What do you mean, letting go of the response?

Letting go of the outcome, like acting to my value, and letting go of my anxiety about the other person's actions.

For example, I went to visit my mom last night, and she was laying into my brother and sister, who I was there to pick up. My brother and sister were like, Mom, why do you have to do this? Why don't you just stop it? I validated my mom's concern. My brother is planning to sign up for a technical school and wanted her to sign up for an education loan. Before he's checked out the local public school's offerings, that may be affordable to him without her taking out a loan on his behald.

I understand her concern that my brother is in over his head. But if she talks to him like she has no confidence in him, like she has to protect him from the recruter, then her goal is to take him from following that guy's plan to hers. Instead, how would she feel about talking to him as an equal, so he would feel empowered to ask questions and get the informaiton he needs to make an informed decision?

She answered something like, "But he's too stupid to do that." I let go of the response, said my goodbye, and waited outside for my borther and sister while they finished packing. I let go of the outcome. I did what I could, today.

ezb, there is a Divorced forum here, too, with others who have been through the pain of an unwanted divorce. I remember specifically TheTallMan, Seabird, booka, and EyesOnthePrize

I feel thats what I did earlier yesterday. I need to do it with a lot more things. Inspite of her saying it was over and we were done she did also add that "for now". I let go of that over part last night and made the choice to call her to talk. We talked a lot about the past and some about the present but I feel it was very productive and thanked her for the time. The door is still open as far as I'm concerned. The best thing I can do is get my stress managed and I'm formulating a plan on that.

One thing I obviously can't do is to let go of the boards here. I feel it has helped me and will continue to do so in ways I do implement.

I disagree but I see your point.

I feel the reason our marriage became what it was was because I was self centered, selfish and became manipulating. I took away the love I promised and I validated in my mind and found reasons. I stopped being a giver at all (I found MY ways to say I was giving) and I only took. I met none of her EN's even though I thought I was showing my love. Showing my love the way I wanted and not the way of her love languages. I became insecure because I stopped giving the love that she needed. I thought I found ways to bring that back but they were taker ways and not equal or giver ways. She still stuck by me for a long time and I thank her for that. She feels I want to run the house. I understand what gives her that feeling. That is not a marriage or relationship I truly want in my heart or mind. It's a fantasy and not a reality.

Ezb...


Point of clarification for me, please. You and Bunny were swinging prior to your wedding, were you not?

I hear you taking all the responsibility for the toxicity in your marriage...which I also had to do in my own mind to get to the reality I was only half...I wanted it to be all my fault so it would be in all my power to change, heal, repair and make new. That was my control payoff, which wasn't reality, seemed new, except it was still me taking more of what wasn't mine, and not really owning what was...same game seemed different.

Until Alanon.

Met none of her ENs...again, you can use the "none, always, never, nothing, everythings" as guides to where you're hiding reality from yourself. Are you saying you didn't meet her need for FS, DS, attention, approval, appreciation, admiration, RC, SF?

I'm glad you're seeing your fantasy choices...and look forward to hear what was behind them.

LA

Yes we were.



I take responsibilty for my half of the toxicity. I have yet to find a way to be understood and heard for my feelings on things she did also without it coming out as manipulating or trying to turn it around. I do feel I'm owning what was mine and I do feel that there is more understanding and listening I need to do.



FS= No I was not. I betrayed her.
DS= Darling son? Not sure what you mean.
attention= I gave attention only when I wanted to and not when she needed or assked for it.
approval= I did. I could have done much more.
appreciation= I very much appreciated her. I did not show that in ways that she saw it as being appreciated.
admiration= I have always admired her for many things.
RC= recreational contact? We did things together only much more when we first met and into when she moved in. We stopped doing that. She had asked a few times. I was too self centered to want to.
SF= This was awesome at first. Has not been for a long time. There were a few issues that caused all of that and we went over a few of those things last night. Still needs more work to be understood.



Greed, self centeredness, control, power, domination. I'm sure I could add a few more words in there but that is the jest of it.



EDIT: SF= This was awesome at first. Has not been for a long time. There were a few issues that caused all of that and we went over a few of those things last night.


I feel caused is the wrong word to use. The things should not have caused the SF to go away. They should have brought us closer emotionally. The SF would have been much stronger if that would have happened. My self centeredness was my half that it didn't.

Not sure if you missed me asking or not LA but could you please explain what you meant by this? Thank you.

Ezb,

Thank you for your response.


Stop looking for a way to be understood. Takes your focus away from understanding first, changes your priority to making it after being understood.

Understanding her stuff isn't agreement, or taking it in and making it fact. It's a process which includes acknowledging, validating and accepting it's hers. Really hers.

Understanding is seeing her choices, her actions, also as hers, being about her...accepting you had no real control, could not really manipulate or make, really seeing your true limits...which does not excuse a single choice, word or belief you had or have. It's to separate her stuff from actions...and actions (choices) are reality...just like separating fantasy from reality...our wishfulness from our responsibility.

When we focus on getting ourselves understood...tit for tat...giving to get...we are participating in fantasy...and yeah, feels real. It's a signal, that urge...listen to it...it's saying, "Hey, your focus is over there again!!! What's your payoff that you want so badly?" Trace, know and understand YOURSELF.

Understanding is part of the two-way street...doesn't go just one way. I think you're getting the urge at not being understood from the inside of you, about you...again, as an act of love from self.

So do more understanding and listening to yourself inside...hear your self-image when it speaks, craves, hates...loves...for it isn't really you...listen to you to know...another part of our mandate to know and be known, 'k?


FS - Financial Security. Are you saying also betrayed Bunny financially?

DS - Domestic Service.

Meeting ENs...though you used your attention, at times, to manipulate and control, there were also times you gave her your attention as an act of love. I'm sure of it. Know why? Because your physical presence, presence of mind, heart and spirit were there...she was your payoff...you don't bother to control, manipulate, get someone else to keep you safe from abandoning you if they are not your payoff.

Something to sit with...see how murky it can all get...simple lines and really complex structures? You nailed your intent as being of primary importance...what commitment have you made to yourself to change from what you used to do? What new steps are you taking?

Again, about you, not dependent on her, 'k? Your changes are not dependent on anyone but you...and yes, they do affect everyone.

Are you saying that meeting her EN of appreciation wasn't possible, therefore you met none of her ENs? Or are you saying you did express appreciation (would help me to know what actions represent expression of appreciation to you) and that you now don't count it because she didn't?

Maybe separating your appreciation itself might help...appreciation for her stuff...a statement, a belief...a feeling she might have had...or statement of appreciation for her choice of actions or words expressing her beliefs, her perception?

Or appreciation for her sharing her stuff and acting from her love?

You can look at what you did/didn't do in the past and sort through it to help you in your choices today, so please include what hit your gratitude back then and what would hit it now? Same for your choice of expressing your gratitude.

Meeting our EN for admiration is not being admired...it's sharing when we are admiring...words of affirmation. We can love, admire, feel grateful, adoring, and in love...without expression, it meants no ENs, really. Easy to experience life as if our feelings meets others' ENs, though.

Good to know--if that's what you're saying.

RC - Recreational Companionship...yes, doing recreational activities together. Dates...experiencing new together in recreational ways...being playmates and teammates...the act of doing this expresses and reminds we are allies, we are in this together. I wondered how much of this expression was lost in the lifestyle? How this bonding is already available to everyone, without adding others into your marriage, and when we don't do it, we cut off healthy experiences through unhealthy ones?

As for SF...was awesome once...so you did meet her EN for SF...does that mean your answer is that your "I met none of her ENs" was indeed overstatement, hyperbole, not real?

What was behind your choosing to believe the "none"? What was your payoff?


What was your payoff in greed? Were you really self-centered or were you falsely self-soothing, and if so, from what? Fake control, power and domination gave you a false what, exactly? When you really get the fantasy in greed, self-centeredness, control, power and domination, then you'll understand the very real consequences of those...and know yourself better...which will stop the constant self-rejection...especially when you find it built-into the actions you took...how they were really self-rejecting all along...so they insured you would be right, not married.

LA

Ok here's something from our past that is a very good example of miscommunication and misunderstanding that hindered our SF. I will not go into detail what it exactly was. There was a health issue. This issue "caused" many things. (I put the word caused in quotations because I feel it should not have caused these things to happen and it was something that if proper communication and understanding were to happen then it would have brought us closer together and not further apart).

Not in any particular order but it "caused":

Low self asteem.
Low sex drives between us.
Me feeling guilty if I mentioned it because I feel it would be viewed as cutting down or degrading. I felt it would be that also due to poor communication.
Poor communication.
Lack of understanding.
Lack of bonding.
Self centeredness.


I can add to this list I'm sure and I'm sure someone else could also and I welcome the input.

I thought that was something else due to the listing I looked up. Financial was not an issue with us. Neither of us is or was looking for or needing material things.


I feel I could have done much more in this area. We did not define duties and that should have been done. At first it was great we worked together well. I lost sight of my half. We should have worked together to define it though.



Very good point.



I have the 12 step program listed in the front of this thread and have been making additions to it when I realize I'm being manipulating and control. Looking for triggers and writing them down. One trigger I have found is when I'm anxious or panicky. Another is when I dwell on something and believe I have an answer to a problem or something I want to convey.



It was possible. I still count the things I did do. That does not mean it will be counted by her feelings and I choose to show an act of love to convey that appreciation in a way her love languages understand.


Many ways of appreciation for things. One would be for watching my kids when I had to work. I always (EDIT: should be started to assume) assumed it would be done. I did ask at first. I felt at times it was something that would cause an issue and I feared having to say it. Her actions did not make me fear that I feel.


I did not show appreciation for her sharing her stuff. I did not understand how to listen. I feel I do much better at it now and still have work to do.


Words of Affirmation with Physical Touch has always been mine top love language. That shows me gratitude. Acts of service is right behind that.

Or are you meaning my gratitude to her?



Yes it did get lost. I felt us doing it together was recreational in a way. We were members at a nudist camp and did not play 24/7 and would spend alone time together while there.



Good point. It was time frame related.


Guilt on my part. Trying to show understanding.



Getting things I wanted.


I feel it was somewhere in between. As far needs and wants being met.


False pride and false sense of security.

Time to go for the weekend. Thanks again everyone.

One really disturbing fact about our phone conversation last night. She said someone was moving things on her patio. This disturbs me even more because of what her sister went thru. I have never and will never go to where she lives without her invite. I will never follow her not will I hire a PI.

Have a great weekend, Ezb...I'm replying now so I won't forget to on Monday:


We all have an EN for FS...because it represents survival security...we need food, shelter and clothes...hence, material things. You know there are people who don't have these physical needs met...and as you can see, they also represent an EN...just like sex really is an EN...

When finances aren't an issue it means your EN is being met well...not even on the radar...and if you were both, while married, to lose your jobs, your home, your cars, and had no food, it might well jump to both of your #1 ENs spots, in my experience.

We were poor (on all poverty charts) for the first ten years of our marriage...and we struggled. My FS jumped up and down...down when I was grateful that though my DH didn't earn as much as I wanted, he was great at steady employment. No gaps in his earning (so consistency can compensate for level of income at times). Then he lost his job.

Money can stress couples...both as survival fear (we're going to die alone and penniless...look at how they are linked) and emotionally symbolic of relationship success, balance, security and reliability. Not about material things...which are important SYMBOLS of gifts as a love language.

I challenged you to see where your belief that you met none of her ENs was bogus, a self-lie and for you to see reality separate from your fantasy. I don't hear you really considering the ENs as Harley has given them...and so now, I don't believe you really comprehend the LBs and their importance, either.

They are linked. They are symbols. I hear you arguing...and again, gotta ask...if you want to experience life as right more than loved, be brave and tell me so. I perceive that's what you want most, your heart's desire...to be right (which represents safe, solid, important, better than to exist and survive...and you're right...having that as your most important EN will give you that life experience...and it cannot give you the experience of being loved, accepted, respected and valued. What a trade off. It's awful. I know 'cuz I lived it.

I will respect your choice. You do choose your life and how you experience it. Your power. I won't be able to add anything to what you already know...you know how to live to be right; I'm here to show you how to live to be married.

That's my intent...doesn't mean that will be your outcome.

I'm really frustrated reading your answers to my post, so I think I'm not going to respond further. Don't want to cross my boundary and post reactively...and since I've posted enough to not cross my boundary of honesty, I think I'll end here.

LA

I have a little time before the kids get here and I believe I hear you LA telling me to grow a set, is that correct?

Well here are the positives I have done on these things.




Financially speaking I have worked my tail off. All last summer alone I worked 13 days on and 1 day off with 10 of the 13 days being 11.5 hrs a day.
I removed my name for consideration of a promotion (nothing monetary included) because it would be more stressful on me and last I held that position it spilled over into bringing the stress home with me.


Other acts of service I did were cleaning a path in the snow every morning for her to her car. Cleaning off her windows every time and clearing a path for the dogs so when she got up she didn't have to worry about that.
Calling her every morning before she left for work to say good morning and calling her everyday on lunch to say hello, see how her day was going and to ask what she wanted for dinner.
Most every day I did the cooking.
I took care of the yard and every repair I could in order to save money.
I'd send flowers to her work and it made everyone there jealous every time I did.
I met her one time for a lunch time quickie and everyone was envious of her.
I'd kiss her goodbye every morning and tell her I loved her many times thruought the day.
I'd buy her gifts when I saw something special at the store that I thought she would like.
I watched her favorite TV shows, sometimes when I would rather be watching something else.
She asked me to dance with her more and I did.
I would make breakfast on the weekends.

These were a lot of the ways I conveyed my love to her.



Yes it was an overstatement. I not only met them before all the problems started I exceeded them.



I'm focusing on the word fake now. She chose to meet my needs and EN's without true control. She chose to do that out of an act of love towards me. I chose not to no longer meet her EN's and act on them as an act of love.

I've been thinking about that and it does change the outlook seeing things that way as opposed to control.

EDIT: I want to add that I still do view it as a form of control though.

I welcome your input and your posts on this thread. I just do not want it to be viewed as a form of contact on NC days.

Thats just it LA I don't mean to argue. I don't mean to want to be right. I don't understand what the actions and words (how to put them) and the difference between the 2. I just want to understand and be understood. I don't care to be right. I care to compromise. I know compromise isn't always possible but when you can't compromise then which way do you go?

I have the book LB. I will start reading that also. I haven't fully understood the importance of them in relation to us. At times I have put my needs and wants above LB's. It's a struggle to learn to put them in practice with all that is going on. Not an excuse, just a struggle in changing. As far as EN's as the Harley's describe no I do not understand that as they put it. Bunny had filled out the EN sheet and I have it and em willing to meet those needs. I have been.

I know I exsist without bunny. I know I can be a separate human. I know it doesn't mean thats what I want. It's not what I want. I want to exsist with her. I do love her behond anything I had understood.

There was a time when we were not FS. When we first got together it was a mess. We worked hard to climb out of that mess. I'm so proud of that because we did it together and it strengthened my bond to her. It made me feel on top of the world that we did it, together. First time I have had that feeling in my life. It was a huge payoff for me and a wonderful feeling.

She mentioned the other night how hard it was for her to sit on the couch she has. I want to understand that. I know why she said it. We spent so many times cuddling on that couch. Watching our favorite programs. I began to like certain shows just because she enjoyed them. It was a payoff for me to share that with her. It was a payoff for me to go see lighthouses. It was acting on my love for her to do those things. It got me off to see her smile and feel the warmth when we did those things. I long for those days and I know she does too. I pray someday I can have that opportunity again.