in a cycle of pain with him.

You sound like me as far as your library. I've got more books than I know what to do with (all my kids are avid readers, too); sometimes it's hard to remember what thought came from what book.

Hi there, BIO...

"I understand about this completely. We had lively banter in our family between siblings and would have heated (yet respectful) discussions about a wide range of topics; it was exhilarating. If I try to engage H in one of those "lively" debates, he withdraws (maybe because it feels like an attack to him?)."

(I like typing the quotation marks, too!)

Could you elaborate on what you mean for me? Lively banter...and debates; heated yet respectful. I'm not sure I have a frame of reference myself.

You'd have to ask him what it feels like...took me to middle age to understand we can disagree and not be attacking one another. It looks tougher than it is...took permissions to do so, not so much talent for me.

"As far as how I react to him negating: I finally told him point blank that he's not a failure and that I don't want him to model that thought process to our children. He's much better about it now. I try to make sure he knows that I appreciate and admire his gifts (he's very talented with his hands at woodworking)."

Interesting...see, it wasn't until DH said, "I hurt when you put yourself down. I'm sick of hurting. Stop it." Breaking that cycle, of me defining him (hearing attacks when I defined him not in the way he wanted; feeling love when I got it right) and him defining me...this was the rule of protection, not being the cause of unhappiness tennant instead.

Part of my own self-negation was sharing what I was hearing in my head directly...right out my mouth. Wasn't my beliefs...was my constant audio track...so I wondered if you'd as your FWH if this is a part of it...because it's up to us to address that voice...and if we keep looking to our partner to address it (challenge it from the outside) then we remain vulnerable to others who are willing, not just our partners.

"I think asking him to take charge of the recovery was more of a request for him to participate in recovery. Between d-days 1 and 2, I took charge and he was like a sullen teenager being forced to do anything...it was awful!"

So you're saying you lied? Misrepresented? Then you didn't like the outcome...the response. Sounds just like me. Of course, I experienced DH this way because it was also during withdrawal...which was awful.

"I figured if he led the charge, then I would be flexible enough to follow his choice of recovery methods (he hates MB and thinks it's a man-hating site). The trouble with that is, he chose the "no method-method." More of a "let's just rumble along and try to forget" ...sound familiar?"

Sure does...understandable to me, though...since those of us who cheat are the worst at grieving and healing...and excel at distracting. And we don't know it.

A wishing life is not living life. I'm glad I learned the difference.

"My H's CA does kick in my fear when I let it. My fear now though is I've learned to detach so well that I find too much peace in it and am tempted to detach completely sometimes...that's what I'm fighting against at this stage. I really don't feel that much fear of losing him any more; I feel fear at being stuck in a cycle of pain with him."

You know everything comes to pass, correct? There isn't such thing as a permanent cycle...though when we're in one like pain, sure can feel that way. You are half of every dance, every cycle and loop. I don't believe we CAN permanently detach from one another...even one single memory reawakens that attachment for the duration of the memory. Because our brains cannot tell time, nor the difference between fantasy and reality.

I confused fearing myself with fearing my terrible previous choices...just like doing something wrong does not make me a wrong person. Both you and I have inherent, constant choice in each moment...so we can change our experience as we change our choices.

Every human has the same inherent and constant choice...even your FWH and my DH.

Permanently detaching means you would make the conscious choice to no longer choose to love your FWH, nor act from your love.

Believing it is your choice, not something that sneaks up on you (fear) will allay your fear...it's coming from an unreasonable belief.

If, however, you believe in acting from your feelings, not your beliefs, and you fear feeling no attachment because then you'll react to it...that's a reasonable fear, isn't it?

Did we ever fear not loving our parents, I wonder? That our love for them, our attachment to them, would end?

LA

I did let go after D-Day 2 and let him have at it (for a few months). 5 months after d-day 2, he made a comment about thinking that he was bi-polar...I said that maybe he was in MLC. He did some research and concurred that he was MLC and got really depressed (and negative) about it and went on ADs. He said he needed to fix himself before we could work on our relationship. He's no longer in depression, nor is he on ADs...our move seemed to help tremendously. I wasn't intending to lie to him about him taking charge of recovery, I'm just not willing to wait indefinately for him to step up to the plate.

I'm preparing myself for (what most in MB would say) the probable outcome of not addressing or sorting out the A being that he slips again with another OW. I definitely screwed up in dealing with his A; I was a wimp, didn't expose and I became a doormat (I feel disgust with how I acted during that time).

BIO,

Self-disgust...I wasn't going for that at all. I was delving into our own patterns--ones I see in you that I have in me--and you may not have them.

My provocative statement about lying is to probe how we lie when we say, "Okay, up to you" and then quietly retain control (not really).

My DH feared most my traps...I used to do this...set him up. Again, my own control issues. Doesn't mean every time he felt set up that he was...still had my part, he had his.

I had to go back and find each time I really did set him up...and where I learned to do this...good ol' FOO...this really helped me to see where he set me up, also.

Helped to unravel the falsity in our communication, within my own intent...made a big difference when DH also saw his subtle ways of attempting to control, as well.

Didn't get there until I cleared up my stuff, my way.

What's your payoff in saying you were a wimp, a doormat? If you believe these harsh definitions, will you not believe other ones of your FWH?

LA

I feel disgust at the behavior I displayed as a reaction to his A; by acknowledging the reactive behavior, I hope I can stop and choose my action should he slip again rather than react out of fear.

As far as my pay off for saying I was a wimp and a doormat...I have to be honest with myself and my actions. I pretty much jumped when he said jump, believed whatever he told me, didn't expose...all this was out of fear of losing him. Looking back, it was almost as if I rewarded him for screwing another woman. Maybe this was another parenting thing...I wanted to make him feel better and protect him from his guilt.

What kind of traps did you set for your H? When did you realize that you were setting traps?

Oh, gosh...saw the big traps about two months into MC...and then several smaller to tiny ones over the year following the big ones...

Ways I set up DH...oh, my...you don't ask much, do ya, BIO?



Okay...say DH and I are taking a walk, talking, as we do, and he makes a joke/funny observation and I statement my appreciation/admiration (and laugh)...and shortly thereafter, I do the same...make a joke/funny observation...and he chuckles...and says nothing. I would say, "So this is where you say <repeat what I said earlier>" and my DH, PA as he is, would say, "So you want me to say <blank>, eh?"

"That would feel romantic to me."

"Oh. Okay."

Notice...he wouldn't say it...he'd been set up...invalidated, in his mind, my original appreciation/admiration...made it all fake...and so he refused to participate, even if he did appreciate/admire...wouldn't do it.

Was I faking? Not a bit. Does my acts of appreciation/admiration come from me? Absolutely--he can't arm wrestle them out of me, either. My choice.

Sometimes, when I do them, am I reminded how much I like them and would like them in return, OH YES! Hits me sometimes out of the blue...and I CRAVE it.

So we still go round and round...for my DH, it's a LB for him to admire/appreciate...MC calls it a drop of rain in the desert...because if he does, then he invalidates all the acts I made to meet his EN.

Not in my control...and yes, in the old days, lots of set ups for him to RESPOND (verbally, physically, emotionally) in the same way I had...

Set ups to nag him into agreeing to do something when we both know and aren't saying he isn't really agreeing (before we learned POJA) because I loved being right more than married. See, you didn't do it. You broke your promise. I KNEW you would!!!

Triumphantly draining our marital love bank and mine...drought days. Yuck.

Gosh, and my DH's experience was consistently one that he wasn't enough, couldn't do enough, so why do at all?

Hope this helps...

LA

"Okay...say DH and I are taking a walk, talking, as we do, and he makes a joke/funny observation and I statement my appreciation/admiration (and laugh)...and shortly thereafter, I do the same...make a joke/funny observation...and he chuckles...and says nothing. I would say, "So this is where you say <repeat what I said earlier>" and my DH, PA as he is, would say, "So you want me to say <blank>, eh?"

"That would feel romantic to me."

"Oh. Okay."

Notice...he wouldn't say it...he'd been set up...invalidated, in his mind, my original appreciation/admiration...made it all fake...and so he refused to participate, even if he did appreciate/admire...wouldn't do it."

Are you saying that you would make a positive statement about him with the intent of having one reflected back to you? Or did you make statements and realize that it should be natural for him to make a similar observation? Is it like saying "I love you" and (naturally) expecting "I love you too" to be the normal reply? Isn't it normal to expect feedback when you're in a conversation? How do you get to intimate conversation if the other party won't "play?"

I understand your H about not responding when you told him, "So this is where you say <repeat what I said earlier>" He may have felt like he was being baited with a gift which turned out to have a cost. My H will sometimes tell me (jokingly) to "Tell me that you love me, Baby" and "Say >some silly word>" I feel like he's treating me like a child when he does this...it's not very appealing.

Was your H open to MB from the beginning? If not, what did it take to peak his interest?

You ask great questions.

The set up for me comes in, as you showed so well, at the point I "educate" him and ask him to say what I said to him...telling him he missed his opportunity.

I forgot to mention my DH has this thing against saying compliments...if he does, he believes it means others are better than him, that he's less than them.

We know educating is an LB...and yes, I know this and set him up, anyway. It's like a shame attack.

Which means I'm not being O&H...I have this conflict in my boundaries...I don't "repeat" when I ask for something. I respect he knows. So I don't say, "I would sure like to hear something positive from you right now"...and instead, I sidewind into it...which is the manipulative part. Then I compound it.

DH speaks intimately...of his stuff...he shares. Doesn't make it a conversation...my priority is to listen and repeat...to acknowledge. Mine is to do the same.

He does state his appreciation pretty often when I do this.

DH chooses not to read on MB or post. I don't know, at nearly four years, what would encourage him to do so.

I know I have to catch myself when I cross that boundary (and all the other ways I used to set him up are a blank to me right now...I promise to share when they come back to my mind)...own and amend.

I make my choices as well.

LA

"I forgot to mention my DH has this thing against saying compliments...if he does, he believes it means others are better than him, that he's less than them."

It's sad that he feels this way. If he could only realize the gift he could give others in pointing out their positives, he could reap the benefit of making someone else's day be brighter...with a side effect of feeling better about himself.


"DH speaks intimately...of his stuff...he shares. Doesn't make it a conversation...my priority is to listen and repeat...to acknowledge. Mine is to do the same."

Thank you for this statement, I'm going to try to change my way of communicating with others. I do have a problem with listening and attending...I think this will help.

BIO,

To tie back to the book...my DH's POV is much like what I perceived my older sister's was when growing up.

I spent a lot of doing the "Hey, are you proud of me now? How 'bout now?" stuff. Now I can see it was me trying to get others to meet my EN for admiration, which is tied into attention for me...

She saw it (she told me) as me trying to out-do her, to outshine her...so she kept withdrawing from me.

Perceptions. They sure can kick our tushie.

Makes sense that though I had no idea DH believed this when we met and married, I could sense it, filling my need to work it out...

As for in my marriage, my DH has stated his appreciation and admiration and I just realized, it was for two big things I did that he didn't expect. For both reactions, he felt sure I would degrade and chastize him...and I didn't.

I found out he often looked for that (expects it from his bosses at work, his kids, etc.) and what really sticks out to him is when they don't.

Reminds me that his stuff really is his...and for me to mind my own (stopped living reactively) really has changed our marriage. Doesn't mean I changed anything about him, though.

LA