aw3,

Truly, I am NOT trying to berate you. You and I are in total agreement about the difficulty of the written word.

What I am trying to do is to get you to look at your children's actions from a completely different perspective. To try and "read your children's minds" just a little in order to protect them. To shield them ever so slightly from the utter HORROR that is adultery.

The likelihood is that your son WAS snooping. This isn't bad on his part. He is a smart, tech savvy kid who knew how to find what he wanted. He didn't find those things by accident. He went looking for them. Of course his mother should have deleted stuff or refused to let him see her phone. But NOT so he wouldn't get MAD. So he wouldn't be hurt. So he wouldn't have to see the depravity of her actions and have the image of her text messages or phone call lengths, etc. in his mind forever.

As adults, we know how how difficult it is to see those things and not be able to wipe them out of our thoughts. How much worse it is for a child! Encourage your son NOT to do those things or look at those things for the same reason that you tell him not to look at porn. It's wrong, it hurts him, he will never be able to forget it and you don't want him to have to deal with it.

The truth is that for a long time, YOU are going to have to try to stay a step ahead of what your WW is doing where your kids are concerned and then when she does something stupid like she did the other night, YOU are going to HAVE to clean up the mess. To find a way to minimize the damage she is doing. Give your kids "words" that they can say to their mother. Help them find child-appropriate ways that they can deal with her when SHE is trying to draw them into her ADULT world. Take the burden off them. It's crushing them. No, it is NOT your fault they are going through this. But because you are their father it IS your responsibility.

Stinks for sure. Imagine how God feels when he looks at us and sees what WE do. But as our FATHER, he took the responsibility for OUR screw-ups and sent us HIS SON to fix OUR mistakes. There are no words.

I think(and please hear that I am NOT offering this as a criticism, but as an observation) that you think your children are more "adult" in their thoughts than they are. They are children and children do not REASON, especially where their families are concerned. They FEEL. And right now, they are scared to death. And your son, God Bless Him, is trying so hard to be a man and to find a way to fix it all.

What I wish *I* could say to your children is THIS: "Don't worry. I know that you are scared.
You don't have to help your Mom and Dad fix this. They both love you very much. Grown-ups mess stuff up sometimes. And this is a VERY grown-up thing. It's not fair and it's not right. Your dad is working very hard to make this alright for you. Your dad will always take care of you, till you are grown-up and can do it yourself. He is praying and talking to people and even finding someone for YOU to talk to. Most of all, remember what the Bible says, "ALL things work together for good for those who LOVE the Lord and are called according to his purpose" In the end, GOD will make this right. We don't know how, we don't know when. We just KNOW. "

Blessings to you aw3. I pray for the strength for you to be the protector for your kids. I am so glad you have found a counselor for your them.

WH2LE

I'm sorry, you can't possibly foresee every possible scenario and prepare your kids for everything. I don't see how you could have known to tell your kids "Don't ask to see mommy's new techno-gadget." Next time they may ask "Where are the scissors/batteries/some other item" and she directs them to a drawer... with a picture of OM on top.

WW gave her phone to her teenage son when he asked if he could look at it. She knew exactly what would happen. She may have even been showing the cell phone to them just so he would ask, who knows.

If an intelligent adult can't guard against her manipulations except by having NC, how can children be expected to have strong enough boundaries to not get sucked in? This is of an entirely different level than the average WW, IMHO. This isn't just that the adults can't get along. It is a toxic relationship to the children also, at least at the moment.

WW is *using* her kids emotionally. She needs them to agree with her: that OM is wonderful, that she is doing the right thing, that she loves them and that she's a good mother. (I didn't say she loves them; I said she needs them to agree that she loves them.) When they don't respond in the way she wants, she becomes enraged and threatens them *psychologically*. She threatens to have one of them removed.

This is a mother, telling two of her kids that unless they think and behave the way she wants, that she will have another of the kids, their little sister, removed.

How come I'm the only one seeing the depths of this depravity??? Am I really so far off-base? I'm open to the possibility that I may be mistaken about some things... but this feels like I'm saying the sky is blue and you guys are concentrating on the little green flash of light that can sometimes be seen at sunset on the west coast. Sure what you're saying is factually accurate... but there's soooooo much more, so much worse going on.

AW's son isn't afraid of his mother *physically* (that's what AW said). He's physically strong enough to defend himself if need be. However, he instinctually knows to protect himself emotionally by avoiding her texts and phone calls at least when she's behaving this way.

WW laying hands on him is completely unacceptable, but IMHO the psychological stuff is much more damaging and harder to recognize and harder to defend against.

There *are* people who will take advantage of any weakness shown, will use you if you show respect, and will hurt you if you show H&O. These types of people induce reactions even in strong, healthy ppl and will appear to be the injured party to the outside world unless you look carefully.

IMHO WW is acting like that at least now. I think her children need to be protected from that. I think they are vulnerable to being hurt if one assumes otherwise.

I agree Jayne. The only thing that has worried me outside that is aw's statement that the whole family is 'avoiding' her texts and calls. On the outside, I DO want her kids to not talk to her. To protect themselves. But I recently was taught a lesson on my thread about teaching my child to deal with her troublesome father through a form of manipulation. Basically, she didn't want her dad to know she had gotten cavities, because in his negativity, she 'knew' he would criticize her (true, he would). So she asked me not to tell him. I agreed. Knowing it was a gray area, and that I was teaching her to avoid her own personal conflicts through manipulating the situation. I recently rectified it, because the guilt has been eating away at me. Guilt over teaching my child to not live with integrity, to own herself and her issues and deal with them honestly.

So the only niggling I got out of aw's story is that his kids are...adjusting their methods for dealing with unpleasantness, through avoidance in this case. But what about the next case? Will it be easier next time to avoid more, to lie to get to avoid, to manipulate? Heck, as long as you're getting the output you want, right?

I've read a lot about empowering children to face their fears. How it has such an unbelievable effect on them - for the rest of their lives. And also how much of an affect the opposite has, how it erodes your moral fiber.

I've no room to talk, obviously, but I just keep thinking that in this case, if they were my kids, I would want them to either get on the phone with her, or write her a letter saying 'I don't like the way you are treating me, and it hurts me, so I don't want to see you right now.'

Does that make sense?

I agree with you, too, Jayne. I'm not seeing it the way some of the others are.

While respecting elders is important, somewhere the children also need to learn that they can CHOOSE not have a toxic person in their life. Parent or not. It could be a HUGE relief to not be forced to interact with someone who is so damaging.

I think it is damaging to force the children to interact, when it sounds like some get physically ill from it.

In teaching them how to find their own identities, to be in control of themselves, and to recognize the fact the your create your own happiness or own unhappiness......these are the moments that define some of that.

They don't HAVE to interact with someone who does harm. It is a choice to keep people who make you physically ill and mentally scared out of your life. You can choose to have people who treat you well and contribute to your well-being in your life.

I think it is far more damaging to force them to deal with her, thereby making their own emotions and thoughts less important than pleasing her. Tells them that THEY are of no value and they will be sacrificed to keep someone else happy.

Fox

Yes it makes sense... and would be appropriate in most cases.

But just like we *actively encourage* BS's to refrain from H&O with WS's, and to go into Plan B to protect themselves when the situation becomes too unhealthy for them... just as we encourage battered wives to NOT be H&O about their plans to leave, and to just *leave*... I think it's dangerous to encourage these kids to open themselves up for more psychological attacks. I think we're dealing with so much more than just disapproval from a parent.

This mother is letting her kids know that if they don't supply her with the proper respect and adoration *she* feels she deserves, and if they don't feel and think the same way she does, that she can make one of them "go away".

Subtext: You are an extension of me. If you no longer meet my needs, or if you try to have thoughts or feelings separate from mine, I say you don't exist.

I can't for the life of me understand why everyone wants AW to protect his kids from a push or a shove, but wants him to force his kids to speak to her.

I can imagine being in the son's situation. The shove would make me angry. The psychological threat would make me sick to my stomach, depressed, terrified, like I'm responsible for things beyond my control, like I'm wrong for feeling the way I do, like I'm bad.

The damage can happen in an instant. AW can't foresee all the different things she may say. She can turn from pleasant to nasty in an instant, slicing them open when their defenses are relaxed.

They know instinctually that it makes them feel bad to talk to mommy. Bad in their core, not just guilty for having cavities or breaking a vase.

It's easy to admit someone is in an abusive situation if they have bruises. Unfortunately these attacks are less apparent. If AW sees damage coming from his kids accepting WW's texts and phone calls, and thinks it would hurt them to force them to talk to her, I believe him.

IMHO this is more than unpleasantness. Unless they get away from her influence, they are going to have boundary issues and self-identity issues for the rest of their lives. And they will NOT be able to handle unpleasantness except by accommodating or becoming like WW.

Thanks Fox. That expresses very well what I've been trying to say.

But I'm not talking about repeated dialogue. Not even speaking in person, if need be. More about stating their feelings, making their feelings heard, if they want to, rather than finding an avoidance way of dealing with it. I think they would be more empowered by stating their unhappiness - even if it's just a symbolic act through writing it down or drawing a picture or sending a text. I realize it can be hard to ask a child to go up against their parent in person; thus all the other avenues I've suggested. But by just saying 'pretend she's not around' doesn't teach them to own and project their own feelings. IMO

Yet another way of looking at it...

King Solomon would not say, since both women say the kid is theirs, that the kid should be forced to talk to both and treat both with respect.

Solomon in his wisdom removed the kid from the woman who was willing to cut the kid in two.

I didn't get that at all from WH2LE's post.

I didn't think she was blaming ab for not knowing ahead of time to tell his son not to search his mother's cell phone.

I think she was throwing that out there for future reference. Obviously, if he decides to end all contact between his kids and her, the CP issue would no longer be an issue.

I get what you are saying.

Hopefully the counselor they will talk to can help ab and the children find the healthiest way to deal w/ this mess.

OMGosh! You JUST described the way OW is beginning to treat OCDD.

Which opens the door for her response. My DD14 did this and WH made her pay for it. And placed the blame for her words directly on me - completely discounted her words saying that I told her what to write.

She can't be reasoned with, by AW, OR his children. She's wayward. Obviously, their thoughts and well-being mean NOTHING to her.

Fox

cat, I can see this could be empowering, especially for someone older; maybe for them too, if they were safe from any response WW might give... I'm not sure they are safe in that respect right now. Maybe they are. I trust AW to know better than we do.

I agree with Fox: I can see this as setting them up for more attack.

I've DONE that as a kid. Especially when told by a trusted adult that it's the right thing to do. It's very dangerous.

Why can't we protect these kids the same way we protect BS's or battered wives? If they need some time away to get their bearings, their boundaries, and to learn coping strategies... it really seems abusive to me to force them to do something they instinctually know is dangerous.

Thank you MM!! You understood me exactly.

And Jayne, FWIW, I agree with you on almost every point. I think the situation is depravity at it's worst, the children need protecting, and if they are continually exposed to the mother, then aw3 MUST learn HOW to pick up the pieces. He must see them as children who need protecting.

It's why I suggested that he turn their cell phones off and screen all texts and voice mails and delete them before the children see or hear them. Stop trying to make them protect themselves.

It's just that so far, the kids are having continued contact and I don't believe, IMtrulyHumbleO, that aw3 understands that their rections to her are different than HIS. As long as they have this kind of contact, they are going to try and make things RIGHT so mommy will love them again and their family will be whole. And if they don't, it's going to eat them up inside. This is what kids do. They are SOOOO confused.

I'm sorry if in any way it didn't look like I get it.

WH2LE

And also, I believe that if there is any legal way to do it, these kids should NOT be forced to be with their mother right now. But so far,no one, not even the lawyer, will report her actions as abuse to the proper authorities. So, if they are going to be forced to be in her abusive presence, it just makes sense to me that aw3 MUST learn how to mitigate the effect. One way is to stop forcing them to see that she is calling their cell phones. Then the decision of whether to respond to her calls or not is taken completely out of their hands. And M can inform the WW that this is how it is and that it is aw3's decision, NOT the kid's.

WH2LE: And it seems I agree with you on almost all your points.

But I disagree that his kids need to be forced to speak with WW, respectfully or not, in the current situation. It is my opinion they need some time away from her influence, some counseling and some age-appropriate coping skills before any more exposure. Right now they are defenseless, except for their instinctual feeling that they don't want to talk to her.

I'm not saying you were saying this. But it is something that AW is being told to do. Not everything I posted was in direct response to something you posted, WH2LE. I was posting things I thought would be helpful for AW to hear.

As long as we're on the subject, I agree with everything you wrote except the following two quotes:



He asked. WW was fully aware, maybe even wanted, maybe even set it up to unfold the way it did. AW can't think of every possible scenario and tell his kids to not do such-and-such. She was probably being "nice" to them at the time. The only protection is to remove them from her influence.



I agree with this with the caveat that IMHO they need to learn these things BEFORE any more exposure. So I agree with the idea to screen all msgs, just like a M does for a BS in Plan B. Great idea.

Screening the messages sounds like a great solution.

AB, please let us know how it went with the Adoption people today. We're here for ya.

Ah Jayne,

We posted near the same time I see.

I am actually relieved that we mostly agree. I consider you a "vet" and respect your posts.

As an aside, I grew up with a narcissitic mother also. I was well into my 30's before I learned how to deal with her. My sister(who had the worst of it with my mother) moved to Florida 9 years ago and my mother has never once been there to see her, even though before that she went to Florida once a year. My sister learned that if she invites her, she WON'T come. So she makes a point to invite her several times a year. Crazy, huh?

I am going to look for the book you recommended to aw3.

Apologize to aw3 for the TJ.

WH2LE

Ah, thanks WH2LE! Funny, I don't *feel* like a vet... I wonder when that happened? (*Looking around to see when exactly I got "old"...)

And it's ok even if we disagree. I was finding myself disagreeing with a couple of the ppl I respect the absolute most here, and I was truly trying to figure out where I was going wrong... but I kept coming back to the same way of thinking.

When Fox started posting, I started thinking maybe I wasn't so crazy after all. And I felt strongly about it, that if I wasn't crazy then it needed to be said.

It's all ok. There's been a few times when I was wrong, and my friends don't hate me for it, I think...

AW I said more than one prayer today, I sure hope your mtg went well...

Well...I suppose it's time for me to chime in...on ALL points.

First, the meeting today went well. They were more concerned for my financial stability at present than anything else. They also cleared up a FEW things that my local DSS had mis-communicated. NO, they would not look favorably on allowing me to adopt her if there were a NASTY custody dispute. But, they really mean NASTY, not just one in general. Also, they view R as the best possible solution for all of us...so long as there were counseling or some proof of an effort to rectify whatever went wrong. I asked the last question...and here's why.

Around lunch today, I received a text from WW stating, "I want to come home." This time...I did respond with, "Really, why?"

I wasn't willing to talk to her any further if she talked only about the kids or being lonely. She responded back one more time, "OM is gone, call him if you don't believe me, today is the day that X and Y's father killed their mother. I am quitting my job, I am dead now."

I DID respond, one more time, "IF OM is gone, then and only then would I be willing to speak to you...call me when you're ready to REALLY talk."

That's it...nothing further, until her mom and step-dad showed up at my door just as the Adoptions people were leaving. They initially were very accusatory of me due to some lies and exaggerations told to them by WW. I was able to clear up a few misconseptions and they agreed in the end that they had no idea what WW was doing or why either. They left here to go and speak with her...not sure what will happen next!!!

As to the kids. They HAVE expressed to here their desire NOT to speak to her, in any way. They simply weren't given time to adjust to her leaving before OM was revealed and they began being told that they WILL like and respect him. Then, they get threats to have their sister removed...and you think I would ENCOURAGE them to speak to her now? I haven't deleted her texts or voicemails because I do not want to be accused of Alienating their Affection. I'm afraid of how that might look in court and thought I should protect them from EVER having to go there again. A judge will have the FINAL decision, I didn't want to look vindictive.

I'm protecting them as much and as best I know how. I know that some of you will say that I should NEVER even speak to her again...regardless of why or if she calls. I still believe that God CAN change a person, but, I will have to see VERY clear evidence of that before I consider R now.

To me, MB is about saving M's FIRST, and individuals SECOND, once no hope for R exists. R is still not imminent, but I would like to hear WW's explanation of ALL that has gone on and what she was thinking during much of it! She HAS been extremely toxic the past 7 weeks, and I'm not sure the bridges she's burned CAN be rebuilt. For now, I'm just doing as I have been all along, being a Father first, and "Abandoned" second!

Go ahead...let me have it!

Wow AB, didn't see that one coming. What did she mean by this?