I wuld divide everything up in the letter into several, four or five short letters, one topic a piece.

Then give him one this week with a request in there to discuss it. He may not have gotten the idea that the long letter needs to be discussed or he may not know how to discuss it. That is actually pretty advanced communication...I wrote my H many letters and he never discussed any of them (not to go against me, it was just the way it was) . I had to verbally dicuss one issue at a time.

You gotta chop into chunks, specific and targetted in order to "bite into this elephant just one bite at a time".

Maybe he has a lot to learn, but yet, he would be willing to learn!

That's an idea. I hadn't thought that the letter might be too long for him to completely comprehend that I want to discuss the things after the first paragraph. If he concentrated on the first paragraph, that would explain why he thought it was a "nice" letter.

BTW Stella, thanks for the awesomely high praise!

Hi Jayne, sorry I've been gone all day and not here to help. You've already gotten all the great advice. The only thing I would add is that I wouldn't bring up the letter for a while. Maybe a week. I do know that some people, especially those who write rather than speak, can take a looooong time to think about stuff, digest it, and determine what they believe. You've dealt with him this long; you can wait another week before bringing it up. I think he'll appreciate you for it.

Hi jayne, wanted to let you know I read the TMI stuff.

Reading about your plan, I feel fear. I am nervous that a week from now this will not seem as important to you as it does today. I think an IC would provide a lot better accountability for you than we have given you. Something really similar happened a few months back, I think, and you were angry in the moment, and then he charmed you again. Or you let him charm you.

ears, can you talk more about the charming stuff? I must have glossed over that. I am concerned about the shoving, but for some reason I wasn't picking up on the rest. If you discuss it more, it might help Jayne see the danger. Maybe I was just impressed with the taking care of her that he did post-birth. IMO, that's pretty darn dedicated. Then again, reading about abusive personalities, I realize they are quite capable of that intense dedication, too.

Ears, you are right.

I hereby give you permission to hold me accountable. I don't yet know what you'd hold me accountable to do, exactly, cus I'm not sure what to do if he doesn't want to talk... but feel free to hold me accountable to whatever you want.

And yer right, my anger's already fading... and like you told me last time I think, anger can be useful, it tells us something.

cat, I just gave you the short version of how he took care of me after the kids were born.

I woulda died if not for him. Seriously. Not exaggerating one bit. Nurses can only do so much, they're so overworked with so many patients... there was a time when my fever would get up above 105 deg. F, so they put me on a mattress filled with ice water... only thing is, when my fever broke I needed to be warmed again. The nurses taught H how to use the machine, and he checked my temp every 10 minutes. The nurses would not have been able to do that.

There were plenty of other things the nurses taught him how to do, like change my ostomy bag. Yup.

Also, when I was in ICU, I was just barely hanging on, reserving all my strength just for me cus I didn't want my kids to not have a mom. When I'd wake up I'd call for him, and the nurses would get him (they wouldn't let him stay in the ICU room but he stayed in the waiting room 24/7). When he'd come in and hold my hand, I could feel his strength flowing into me... may sound weird, I know... OTOH when my sister was in the room it felt like she was sucking the strength outa me. I couldn't stand for my mom or my sister to be around me unless H was there. They thought he was being abusive/manipulative, but really, I asked him to.

For months, if there was a sound, I would throw up. My mom would be rustling around, doing stuff, and my stomach would be turning flip flops and I would just pray she'd either sit down or leave. But H just sat real still and quiet (so not being talkative was a good thing!), reading in a chair by my bed, 24 hours a day seriously, just waiting for me to start to throw up and he'd have to jump up and help, cus I was too weak to sit up.

The first time they sat me in a wheel chair I couldn't hold my head up, he had to. Even when I started walking, I was attached to a vacuum pump, a "wound vac", that he had to carry for me. All this time, they were holding his job for him, for about 8 or 9 months.

I really think he's a good guy, I don't think that's just an abused wife making excuses... he's not perfect, no, but his biggest flaw, not talking, actually was just what I needed when I most needed something.

I should keep that in mind I spose.

Hey, you are great! My friends have the "childbearing" drive and it is strong as any other drive. I dont happen to have it but i do care about kids.

One of my girlfriends calls her husband "My first husband". Because she expects to someday get divorced and then go on to a second or third husband!

Do you feel he is your lifetime husband?

I guess you have to put this husband as priority number one above the kids. It might be tough but you have to get the roles straight. The spouse comes in at number one. Then the kids are number two. In your life.

Both of you should learn to treat each other kindly and with respect and not talk sharply to one another. Who am I. an asian sage!? NO. I am a wife who had to eradicate my LB's in my marriage. I had bad LB habits. I had to change those completely. Because it was too hard on my husband and I to take.

You can learn to do this also.

Yes, I think he's my 2nd and last H. My MIL has told me that Alzheimer's runs in his family, so I fully expect to return the favor of care some day.

I do believe that the spouse should come before the kids, I believe that's best for the kids also. I think it isn't healthy for kids to think too much that the world revolves around them... and I think it puts too much pressure on them also, when an adult elevates them to such a status, gives them too much power. Kids need to be able to make mistakes, test boundaries, and be shown back to the right path. Kids aren't born knowing how to grow up to become responsible adults.

And I firmly believe that the absolute best gift you can give your kids, is to love their father/mother (the other parent). Even if you go through a nasty D, IMO you should never badmouth the other parent to the child - beyond what they may need to know to protect themselves. If you badmouth their dad e.g., you are badmouthing a part of them... if you say their dad is scum, that plants a little seed of doubt, are they destined to grow up to be scum?

Of course, when safety is concerned, all bets are off. So I struggle sometimes with letting H parent the kids as a father does and not as a mother, and showing the kids a united front (they need that security, to be able to think the world is orderly, and the folks in control know what they're doing; as opposed to it being up to a whim, and they have the power to play one parent against the other) ... vs. stepping in when H has stepped over the line that divides "fathers are tougher than mothers" from abusive behavior.


This is probably my biggest LB, by far. I'm just simply harsh-speaking. I want to change that.

Cat, like you and I talked about how unsettling it is when your spouse doesn't approve of you. To me, I filtered that like I was on his "[censored] list," the list of folks that he showed no respect for. My feeling to own. I chose to tolerate that.

So, I went from feeling like that, to seeing H make small gestures - a hug, a cup of coffee, wow, all was forgiven on my side. Because I needed that SO bad, and was willing to tolerate a lot to stay in that state, where I was "in" with him again. None of the rest of what was bothering me felt as relevant as staying in his good graces.

But that was so false. I found I was sacrificing our chance at a future for a little peace today.

Jayne, I think there's a big reason that everyone's talking to mys about religion on her thread. Because the antidote to this is faith in God. In Alanon, they also say a Higher Power, or God as we understood Him. Because some people have a hard time with just one picture of God, and that's totally okay.

An alternative to holding up our spouse as Higher Power that doesn't require a belief in a Creator is Stosny's concept of Core Value, and I think that's a great way to think of how we were made. Imagine you were stranded out in the desert, with a small child, with only enough water for two days, and you don't know when help is coming. It may come now, and it may come when it is too late. The child is crying from thirst. Do you share your water, or keep it to yourself?

Everyone says they would share the water, even folks in prison for horrible crimes. That is our Core Value. And that book goes more into Core Value, how when conflict strikes, to remember that child in the desert, and act from that value. Improve, Connect, Appreciate or Protect.

Jayne, I agree that your H is a great man. I do have great hope for you being able to recover this. But you need a Plan. Because the temptation is to go back to accepting unnacceptable behavior in your marriage. What do you think about an MB weekend?

I gotta run now, we're about to leave for the cartrip. Thank you to everyone for your thoughts and advice, and I'm thinking about what everyone has said. ears and soolee I'll try to reply when we get there, or in a couple days maybe after the interviews.

Thanks everyone, you guys are great!

Hi Jayne, are you still on the road? How are things going?

Thanks for asking, cat!

Well right now I'm feeling down... yes we're still on the road, the job stuff has gone great. But today has been difficult. DS6b and I have a touch of diarhea, maybe the crab legs we ate last night and no one else ate. Not so bad for me, but catastrophic for a little kid who had to put up with doing what daddy wants all day, the promise to go swimming being postponed again and again, and then by the time we finally can go swimming, he's sick and can't go.

Long story, but the short version is that at dinner in a restaurant, 6a and 6b were both in the bathroom at the same time - bad idea, I tried to get 6a out before 6b went in, but short of me walking into the men's room and/or yelling loudly, it wasn't gonna happen. I asked H 3 times to go check on them. He finally did when we heard 6b yelling. Seems 6a "used his shirt for a towel". But then 6b was still taking a really long time, our food had arrived and his was getting cold. Again I asked H to check on 6b. He didn't at first, then did reluctantly, and came back and said he was fine. After another 10 minutes or so, I went and called through the door. 6b was crying, had had a huge accident, he said it was cus 6a was teasing him and using his shirt for a towel and wouldn't leave, and by the time he left it was too late, 6b had had an accident. And it was everywhere. I was in there with him about 20 minutes, and was pretty mad at H when I came out. I told him in a low tone of voice that he should've gone and checked on them when I asked - I know, not the MB way to handle things. Well H got mad and spoke in a louder tone of voice for several minutes and I just looked at him with no expression. When he finally wound down I said "Are you done?" and he said "For now."

So. I'm not handling things well. But I no longer think that's an excuse for his behavior. I'm not the type to walk on eggshells. I'll keep trying to change my behavior for the better, just cus I want to, but I feel pretty withdrawn.

So tell me, how should I have handled it? Given that my emotion was anger. Maybe I shouldn't have blamed anyone, but I was feeling angry whether or not I should have. What should I have done and what would've been a better way for me to handle my anger?

Thanks for asking. I wasn't sure if I was gonna post this or not, until you asked.

You asked your H to go in, he declined. I haven't been in that situation, but this is what I would have planned for the next time. Ask H, and then if he declines, do what you need to do. Ask a waiter to please go in and check on them, because you're concerned that they are in there alone for so long.

I used to feel SO overwhelmingly trapped in situations where I felt like I needed to keep in H's good graces. I don't. That's control and manipulation, and I'm not going to let that kill my marriage anymore. I am not at anyone else's mercy. There are many other people who have been willing to help me.

My H used to get really mad when I did that, but I know I have checked my intent. I learned that my H does have control of his behavior, and won't mistreat me out in public. That's why it's important when you get home to plan plenty of FC time with other people, too, so you can see your H at his best, let him make some deposits, too.

That kind of reminds me of when I ask my H to do something and he won't, and then I start asking someone else, like hiring a carpenter to do something I'm not talented enough to do, and H won't do. Just the thought of my bringing in someone else to do what he should have done is enough to get him off his butt and doing it.

So I guess I also would have gone to a waiter and asked him to help. A good reminder to your H that he's not supporting you, without you having to say so.

In my family, my H doesn't jump in when I get outside help. He used to say that my concerns were irrational, so he didn't want anything to do with them. His choice. I will address my concerns, anyway. Because I'm worth protecting.

That is a good idea. I think I'd feel too embarrassed to do something like that though. Is that protecting him or covering for him?

Also, in this case all the servers were girls and the owner was a woman. All the customers were women too except for one old man. In hind sight I wish I'd just gone in myself. That's what I ended up doing anyway, and since almost everyone was a woman it probably was ok. I ended up being in there about 20 minutes anyway. Being in there for one minute of prevention would've been less obtrusive.

If you remember, I posted about a similar argument on another road trip about a year ago. This has been a not-infrequent source of conflict. I think I'm gonna try to be less hesitant about entering men's rooms, if I am pretty sure there's no men in there. How's that sound?

I re-read Dr. Harley's article on resentment. It's mostly geared toward infidelity but I thought it might have some useful info. I can't tell if I'm unwisely fueling resentment or if I'm wisely trying to remember to have no expectations of H.

Control and manipulation on his part, or yours? Yes, overwhelmingly trapped, that's how I feel in such situations. Like, it's my duty to protect my kids, and I know something needs to be done, and it seems like I'm not able to do it and H doesn't believe me without my LBing. I asked him three times, but I did it respectfully.

There were two other times yesterday that I suggested doing things a certain way, and he just dismissed what I was saying. Those two times I kept talking, explaining my reasons, even though I knew he didn't want to hear them. Each of those times he ended up doing it my way - without acknowledging anything.

I'm so tired of having to convince him of every single thing I suggest. It seems to me that he automatically dismisses whatever I say. If I feel strongly enough that I'm right, I can try to convince him, but I know he doesn't want to hear it so I don't do it unless I'm pretty sure what I'm suggesting is more efficient or is really needed, etc. I feel like there's times that I was right and should've stood my ground more, like last night in the restaurant. But I don't like the trying to convince him - it feels like I have no power, I'm at the mercy of his whims, and I'm LBing when I keep talking when he doesn't want to hear it.

I feel like when I'm the only woman in a meeting and my suggestion isn't heard, and after 15 minutes a guy brings up my exact same suggestion and everyone loves it. This really happens, and I think maybe the guys don't even realize it happens. It even happened in a meeting discussing promoting diversity. The whole room saw it, except the man doing it.

I don't know if H would jump in and do something if I asked someone else to do it. I suspect he'd just sit back and let the other person do it. He has this expression that to me seems like a smug smile.

That sounds like ra good soluton, going in yoruself. The point is to do what you have to do to address your concerns so you don't resent H for your feeling of not being taken care of. Because you have the power to do that.

Do you still have the article open for the link? Otherwise I can go look it up. It sounds like a good one to reread!

The link to the resentment article is
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5062_qa.html

My problem is remembering that I can/should handle some things myself. Especially when it comes to going into the men's room, but it also happens in other situations where for some reason or another I have in my mind that that is in H's area, not mine.

I guess in a sense I need *more* IB, huh? Does that make sense?