ezb, this is your thread, not his. We have no stake in 'proving' our points. You are the one trying to find an answer here. If you don't want to hear what we get from reading your posts, that's your perogative. But if you're just going to keep trying to defend your opinion of yourself and are not going to be open enough to question why nearly all of us are telling you the same thing - which usually means the one person who doesn't agree isn't seeing something that the rest are - then you just won't get any answers, I guess. Your choice.

This whole thing started with you being accused of being controlling. When we didn't know you, we gave you the benefit of the doubt. Now that we have engaged with you for quite a while, more and more people are trying to gently suggest to you that, yes, you do in fact seem to be somewhat controlling. So maybe that really IS what went wrong with your marriage. You either don't or can't see it, so if I was in your shoes, I would be tackling that - honestly - with an IC.

That said, bunny could just walk away and get on with her life or else go to MC counseling with you. So there are indeed two of you perpetuating these problems.

I guess it's y'all's call on what to do next.

I have always planned to work on fixing this relationship. I let the divorce go through because I could not run the risk of the changes he said he was making to continue since he keeps breaking the no contact rule I do not believe the changes would be for good.




He can have the last word. I don't care about that. I just wanted things to be correct and the whole honest truth told. Not half truths and cover ups.

Also thought I should be on here to answer any questions.

My choice is to try to understand. Without proper communication I cannot understand. Just because Keep says this does not mean my opinion, view or actions should change. If I'm asking these questions then obviously I'm curious to know more about it thus make changes in myself if I feel it is valid.



Have I not stated in this thread many times I learned to control and manipulate?


I only have choices over what I do.

Are you willing to be on here to work on things?

So you want to understand, I'll try. But these are very subtle things we're talking about, so as you're the instigator, and we all justify our own actions, it's likely you won't see what we're seeing. But I'll try.

What about your responsibility for your actions, not just future communication? Why not dissect the past to learn from it? - avoidance

Not your business to ask her if it’s right for her to do anything – that is blame.

“you need”, “instead of tearing us apart”, “or you need to…” - manipulation and trying to impose a feeling (guilt) on her

“more than you will EVER know" is a very subtle (and possibly subconscious) attempt on your part to ‘prove’ to her that your love is stronger, better, more ‘right’ or else makes you a victim of her callousness
“if you can’t do that then it is what it is” – another attempt at making you the lovestruck victim of a heartless woman
“xoxoxo” – proving your love (“I’m the victim here, if everyone could just see it”)

But you didn’t ask her feelings. You asked why she wasn’t interacting with you. That is placing blame, subtle admonishment, on her for not manning up as much as you are.

Deflecting the fact that you did something you agreed not to, by saying ‘it was needed’ as though you are righteous in your decision to break your agreement; thus, SHE is NOT righteous in being upset that you broke your agreement – subtle blame shift

You are both admitting that you are NOT improving, that you are indeed contacting her on both NC and C days – saying you have been ‘steadily improving’ is obviously not true, therefore it is only said to make you look better – manipulation

Your justification for not adhering to your agreement? Why is what you feel more important than the agreement? - control

If you can cut off contact that easily, you would have done so. On the next page, you said:
To state now that you will honor the agreement implies that either you could have done so earlier but chose not to, or that you suddenly have new strength of will; and yet you come back and say you don’t even plan to keep the agreement – manipulation

But you haven’t!

So? We all learn how to do what we do. Just because we learned it from someone else doesn’t mean we should keep doing it. If you truly want to NOT control and manipulate, start examining your actions and payoffs and innermost feelings as to why you’ve come to this point.

Not trying to rake you through the coals, but you guys aren't getting anywhere, and we all are getting a sense why. I hope both of you will go away, alone, and get some honest reflection of what could have been done differently. Good luck!

Thank you cat for taking the time.



When I first started this thread I listed my actions and how I believe it made her feel. This was not the start of my dissecting the past and trying to work on it but I feel it was a
very strong statement. Since I gave that to her after she asked me to consider it I have offered numerous opportunities to discuss it. They were turned down except for our last
session she said she would discuss it and additions to it but she did not bring out the papers or say she wanted to discuss it. I have and I'm willing to discuss it anytime.




I was asking her her feelings. She has expressed that I don't consider or listen to them. Did I word the questions wrong?


At what point can I express my feelings also? At what point do I say "ok I have had enough hurt and I've been offering nothing but loving solutions and it is not helping"?


I have the same feelings as you cat. Her actions make me feel she is doing what she is doing just to make things easier and smoother till it's done so she can say goodbye for good. Both our feelings are valid.



"I felt it was needed" is the correct quotation. I was again expressing feelings and being open to her expressing hers and discussing it. I feel discussion is a way to resolve things for POJA.


I'm not here to make myself look good. I have no need for that and that is why I have been admitting and working on things. I feel I have been steadily improving. I have and will make mistakes.


I have apologized for not adherring to my agreement and admitted my half. I will continue to work on it. I never stated my feelings were more important. I understand that when I do contact her on NC days that is how it makes her feel and
I stated that in a previous post today.


When did I say I don't plan on keeping thee agreement?


The plans I was talking about I have kept. These are my plans, not ours or hers.


I'm doing the best I can on this.

I know you are, ezb. That's why we're still trying to give advice, I guess. You know what, though? We're just lay people. We are truly not qualified to get you and your exwife back together; it would take some professionals for that. We basically just regurgitate the 'rules' here and add our own experiences. Maybe it will take something else.

I truly try to understand cat. I feel it helps us get things out in the open and hope she continues to come here. It is good to get opinions though and I thank everyone for that.

I have offered to go to seminars, other counseling, basically everything.

I know I have broke the NC days and realize the way it makes her feel.

I guess its simple wording of things I cannot understand how to put them in a better light. I feel I've made positive strides in that though.

There's a lot more to this then has been stated including bipolar 2 being diagnosed after quite awhile of it being diagnosed as a couple other things. There's the view we had of our lives being a fairy tale forever (obviously not possible).

Dispite all this we do both have deep love for each other. There's just a lot of hurt being slung around right now and it doesn't help. I firmly believe in loving solutions and only wish to apply that immediately. It's frustrating when you can't.

When you say "planned" that is past tense. Is that correct?

Thank you so much, Cat! I have been away for several hours and had planned to come back and try to put into words the subtle nuances I see. But you have done such an excellent job of putting into words what I see in this situation, that there is little to add.

So EZB, basically I say DITTO to all the points listed in the quoted post.

I was asking for your points though, not someone elses. You seem to voice your opinion strongly so.

I thought I already explained; Cat's points are the SAME points I had. I rarely agree with a post verbatim, but Cat did such an excellent job of summing this one up, that it would be redundant to say it all again.
Do you really not understand what I am saying, or are you trying to pick an argument?

Yes its an excuse.


Good point. I need to be myself.


I don't have that plan set yet but I now see I should be working on that and less on our relationship. I'm not sure what the fear is to be honest. I believe at this time its more pain then fear coupled with not wanting to hurt her. I will always love her.

I have never tried to or intended to pick arguements and as far as what your saying all I see is you agreeing with others and posting no facts on your "theories". For you to just say something and expect that I take it as fact will never be the case and it shouldn't be for anyone.

Nothing I could ever say could be taken as a proven fact. Nothing anyone could ever say can be proven to you as fact. I told you what I PERCEIVE. If you allow it to, knowing that multiple people (as opposed to just one or two) perceive the SAME things about you, can be a VERY helpful hint as to how you come across.

If you wish to discount my comments, by all means do so. I am only telling you what I sense. I have no dog in this fight. Whether you choose to heal and live an authentic, game-free life is totally up to you. You have told us you are broken and hurting and that you grew up learning to manipulate and control, so I hope that you will break free of that painful life.

By the very act of coming here, I assumed you wanted other people to share their perceptions; otherwise you would have just bought a book.

I've shared; you are free to pick and choose. I have nothing to sell you.

I have asked for your examples of your perceptions.


These are the things that I will discount. I never said I grew up learning to control and manipulate. I learned that thru my XW.


I came her at my EW's suggestion. I've come to learn the fact it takes 2 people to work on a marriage and my mistakes aside with the NC I feel there is currently only one of us willing to do that.

I would like to point this out though. Everyone but LA is just focusing on me and my actions being held accountable for and contributing. I have no problem being held accountable for my actions good and bad. I point this out because if it's truly to be worked on all actions need to be held accountable. Blame shifting is done when someone is not held accountable yet someone else is. I'm here to work on my issues and for me.

You are the one here who began a thread and asked for input. That's why we are addressing you. If Bunny starts a thread here asking for our help or opinions or perceptions, I feel certain she will get plenty of feedback! It wouldn't work well for people to use YOUR thread to try and hold Bunny accountable for anything.

I have no doubt but what she has problems, challenges, weak points and strong points. We all do. That's not the issue on THIS thread.

You appear to be talking in circles. You imply that all of us (besides LA) should be doing something to hold your ex accountable, then you turn right around and say "I'm here to work on my issues and for me."

EXACTLY! So what is the problem with us addressing just those very things?

If Bunny wants to start a thread asking for our feedback, that is her choice. We don't drag people kicking and screaming to MB.

You are insistent that I give you my perceptions. Do you want them blunt and unvarnished, or do you prefer the padded 2 by 4s?

I'm insistent only that you don't change the things I've said.

ex: grew up learning to manipulate and control when I never said that.

ex: You are insistent that I give you my perceptions. When did I insist that? What I asked for was your examples of your perceptions.


I'm done with this run around with you.