I must have missed this. When did anyone suggest this?
Mostly just JL, pages 70 & 71


Your M is not doing their job.
I already told her NOT to pass on any toxic information like this again! She actually said it to me as being laughable; but, of course I HAD to verify for myself that they didn't!

JL never suggested anything of the kind.

Abandoned, it is not your fault. If anything, what could be deemed as sort of "your fault" is simply an irritating and destructive flaw that you have.

That particular flaw (we all have them) was a sort of "blindness" to this woman's character, you know, the woman you married and had kids with.

She cheated on you in the first year of marriage.

That is where you could have said to yourself-- :WHOA HERE!:

"I think I made a mistake, a BIG BUSTER mistake! I did not marry the right person! Her heart is dark and dirty! I need to think about this before making precious children with this woman.....!"

Then, when she cheated the second time, you could have stopped also and demanded a year of counseling, opening up to the former church and the new church about her and held her accountable. You could have revealed it all to close friends, family members, etc.

Then, later, even if you did have the kids with her (being blind to her true character and ignoring all the signs) you should not have let her walk all over you and the kids in her selfish ways. This you should have seen way before having kids and after the kids you should have dealt with it firmly.

The main thing you did that was damaging due to your own FLAWS is you had kids with this particularly selfish and mentally unstable woman. It was your fault you did that since you were at least 50% responsible for the conception of those kids. Because you are human and have flaws which blinded you to her character,,,,you had kids with her. Your flaws caused you to really blow it for the kids. Because of the toxic damage the wife will do to the kids now, married or not.

It was your flaw of blindness that led you to ignore the red flags, the signs she was not a good person, and the cheating episodes. You continued on in blindness which now, is hurting your kids. You were so blind to her faults that you were even eagerly adopting yet another child! It is kind of you to adopt the baby but had you realized how your wife really was, you maybe would have taken another direction.

I hope you fully see your wife now and who she is and what she is capable of. so that you never let her back in the marriage. For the kids sake.

It would not matter as much if it was just you, no kids, and you went back with her and let her walk all over you like before.... except now you have those precious children to think of. They deserve much better than her.

I saw JL tell you your kids needed to talk w/ someone.

I saw him suggest that you are partly responsible for their BEHAVIOR towards their mother, not their feelings...and not their R w/ her.

But, their BEHAVIOR towards her; just as you are responsible for their behavior in any other circumstance.

If their mother contacts them in a non-abusive way, the decent thing... the respectful thing to do would be to reply to her. IMO

He reminded you that it is in your children's best interest to learn how to communicate w/ her.

They need to learn how to talk to her w/o PUNISHING her, and w/o inciting her to abuse them.

And he said that you need to PROTECT them from her abuse.

Nowhere did he suggest that their feelings for her were your fault.

Agreed MM, but...they express their EMOTIONS through their BEHAVIOR.

It is WW that INSISTS on talking with them CONSTANTLY about how she is still a good mother and how bad of a husband I was and how she left me, not them, and how OM is a "good" man and how they WILL like and respect him and and and and and.......see what I'm getting at here?

SHE (WW) is CAUSING their destruction and meltdowns right before her own eyes...I am having to clean up AFTER visits...just like last night!

ab3,

You should be documenting each and every one one of these attacks by your WW on your C with your lawyer. IMHO, your L has no guts.
He is probably one that hates to dispute things in court for lack of self confidence. I suggest you change lawyers and get a bulldog.

There is no excuse for the abuse your WW is putting her children through during this ordeal, and if you don't stand up for them and be their protector, they will turn on you as well.

When your WW went into her tireade and pointed fingers and threatened to remove the babysitter, you should have stopped her dead in her tracks. You could have said: "Take your finger and the rest of your adultress body out of here or I will call the police and charge you with domestic violance aginst your own children.!!!!!"

AB3, YOU are the only hope they have left. Defend them with the vigor of a man protecting his family from the threat of a dragon!!!

Insist your lawyer get on board with this or fire him for his wimpiness.

You are all they have left AB3, don't let them down.

All Blessings,
Jerry

They act from their emotions. All kids do. Many adults do too.

Your WW sure does.

But, they need to learn, (or be reminded) as often as needed, that they, as Christians, must act according to God's will and not their feelings.



And that sort of conversation is abusive....which is where you come in.

You've got to protect them from that.

Your lawyer can insist that she stop bad mouthing you in front of them.

And your children must learn how to communicate to her that they don't want to hear about OM in a RESPECTFUL way.


I see what you're dealing w/.

I'm glad that you found someone your kids can talk to about all of this.


I know.

It totally sucks.

Which is why many are praying for you.

It's called alienation of affection and MOST all custody battles have a clause in them that says neither party will engage in this kind of behavior.

Please think about getting some kind of order to protect the kids from this ca-ca.

It hurts them so much.

Pointing out that you are responsible for your children's BEHAVIOR is not the same thing as suggesting that their feelings for their mother are your fault.

I hope that you will offer a correction/apology to JL.

IF I have misinterpreted JL's posts or their intent, I DO apologize. Perhaps it was his delivery that lead me to believe I was being judged. Again, if I am wrong...I do apologize.

AW, I agree that you need to protect your kids at all costs, and I believe that is what you have been doing, with great effort and to the best of your ability.

It's very easy for an outsider to say "You need to do X" and another outsider to say "You need to do Y". This is compounded by the fact that there is just no way possible for a human to type in every single detail of such a situation, complete with all the nuances, etc., that someone observing in RL might see.

After the initial very-common period of questioning the efficacy of the MB plans, I believe you have shown a lot of integrity, responsibility, wisdom, and Christian faith in your actions. I also believe you have a strong Christian support system in place in RL who can probably judge the intricacies of the situation with the children better than we can through reading posts on an anonymous forum, no matter how well we know the MB plans for dealing with marital problems. This is more than just marital problems, and I can see that we may not be the most qualified to advise, just going on what can be typed in.

It is my opinion that abuse takes many forms, not just physical. I hear people telling you to protect your son from a couple of physical incidents that left no bruises, but telling you to have your kids talk to/text/visit with your WW. Maybe this is just a whole different kind of toxicity than most. It's the kind of toxic environment that seems familiar to me though, unfortunately. As a kid, I probably suffered more from just the toxic environment (which is often not seen as "abusive" from outside) than from the times I was shoved or hit. Or maybe not, maybe I'm just in denial; how can one tell for sure? In any event, yes AW, please protect your kids from your WW's toxic behavior. Please don't force them to talk to her when their instinct is to avoid her manipulative communications. Please don't have them become accustomed to being manipulated, or to expect that is how people interact in healthy situations. If you recognize unhealthy patterns of behavior in WW's actions, please teach your kids coping strategies or find a therapist to do so.

You have my respect too.

"I find it ironic that some (a few here) have suggested that my kids' feelings towards their mother was somehow MY fault!"

aw3,

As gently as I am able to say it, you need to stop being so defensive. Your defensivness overpowers your posts at times. If someone offers you advice and you don't care for it, you can just ignore it. It's one of the beauties of an anonymous message board.

Personally, I don't think anyone has suggested that you are responsible for your kids feelings, but even if they HAD, just let it go. It's totally unimportant in the scheme of your life.

Encourage your children to be children in their responses to their mother and their fear of losing their sister. Especially your son. It sounds like he is trying so hard to be a man...and he is still just a boy.

There is a syndrome called "the motherless child". It affects any child who has lost their mother for ANY reason before the age of 18. It is difficult to overcome and manifests in many ways. Any child in this position needs intervention and counseling and love and patience and lots of understanding as to how to deal with this loss without self-destructing.

The biggest thing that I learned working with children is that they ALL think you can read their minds. It's the main reason that molested and abused children DON'T TELL. They think you already KNOW how they feel and what is happening.

And worst of all, they think it's their fault.

ALWAYS!!!!

They may not be able to express it, they may deny it when you ask. But nevertheless, they think it. That's WHY you must always assume that they are NOT doing well.

A child's world is VERY small. So they think that they are VERY powerful in this small world.
They think that if they think or feel a "bad" thought or a "bad" feeling and then something bad happens(like Mommy leaving, or baby sister going away, even temporarily) that they caused it.

And they think that if they do the right thing(be good, don't make waves, behave like a little adult when all they want to do is cry and hide, pretend that everything is OK when they are panicking inside, etc.) that maybe they can make it all better.

And when that doesn't happen and when no one realizes what is truly going on inside of them, their whole worldview becomes, sometimes, irrepairably skewed. To the point that they spend the rest of their lives trying to get back what has been lost.

Not a lecture, not even advice. Just information. These are things I know about and would feel remiss not to share.

WH2LE

Jayne, While I do appreciate EVERYONE'S input on my ordeal, it seems that you and I are on the same wavelength. AFter last night's manipulations, threats, and comments about OM, WHY would I MAKE my kids speak to a woman they no longer recognize as momma. Before anybody freaks out...YES, I know that WW will always be their mother! What I'm saying is, RIGHT NOW, they don't recognize her AT ALL...and certainly not as their mother. Remember, they went to bed on Thurs. night thinking they had a loving, Christian home and woke up Friday to the vision of her walking out the door.

Now, she's lying to them (and they many times know it), she's manipulating them, she's threatening them, and she is talking about OM like he's Prince Charming incarnate. My point has simply been that I cannot be blamed for their emotions OR their actions right now. So long as I don't hear them by disrespectful or verbally abusive to WW, I am not trying to influence them either way. They feel that the best way to avoid her "abuse" is to avoid her in general. I don't blame them...that's EXACTLY the way I now feel!

The counselor did call back. Their appointment is Tues. at 3. He said he would speak to all 3 of us at first, and then I could excuse myself and let him speak to them together. I think they will both be more comfortable initially with each other present in the room.

I have never meant to sound defensive in my posts. I will admit to possibly misinterpreting JL once and being slightly inappropriate...but I did apologize. Way back on page 3 or 4, someone told me that being Christian didn't necessarily equal always being nice. I think JL's post came on the heels of one of WW's family members accusing me of "turning the kids against her," which I explained I wasn't and they did eventually understand...after I filled them in on all WW (their step daughter)had done to and said to the kids. My guard was just probably WAY up and I was already in DEFENSE mode. I think I've been pretty agreeable otherwise.

I am allowing my kids the freedom to choose if they talk to WW or not. No, I'm not sure what the best "Plan" is here...I'm pretty sure MB doesn't have one for this nuance of my situation. I have and am following Plan B still in regards to WW, but the "Plan" regarding my kids is MUCH more complex!

You know the answer to this.---->

What's wrong w/ encouraging them to still be respectful when she is NOT being abusive to them?


Why couldn't they say, "I don't feel like talking right now, but thanks for your message...or thanks for thinking of me."?

You'd be teaching them how to be honest about their feelings in a respectful way.


You're not interested in whether or not they are being disrespectful or verbally abusive to their mother when you're not around to hear it?

Is that what you are saying?

No MM, that's NOT what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that WW will not give them a moments peace. She is CONTANTLY calling or texting. It is ALWAYS the dame old "drama-talk" about how they MUST love her and they MUST like OM. How she STILL loves them even though she left. How she is going to have their sister removed, etc.

The kids and I are to the point where we really don't talk about THIS very often. They now see that I am doing fine but see the woman who use to be their mother constantly trying to "play on" their emotions.

Again, I didn't create this mess, I can't fix it. IF I continue to FORCE them to call and see her, they will eventually resent me as well!

Ok, ab.

Prayers going out for you and your children...

aw3,

Your children do not see their mother as "constantly trying to play on thir emotions". That is the adult view.

They see a very scary lady they think is their mother. They love her. They are trying to make things right with her. All they want in the whole world is for HER to love them again.

Yes, you can fix this. But it is going to take years. You can't make their mother behave, but you can take the burden off them. She won't do it. You HAVE to. Tell them to turn their phones off. YOU check them and erase voice mails and text messages so that they do not have to feel the constant agonizing pull of your WW. Send a message through M that you are doing this.

Tell them their mother DOES love them but that right now she can not show them properly. SHE does you know. But she is clearly sick.

Your kids do not NEED to seethat you aredoing fine. All they need to know is that you love them, you will take care of them and you will protect them.

Tell your son NOT to snoop or look at his mother's phone. Part of the reason he does this is to let YOU know what is going on. HE IS desperately trying to put his family back together, He does not need the details he has seen.

WH2LE

wow AB....you know just the other day there was a horrible story from the weekend about a man who police shot to death in stanislaus because he was beating a 12-24 months child in the middle of the road.....people who stopped to help tried everything but he kept pushing people off and continuing what he was doing....he had tunnel vision...he believed the child had demons....the paramedics tried to recessitate the child but he did not make it......I remember my feeling at hearing this story....I was so angry....had I been on that road and come across that....not only as a human but as a mother I would had beaten the u know what out of the guy...he is the reason some people carry baseball bats in there car.

Right now after reading what WW did to the kids last night I feel the same way i did when i heard the story about the little boy. I would love to pay her a visit. Not only to threaten but lay her hands on her son in the manner she has.....if my Ex H ever did anything like that....as the saying goes "hell hath no fury".

Sorry to rant the Italian in me took over for a bit. I am glad you are the rock for your kids and I believe your strong enough to get them and yourself past this.

Abandoned,

While I appreciate your apology, it really was not necessary. I know you are under a lot of pressure. I also know there are no clear paths in this mess. I was hoping to focus you on the issue of your two oldest children first only because it seems they need protection.

If you can sort out some arrangement with your baby to be with her brother (?) for awhile so that you can focus on your older two that would be great. If your lawyer can help you with protecting them or you can find a lawyer who is more protactive in this do so. Gradually, ever so gradually this mess will simplify itself so that you can get a good grip on it. One step at a time.

Your child will need a relationship with their mother of that I am certain. Will they have one??? It depends a bit on you, and it depends a LOT on her. Right now your W seems out of control and shielding them from this would eventually help all parties because it will mean fewer issues the kids have to overcome.

You are getting good advice and it appears some help in the right places.

God Bless,

JL

WH2LE....Again, it is sometimes hard to interpret the written word, especially when trying to be concices and brief on these forums.

Your children do not see their mother as "constantly trying to play on thir emotions". That is the adult view.
Yes, those are MY words, theirs are more like, "Dad, I just really don't want to go...She makes me nervous...I have butterflies in my stomach when I'm around her...She never talks about anything else...I don't want to hear about her boyfriend..."

I realize that, in time, things will improve between them. Quite possibly, they already would have if she would have backed off a little like I asked. She simply is pushing them farther away every time she opens her mouth.

And, after seeing my emotional state the first week or so of this seperation...YES, they DO need to see that I'm now doing fine! They knew I loved them even when I was a basketcase!

Last, my son wasn't SNOOPING. He's a teenager...constantly playing with cell phones to "check out the ring tones" or look at the pics or play the games. He ASKED to see that phone, she AGREED. She should have said NO or deleted anything he might find that would make him mad.

This is what is getting harder...I agree with what most of you are saying, but neither you or I are completely understanding the emotional nuiances of what the other is saying. Life is confusing enough without being confused by a message board.