Yep. (Nodding head in agreement to MicheleG's post).

I'd bet my last dollar on this statement.

What is YOUR plan, AW?

This part of it is about YOU, not her.

It's about you getting your footing.

So far she's done nothing but UTTER a few words.

So in the face of her WORDS, what is your PLAN?

AB,
I'm early in the recovery stage myself, but I can tell that the best thing I have done was to give my WW a stringent set of requirements on her part for me to attempt recovery. From what I've seen of your story, I'm not sure your WW is really ready to help herself because I don;t think she understands the destruction she has caused. But, If I were you I would require the following for any hope of her eventually returning home:

1. Complete NC w/ OM including a NC letter and open to verification by you whenever you need to.

2. Submit to a complete mental evaluation by a competent mental health professional of your choosing and to follow any recommendations that professional makes.

3. Begin and continue w/ IC with a counselor of your choosing.

4. Willingness to be completely honest and answer any questions you may have about affair or OM including submitting to a polygraph if you should choose to request it.

5. Commit completely to recovering your marriage to include MC w/ a counselor of your choice adn including a sincere apology to both you and your children for her poor choices which have devastated your family.

These would be requirements for me to consider her coming back home at a future date when I was sure that she was truly repenant and committed to recovery.

If she meets all of these requirements, you can be reasonably sure that she isn't just playing you again. Don't make it easy for her to come back are you're just inviting her to hurt you and your children over and over again.

Took my son to counseling...just got back.

Counselor says my son is very intelligent, very well-spoken, and VERY angry. He said (I spoke with him as well afterwards) that he told my son that it was okay to be angry. He agreed that he would be angry as well given the circumstances.

Nothing earth shattering here, but I did ask the IC if there was anything more I could do to help the situation. He said I should just keep being the stable father and allowing my son to have his own feelings. He instructed me NOT to attempt to discourage him from expressing himself and said he thought it was probably best that he NOT speak excessively to WW for a while. He's afraid that things will only be said to cause further resentment and prolong his animosity.

As to MY plans regarding R. I'll admit, I AM vulnerable to WW's manipulation (DUH...obviously). But, I also have to admit that I am doing just fine without her. Life here at home isn't really all that much different than it was before (meals, chores, child care, etc). We ALL are great until WW rears her head again. She's been manipulating us all for years.

SHE will have to accept her portion (MOST) of the blame for what has happened. I will gladly and honestly accept and address my faults, but they do pale in comparison to hers at this point. IC is JUST the first step. MC, SC(spiritual), FC....WOW, it seems like an awful lot when you list them out this way!

Basically, SHE will have top fix HERSELF before I will now consider R!!! I can't fix her or even "help" her get it. She MUST see her faults for what they are and get them addressed.

ANY possible R IS DEFINITELY MONTHS down the road! I think what's really killing her now is seeing that I CAN survive without her...but not being so sure she can survive without me and the kids. I know they will always be a part of her life...but here's another thing the counselor just told me:

He asked my son how he would feel if I dated someone else. He said (in so many words) that he hoped it would be someone whom I could be happy with, and that would eventually adopt his baby sister so she could have a momma and become like a mother to he and his older sister as well.

TOUGH reality from a 12 year old...I'm thinking maybe he's the stronger of the two of us now, you think?

That is just so sad. But geez, I wonder why the counselor would ask him something like that?!?! You're not even divorced yet. Bad move IMHO.

I wondered that as well, but I assume it was early on and he was trying to get my son to see that I would not always be alone either. Maybe he just wanted him to see that perspective.

I'm not really surprised at what my son said though, he has insisted that he doesn't want WW to EVER come back home!

See that's the thing, he's not supposed to be stronger than you. This is so messed up. Your son is trying to play the role of an adult right now, of a parent really..and this is not healthy.

Remind me if I missed it, what sort of counsellor is this? Is it someone you know from church? Why on earth is he discussing even the possibility of your dating when you are married??

He is a Licensed Clinical Psychologist. And, again, I think he was at first trying to get him to see things differently about WW.

And, YEAH, I agree, why does my son see this when I don't? If he doesn't want her back, why in the world would I???

Is he someone you previously knew? Is he a friend from church?

I don't understand what you are saying about the therapist "trying to get him to see things differently about WW."

I'm trying to understand why he is talking about you dating, on his very first visit with your son. What am I missing?

A very good question to explore in IC for yourself AB.

Healing thoughts to you and your WW.

I don't know how to explain this to you aw3, but your son DOES want his mother back. Desperately.

He is a child. Not an adult. The assumption HAS to be made that he wants his mother back. He is justifiably angry so he says he doesn't want her back, but he DOES. He is a child and he CAN NOT sort these feelings out. YOUR feelings and HIS feelings are different. YOU can get another wife. HE can NEVER get another mother. He wants her back. He does not want to be HURT by her anymore. He is trying to be a brave ADULT and say that he doesn't care. He doesn't want her. But he is a child and he DOES.

And what about counseling for your daughter???? I thought they were going to be seen together the first time. She is certainly in as much pain as your son.

Dating??????? I absolutely can NOT believe that a reputable counselor would ask THAT question at a first session.
How horribly PAINFUL for your son to be asked to picture that!!! Has he not had enough pain without being FORCED by a counselor to imagine his dad with another woman at this stage?????

But once again, he answered as he would expect an adult man to answer. I actually cried when I pictured this brave boy of yours trying not to hurt.

WH2LE

Is he a Licensed CHILD Psychologist????

WH2LE

AB,

So is your plan to go really dark now? Really exercising control at no direct contact in any way...only through an intermediary? So you can sort through your own stuff, do some healing...understand that your WW is not your W? Getting straight on your choices may well help ease your children's fears...you example how to cope.

I'm sorry the counselor introduced even the idea of you dating while married...because a child can hear that and think, "Oh, so it's okay what Mom's doing, then"...which is technically dating while married, isn't it?

I think your son is saying he doesn't ever want your wife to hurt you...he doesn't want anyone to ever hurt again...worth hearing and knowing what he thinks...tough to do in crisis, to reach the words which express us...move them closer to him, 'k, through your own sharing.

LA

As previously stated, my daughter is away at church camp this week. I did say they would go together the first time, but I forgot that camp was this week.

Obviously, I'm not a counselor, so I don't really know what the motive was behind the dating question. I assume he asked that if "somewhere in the future..." but, I wasn't present at that time so I don't exactly know. I will find out next week...and, both kids WILL go then.

Of course I realize that my son DOES want his mom back. But...I don't think even he wants WW back, he does see the difference! He may not know specific details, but even he can see that she treats he and his sisters differently now!

Is the therapist someone you know from your church?

There's a reason I keep asking this question.

Hello AB3. My morning prayers are still holding you and you family in the forefront of my prayers.

I am also concerned with this line of questioning from your son's counselor. This is not proper for the first session. I would recommend that you seek other counsel.

Just my 2 cents.

No, he is NOT someone from my church. I had not met him until today. He works with a counseling group I found nearby.

AW3,
I know how hard it was for you to find someone for your children's counseling. Just clarify some boundaries with the counselor when you meet next time.

I'm glad to hear that he recognized immediately that your son is angry. That's what I've been worried about and what I mentioned several days ago. I live with the aftermath of what D does to children. Regardless of what our adult minds think makes sense for them in processing this experience, we have NO IDEA what is going on in their heads, even if we think they are expressing themselves. They are not mature enough to even understand what they are feeling. I was shocked at what it did to my kids.

So glad that you have found another support for your children.

Stay the course.

ABW3, I hope this therapist will be a good choice. It's probably good that he is NOT someone your son is already familiar with. Son might feel pressured to "say the right thing" if he is talking to someone he has to interact with at church.

I'm still concerned that he was on the dating topic so soon!

I know you're going through a lot of difficult things just now. While I may not always agree with all your tactics in dealing with this junk, know that I always pray for your family.

I remember being a very angry 12 yr old child, not being interviewed by a clinical psychologist but being just as angry at my father's abusive behavior and drinking, wishing that I had a different dad and ranting about it to my mother...

How my mother kept a straight face, and appropriately sympathetic as well as telling me that some day I might regret those feelings - I don't know...

I don't know that the therapist actually brought up the dating or if it was the rage of a young boy wanting to wound his mother by replacing her as quickly as she had abandoned him... but if he/she did, highly inappropriate to land another wound inside the heart of a hurt and angry young man...