TTM,

Your STBXW is showing classic PA (passive-aggressive) behavior. IMHO you cannot be a reed in the wind with a PA partner as the wind will get stronger. You need to be a rock in the face of PA behavior. Don't get sucked into her manipulations. Consider her motives in all communications.

Look at it this way, she said she was unsure about the dinner plans. She's unsure about your marriage. Why would you want to engage with someone who's unsure. To me unsure is the same as a solid no. Beware the PA-behavior!

Now I could ride all over you about your interest in another woman, her spending the weekend with you in some fashion, and mingling this woman with your DD. I'll be kind and say that I don't approve of any of it, not that it will deter you any from learning some hard lessons on your own.

When people divorce, they often feel a void in their life left by the absence of someone you thought would be your partner and confidant for life. Most people choose to fill this void by starting a relationship with someone else almost immediately. The void hurts and you feel compelled to fill it. But let's step back here a moment. Is the void not in yourself? What would happen if you filled that void without using someone else to fill it? What if you filled it with yourself? What if you became a whole person on your own? Would your value increase? Would you be more differentiated?

How long does it take to fill the void? For me, the process took more than a year. I know now that I can make it on my own for the rest of my life. I would probably lead a better life in some regards. I feel the need to give, instead of giving to a woman, I give to my family, friends, and community. I'm not in the thrall of women anymore. I am a stronger person because of these and my value has gone up.

Consider these things carefully.

Have a great holiday weekend.

TTM,

It's good to hear that you are still maintaining your course. I agree with a previous poster that you need to be a rock in the face of her passive-aggressive behavior.

You raised a question about why she seems to come back around when you find a new girlfriend. Baasically, you are displaying high social value when you end up attracting another woman. It makes your STBXW wonder if she "missed something" and is going to somehow miss out on a better life with you. This is classic relationship behavior (for both men and women) and fits well with her passive-aggressive behavior, her apparent insecurity, and the normal/natural self-doubt that accompanies the end of a major life relationship. Don't let it sway you. One more comment about this whole issue (dating) at this point: IMHO, you need to resist the urge to launch new relationships until after things are resolved in front of the judge...

Also, you need to be careful about your long/deep phone conversations with her. Assume they are being recorded and that anything you say will be twisted in the worst possible manner by her attorney. You may want to actually record the calls yourself. Radio Shack has a very cool little gadget that makes this quite easy (their model number is 43-1237 and its called a "mini recorder control" -- you can find it quite easily by going to their website and searching for the words: record telephone).

Remember that the court will not be involved in your emotional/relational issues. Instead, it (the court) will simply be there to help resolve the "dissolution" of your "joint business" with your STBXW.

Finally, you may benefit from reading "The List" at dadsdivorce dot com. Even if you don't agree with everything on that list, it will at least give you some helpful food for thought.

Good Luck -- Keep the Faith,
LR

Thanks LA - I try and keep myself honest as possible, but failing that, I figure the folks around here will be happy to step in and do it for me. HAHA!

Thanks everyone for the advice,

My son and my family had a party with him, and when I dropped him off to STBXW, we had a short cake party together. He opened his presents from her, and I helped him put together a lego kit he got.
I was a bit uncomfortable, we did say much to each other, I didn't know what to say, I guess she didn't either.

She sent me an e-mail afterwards apologizing for not communicating about the birthday plans well, and said for now, let's not plan any 'family' activities. Although she clearly left the door open for the future, and even said she want time for all of us to 'heal'.

I'm getting that she's lonely, I can see it, and feel it from her, she hasn't found a BF yet, and I think she's still struggling with the end of our M. As am I, although for me it's been getting easier, I get the sense for her it's getting worse.

As for the dating, I appreciate everyone's expressed concerns. I'm not getting involved with anyone, and I've been clear with them that I am not available right now. That being said it's nice to have a 'buddy' to do some stuff with occasionally. I do recognize the value in spending time alone, and figuring out how to fill my own tank, and I'm working on that diligently.

At this point, there's a part of me that wants to go and talk with W and make one more attempt to get her to join me in counseling or at the very least reading some books. There's another part that says I've done all I can do, and its time just to finish this process, and move on with my life. I'd be lying if I said I don't still have feelings for her, and that I feel things from her as well. Maybe that never changes.

-TTM

This is a bit strange. STBXW sent me an e-mail saying that from this point forward she would prefer I call her if there's something we need to discuss.

On Friday (4th) DS was complaining that his ears hurt, took him to the doc, and was diagnosed with swimmers ear. Got some drops to put into them ect. On Saturday, he was still acting kind of out of it. But we did the birthday thing, and he laid down and watched a movie. I left him with the STBXW.

The next day, was his first day of summer school, and I wanted to know how it went, and if he was feeling better, so I called EW and left a msg on her cell last night around 5:30. I still haven't heard anything back from her!

I don't know what to make of this. To compound things, she told a friend on Sunday am, that she is still struggling with the end of our marriage, and she pulled her profile from match.com.

It bothers me that she wouldn't call and let me know how our son is doing. I'm not sure why she would choose not to call me back. I'm now getting genuinely concerned, for him and now for her as well.

I believe if there was anything serious, she would call, but still.

Any thoughts?

- TTM

I'm sure she would prefer that you call her. It's pretty clear that she doesn't want you wandering too far off the reservation. Arm's length; not too close, not too distant. Interesting how she's trying to dictate your actions - tell you how to make and maintain contact. As I understand it, Plan B isn't about what she wants. It's about what you need to survive, and succumbing to her push-pull behavior doesn't provide for that.

I appreciate that you're worried about your son. Have an intermediary contact the STBXW for a status. Failing that, call his summer school and see how he's doing. You're his dad. You have a right to talk to them.

You keep worrying about what she's doing, and struggling with. Why? Just be honest. Do you still have feelings for her? Do you want to try to work it out some more? It sounds to me like you're still waffling on how you want to go forward.

It's okay if you are. Understandable, even. I think a lot of people would want to reconcile their marriages given the opportunity and assuming both people would be willing to work on their failures in an honest manner.

What made me gave up on hoping for an R with my XW wasn't her refusals to try. It was the realization that she never really saw anything wrong with herself, and that I was the only one who ruined things. She'd never change. It was always only a question of whether or not she'd take me back and tolerate me. I decided that I didn't want than anymore and any cost.

What do you want? Do you know?

SB,

I absolutely appreciate what you're saying to me. Thank you.

I choose to see it like this: Her behavior is hers, and I don't see anything I'm going to do or not do really changing it at all. So for me the question is do I have the boundary skills to stand firm while she does whatever she is going to do? Well, all I can say is I'm working on them and getting lots of practice right now.

My counselor Al, said it like this: When she tries to pull you move and let her fall on her [censored], when she pushes, sidestep and watch as she goes on by.

I did call her, and will call her from now on. Unless I feel it gets to be more than I can handle, then I'll go back to e-mail.

You asked me a question, do I still have feelings for her? The answer is a resounding yes. I do. In spite of everything she's done, I still have a great deal of feelings for her, and I believe she does for me as well.

I want my family back and be with someone willing to work to create a great relationship. Right now she's not, still spends her time blaming me for the things that went wrong. So it's not really possible, right now.

Everything changes in time, and I don't see this being any different. The fact that she's going back and forth with wanting contact from me tells me she's still struggling herself too.

Does this mean I want to stop the D? Nope, I don't. I think it's the only way we can be happy. As strange as that may sound.

I can echo your feelings about whether she'd 'take me back' and 'tolerate' me, that has been our MO for a while now too.

Let's just see how this all plays out... this is far from over.

I haven't seen her do anything nasty or spiteful in quite a few weeks now, even made some moves closer to me.

- TTM

I'll weigh-in gently. Keep your guard up and focus on yourself. There is no accounting for the wiles of a wily woman. She may be hurt, confused and retiring, or deceitful, manipulative, and working on a master plan for bringing your world down. Unless you can know her mind, consider that it be be either or something of both. As they say in the boxing ring before the match, "Protect yourself at all times."

Thanks Dutch. I'm listening.

Guard is up, but I'll be the first to admit, my D is unlike almost any I've heard about from the people I've talked to. She keeps working to find ways to be angry with me, and I've given her a few, but not many, and it's making it even harder for her to move forward with this process. I can tell she's questioning herself big time right now.

In a way I feel like I'm watching this play out from 'outside' and it's kind of cool. Learning some good things along the way too.

I'm safe, and fairly well protected, so I have little to fear. Most importantly, she's terrified of more debt, and doesn't have cash to pay her attorney for a fight. So I've got quite a bit of leverage right now.

I'm trying to be fair, reasonable, and take care of myself too. Hard line to walk, but I'm doing ok.

Thanks to all for the continued support,

- TTM

P.S. I decided to leave the dating alone for a while more, I'm going to work on getting more comfortable being alone.

TTM,

I am impartial to what you want to do with your marriage. I am solely concerned about your well-being and safety. There are times when us men have to stick together and support each other.

Now for some observations. I feel that your STBXW's working to find ways to be angry with you are her efforts to validate her reasons/feelings concerning separation. This is what I describe as an essentially female mechanism called BR (backward-rationalization). It operates thusly: a woman emotes and then after the fact develops reasons why she did emote. Since emoting is essentially an irrational process, there can be a diametrically opposed need to counter the irrational with the rational. One of your goals at this point should be not to anger her by reinforcing her concept of your flaws. To demonstrate that you are an improved version, you cannot fall into the old patterns that she defines as misbehavior on your part.

You are spending some time in an analytic mode which is good. Analyze first, compose a response, and then respond.

Leverage for what? Leverage implies something to be used against the STBXW or to coerce her. You would not want to go that route unless things get much worse and the situation devolves into a hostile battle. Let's rephrase "leverage" to instead say "I"m operating out of a position of strength."

You are learning many lessons and many methodologies that will assist you to have a better life. It's one fortunate thing to happen out of the unfortunate circumstances. Keep walking that line. Become a better person and always try to do what is right.

Once you're comfortable being alone, you'll be a better catch as you'll have far less pressure to hook up with someone to fill your emotional void.

Overall, I like what you're doing.

If you're ever in the St. Louis area, the first drink is on me.

I'm going to make a trek to St Louis soon, I'll take you up on the drink. I heard you've got good BBQ out there.

I totally get your 'backwards' rationalization theory. I've seen that play out many times.

Not re-enforcing her 'concept' of my flaws, I like that. Not sure how well I can do it, because it does seem like she works to find fault with anything I do, but I'll keep trying.

I see this as very different from working to 'avoid' upsetting her. How do you see it? In the past I've gone great lengths to make sure I didn't 'upset' her, even sacrificing myself in the process.

So far I've had a few AO. But, overall I have been calm cool and rational through an ocean of raw emotions. All in all I think I'm doing pretty good. Ideally I'd be in total control of my emotions, but I'll be honest, it's been tough.

Let's just see what happens...

-TTM

TTM,

When my perception is that you're thinking if she wants to reconcile, my heart kicks up speed.

Old dance, old dance...begins with TTM's pondering, rummaging through, contemplating...not her doing anything.

I remember you had actions for reconciliation at one point...where she goes to MC (because she was unwilling to work on her stuff) for a set period of time. When you know what you require to begin CONTEMPLATING reconciliation, then you will not reach to do so before she's been in MC/IC for three months. Consistently.

Hold yourself to a healthy boundary and you will free yourself from the old dance. You know it with your eyes closed...which is how it was danced to begin with.

Eyes wide open and rely on actions, not words, not offers, not mix signals...only signals you're responsible for are your own...to you, about you, from you, 'k?

Not conflict avoidance...feels like its twin you begin it. When you know what you require, you can let the confrontation go...because you are holding yourself to not musing about what you don't know...and until three months of going to counseling have passed only then do you work on what is, reality...not fantasy wonderings. They bite you, lure you back...are from the old dance, routine of interaction.

You're new, TTM. I'm reminding.

LA

I'm sure you know of things that will set her off every time. Eliminate those from your behavior if it doesn't impact you in a negative fashion to do so. Think about what she's trying to be mad at you about know and avoid those areas if possible. There are various resentments she's probably bringing to the surface and she will have to work through them on her own. The best that you can do is to acknowledge her pain for the resentment. I could go into a long dialogue concerning resentments, but suffice it to say that a resentment at its core is a failure to communicate a hurt or anger when it occurs. It is a symptom of a poor communication skill-set.

You have to do what's right for you. Sacrificing yourself to avoid upsetting her is not a good communication tactic. I walked on eggshells that last 6-months of my marriage and I can't describe for you what that cost me. There is no reason to walk on eggshells, it's an avoidance of reality technique. Let's see if I can nail this, if you're not consciously trying to upset her via your actions and your actions do not follow patterns of the past that are known to upset her, then you should not be concerned of the consequences of your actions upsetting her. Is that clear as mud?

For the AO, it's important to avoid letting her manipulate you into a situation that causes a AO. I'm sure that she knows exactly how to push your buttons and vice versa. AO's on your part indicate her control of the situation. If you want to totally confound her, validate her feeling and say that you just don't see it the same way. Your validation and calmness will send a message. Everyone's version of reality is different and its compounded by gender differences. You will often not see something the same way as she does. There is not necessarily a right or wrong position, there are just different positions and each may work for its corresponding owner.

I'm not sure anyone can have total control of their emotions, but if we can express our emotions freely in a positive fashion then only a certain level of control is required. Channel your anger into something constructive.

LA,

Spot on my friend, she's done nothing to indicate that she wants to reconcile. Did you hear me saying that I did? I'm attempting to walk a very thin line between loving someone where they are at, and going through a divorce from them.

I will not go back, or return to a relationship with her in any way, until, if/when she decides she wants to do the work. Hers and our together.

In the mean time, I see no reason to be hostile. I'm working very hard to walk that line. It's hard because my emotions and feelings for her get in the way a lot. But I'm doing ok.

I'll keep a close eye on 'actions' mine and hers, and work from those. Thanks.

I am new ( thanks for the reminder), and getting better all the time, I keep learning and growing, and that's something that I will not stop doing.

- TTM

Dutch,

I'll work on eliminating anything that might set her off, to the best of my ability, as long as it doesn't compromise myself.

I like what you say about the resentments, and I'm sure you're right her list is long. Problem is, she doesn't tell me when something has hurt her, or specifically what her resentments are.

I do understand walking on eggshells, I did that all last year, and I understand the costs. It's torn me up something awful.

Clear as mud, and oddly enough, I do understand it. Makes perfect sense. Probably only because I've lived it wrong for so long now.

I do know how to validate, and I'll keep working to do that. The part I've not done up to this point is added my own, I don't see it the same way. I totally get that we all have a different 'version' of reality, understand that well.

On a different note, I'm just struggling with why she wants this divorce. She keeps saying that we're not 'right' for each other, that we don't fit somehow, yet from where I sit I've experienced more passion with that woman than anyone else. Was that fake for her? Did she never feel that way, or is she in denial of that now because of this decision to divorce. Not trying to figure her out, just trying to come to terms with things for myself.

Thank you so much for the continued support,

- TTM

My XW had 25-years of resentments. We tried working through them one at a time and it would have taken forever. Thankfully, she threw in the towel on that after announcing that she had enumerated the majority of them into a multi-page document that was only privy to her therapist. It was a pretty perverse setup.

This is in contrast to me who doesn't hold grudges. This is not to say that I was resentful about something, in fact, any of my resentment was from the frustration of making my resentment absolutely clear to her and she taking no action ever to resolve it. Water under the bridge but a useful example. I'll give you one guess what the subject of my resentment was.

Again, due to the different versions of our reality, it may never be possible to know the why of the divorce. My XW could/would never tell me why. I had one opportunity to ask her and she said she didn't know why. I guess that she hadn't backward-rationalized then. Now, I don't really care what her reasons were and acknowledge my role.

You've experienced more passion with her, but was she experiencing the same passion at the same time or was it all for your benefit, i.e. her attempt to meet your need? I conclude in my own instance that the XW was a great actress and could act very passionately for my benefit without feeling the passion herself. Consider that this may also be your case. It could also be, as my XW was absolutely flamboyant about, that your XW has rewritten her personal history concerning you. Think of it as an elaborately constructed alternative reality where you can recognize just a fraction of what's there with you recollection of events being totally different than what she is projecting into her alternate reality.

I accept blame. I have forgiven myself. I am working to forgiveness of the XW. It takes time. A divorce is like a death and in fact is the death of a relationship. We grieve for things that die. There are 6-7 stages of grief and we have to work through all of them no matter what sequence they come in and what amplitude each stage brings. It takes time to process through all of this. It will take time for you to develop an answer that you can accept as your best attempt at understanding the why of the divorce.

Let me suggest that you instead learn to enjoy your life. Stop everyday to notice the little things. all of the important processing will occur in the background. Live a lot while it is processing and someday the processing will be done. In the meantime, you will had had a lot of fun and perhaps have added some value to your world.

Moving to a new thread... I think it's time for a new perspective.