MrsE,

I believe you nailed that you are in a resentment fog. Good catch.

Would rephrasing help for clarity, for clearing your fog?


You don't choose to value anything (not one thing) EWS does right now. You dod not choose to love him nor act from your love right now. You do not choose to appreciate his acts of love right now, either. You choose to resent right now. You choose to dwell in past injuries while you are not being injured right now.

So you're choosing to not experience the present, the right now?

And you choose to see EWS as the cause of your stuff. Which makes him the cause, control and cure for your feelings...which aren't his...they are yours, coming from you, about you from your beliefs. You're choosing to make his past actions the cause of your resentment today. Right now.

Sounds really mean to do to yourelf, these choices...what did you do that was so bad as to deserve this depth of punishment?

You created and nurtured your own resentment as a wall to justify your choices...and look where your resentment got you? You grew it into entitlement and an affair. That really hurt you terribly, too. Took away your integrity, violated your vows, even who you thought you were...and yet, you created and grew resentment long before the A, chose to dwell on the then past, too, and stab yourself again and again with what your H did then and before.

When is your time for right now? EWS isn't changing for you, finally. He's working on his emotions, choosing to react to them, justify and live backwards...he's revoked his permission to act out and doesn't right now. He has made new boundaries and boundary enforcements (which is what I hope he shares soon with us) for his choice to react not act. Yes, this results in love for the marriage, honoring it--everything he does for himself does that...changes his half of the marriage.

What about you doing the same? You are reacting to your resentment, acting it out, blocking love deposits and not making any in his bank, either. You are choosing to take a drug, a poison, over and over again and harm yourself, giving you horrible emotions as a result. You're doing that.

Live forwards, EWS family. Define your own code of conduct and hold yourself to it by acting from it. Not your feelings. Act from your code and the feelings, the experience you give yourself, will follow.

Okay to feel anger...not act it out or in. Talking about your feelings IS expressing them. Doesn't take demonstrating them.

Okay to feel resentment and not act to create more of it. Stop choosing that which you know you will resent. Stop stabbing yourself...makes me wanna call Emotional 911 or something. Brings to me anew what I did for decades. Not noble...harmful and causing harm to others. That's your choices right now...you are choosing to harm your marriage (and your marriage hasn't caused a moment's resentment, love, cruelty or happiness for you). Right now.

What a great distraction travelling 48 weeks out of the year would be to not grow in a real relationship, to hide from yourself, and fix your resentment by ignoring your power and limits in your marriage. Like a fantasy...no responsibilty...and yet, it's inherent. In those motel and hotel rooms at night, you will hear all you did to damage and destroy your marriage...your half will come to you...your choices...and the unbelievable weight of remorse may feel like a boulder crushing your chest...and you may cry alone for a long time. For then, you cannot go back, and never could...though you freely went back in your mind to the past which is unchangeable...and you won't be able to repair, change or fix a single thing. No amends can be made by you. You locked yourself in.

EWS is your real partner in this life. And you both lacked partnering knowledge and skills. You have them now. You have Harley's boundaries of care, time, protection, radical honesty, and policy of joint agreement. There is no other EWS out there...who has knows you in great times and horrific ones, knows what you've done and not done, how you love and hate, how you react to this or that, how you long and deny...he knows you like no other can in this life. And you know him. All of him...

Why not choose to introduce your true self to your right now, and get to know his true self, right now? Not these self-images you've forged, fabricated, patched, changed back and forth from tit for tat and giving to get? Why not go into the third stage of marriage and get blown away by reality, real selves right now?

Seems a much more self-loving choice than pursuing more of your self-image in new ways to continue harming your self, as you've done since you chose to recreate what by God is a masterpiece already.

If money is what you choose to control you, then see it as the emotional need it represents...security, feeling loved, freedom, self-esteem and self-respect. Tell me what it represents for you, why you do harm and healing through it, with it, and because of it, to yourself, your partner, your marriage and your children...is it a real payoff for you, or a whole lot of false ones? You duped yourself into an A before...how are you rebuilding your trust from that self-deceit?

Using your brother as a buffer, meeting your ENs in place of your H, between you and your real partner is more fantasy. Your brother does as much harm as help in your marriage. He's human. We all do. If you had to choose between your brother and your marriage, would you choose your brother (an able adult whom you are helping to deprive him of living true to his self, too, as you are)?

Until death. You married your brother. You've got a lot of emotional incest going on and have your whole life. He's a saint to you so you aspire to be a saint...only real saints are those who act from God's will. The rest of us are imposters, using our Giver as God and being controlled by our Takers. We make ourselves slaves to fantasy. For every single act you've taken that you expected appreciation, admiration, attention for...you lied to yourself as a fraud. You gave to get...so does your brother...quid pro quo.

We wouldn't have the amount of divorces in this country if not for incestuous relationships, either.

When you're on the road for 48 weeks, you aren't the favorite grandma or mother...you aren't even there for anyone else but yourself. Might be just the thing for you. Are you talking your brother on the road with you, too?

I don't think your grandchildren will have you as favorite grandma when they know how you crushed pain into your BH and did not amend or take the path of redemption. For they know what you did to him, you'll do to them, too. You will justify their abandonment, resenting them for not appreciating you enough, and they will know fraud when they see it...takes time...for you are living as your own grandmother and mother did...handing it down...becomes your legacy of resentment...and they will feel powerful when YOU make them feel...like your kids...you will be the cause, control and cure for their stuff...even as their spouses are...what will you tell your children about marriage when they have affairs and when they divorce?

I'm going off on you for all my own stuff. Same questions I've asked myself from that place you put yourself in from your own choices. So have I chosen. It's a lousy place to make choices from...resentment is fantasy hardened into concrete...false strength and a lie for clarity...feels real and it crumbles, believe me.

Until you get the poison out of you, all that you created in yourself, you won't make healthy choices and those will ripple and do harm for generations. Even amending now won't change a lot of it...and you'll see and know and identify it as you see your children's and their children's lives unfold. It's is hell on earth once you know better.

And you already know better, MrsE. You do.

LA

LA you are absolutely correct in my changes. I have made these changes out of respect for myself. The behavior patterns of the past was self destructive. This led to anger and resentment in my life towards everyone around me. I have had no boundaries for a long time. The book I am reading right now deals with anger and resentment. This book has helped me a great deal and helped me realize that I am a good person. It has helped me understand I have value and what those values are. The anger and resentment is caused from losing sight of these values within myself. In turn restoring my values has led me to better relations with my immediate family.

Everyday I have to remind myself of 4 things that display my renewed sense of value as a human being. They are: Improve, Appreciate, Connect, and Protect. These 4 words is what I practice everyday in all aspects of my life. When I do them they make me feel better. When I feel better then the people around me feel better. They are also what drives me to enforce boundaries on myself. I could not practice these 4 words until I no longer felt the feelings of being inadequate, unlovable and devalued. These 3 feelings were driving my anger and resentment. I have learned to feel adequate, lovable, and valuable. When I feel anxiety come on I have to reconnect with my inner values to calm me down. This took a while to achieve. My level of anxiety goes down everyday. Maybe I shouldn't say the level of anxiety is fading but more so the instances of anxiety are lessening day by day.

The first boundaries I have placed on myself was to get away from the current friends I have. They do not share in the same values I do. In fact they never shared in the same values I did. I merely chose to forgo my values to have people surround me that I felt superior to. The problem was they drug me down to their level. The next boundary I set was to make sure my family comes first. Before my needs and for sure the needs of non-family members. The next boundary was to respect and value my wife. I had respect and value for her for a long time and then lost all respect for her. I have chosen these boundaries because they were the most important to me in my healing process. These boundaries improve my inner value. Within these main boundaries are also subsets of boundaries that have to be in place to maintain the overall well-being of myself and others around me. As far as marital boundaries go I have not set these because I feel marital boundaries should be set as a mutually enthusiastic agreement between my wife and I. These unmet marital boundaries are my anxiety problems that crop up from time to time.

There is one other boundary I have set and is the most important to me. That is my repentance. This is without a doubt the single biggest event that has caused the changes within myself. Without this renewed faith in Jesus and God I would still have the same feelings of inadequacy, being unlovable and down right worthless. I have had affirmations that have guided me along the way of this troubling time. The biggest message I have received is patience. I am being much more patient than I ever have in my life. Its very difficult to allow the time that is needed to heal our relationship. But time is what it needs. I am willing to take that time and Improve, Appreciate, Connect and Protect all aspects of my life. Hopefully and by the grace of God time will heal our marriage by allowing me the time to show I really have changed.

I hope that may have answered some of your question LA.


Something happened last night after an evening out with my W that I feel caused her grief once again with our M. When we came home last night there was a car parked in our driveway I had never seen before. This caused me concern with good reason. Some one was at my house I did not know or know was going to be at my house. I did know that it may be my oldest daughters friends. Without going into detail most of my daughters friends are not welcome at my house. Without a doubt her, I suppose, boyfriend is not welcome here and I have told my daughter as much. My W has also agreed he is not welcome here. When I got into the house my daughter met me. Without me saying a word she said these people were leaving. At this point I still had no idea who was here and didn't find out until this morning that her boyfriend was one of them. She did not react fast enough for me. Remember Improve, Appreciate, Connect and Protect? My protect mode kicked in big time. For one my 2 year old grandchild was at our house(my oldest daughters daughter). So I go out in my backyard and order everyone off my property. Trust me on this most people would not want these people near their family. I also found out this morning they were up to no good. My son was also in this group and in the darkness I could not see him and he also got escorted out the gate. I then came back inside and confronted my daughter. She tried to apologize for it but it is a repeat pattern of hers and being 23 she knows I did not want her friends at my house especially when I am not there nor know they are coming to my house.

What happened next was with my W. She told me I was just like her Dad when he would come home and run her friends off. I could tell she was upset with me and how I handled the situation. I felt the situation warranted being stern and forceful with the crowd I was dealing with. I felt threatened when I told them once to leave in a calm fashion. They just stood and looked at me and didn't make a move. I then had to get a little louder and sterner with them to make them move. Its just me and a couple thugs in a dark backyard. I have been told these people carry weapons sometimes. I did what I felt was necessary to protect my family and property. If that is construed as an AO then so be it. I wouldn't have done it any differently no matter how much anger management or counseling I had.

If your 23 year old daughter knows that these people are not welcome on your property, then why did she allow them to be there? This doesn't make sense.

If her friends carry weapons and none of them are to be at your home, she owes it to you to respect that rule, or move out.

Are any of her friends welcome at your home?

It doesn't make sense to me either, Believer. I believe it is just a lack of respect for herself and the other members of the household. She comes and goes from our house. I have used tough love on her before and made her leave the house. I always have hope that she has also changed when she comes back around. But this time just like all the rest is the same lies and deceit. She use to have friends I would let come over. But those friends have abandoned her for good reason. She is left with the dregs of society now and they are not welcome at my house. At least my bro-in-law was appreciative of my efforts last night and was glad I ran them off. I would also add that a few months prior I may have allowed my daughter to tell them to leave. And I almost allowed that trend to continue and her telling them to leave would have meant nothing to these people. With a renewed sense of self-importance I did the dirty work that needed to be done. I am confident I won't see these people at my house again. I will say these two men were very apologetic to me for being at my house without my permission. It meant nothing to me knowing who they are and what they stand for.

Is the Mrs. in agreement with not allowing these people at your home, or is she enabling your daughter? Sorry, but I am a hardline person. I work all day to have a nice home, and anyone who chooses to live in my home follows my rules. If they don't think that is fair, they have the option to live on their own.

Sounds like you have a number of people whose actions are causing problems in your life.

Yes Believer the Mrs. in agreement with not allowing my daughter's current supposed boyfriend over. Yes things have spiraled out of control over here. It is being very difficult to right the ship. That is a good analogy of how I feel. In a stormy sea of ups and downs. Its very hard to help my daughter because at the slightest questioning of her integrity and she leaves the house. She is in complete denial of life itself. She herself is feeling inadequate, unlovable and devalued. I tell her I love her and care what is going on in her life. At times that gets her through but she feels abandoned by her family. Her sisters want nothing to do with her. Her brother does have sympathy for her at times and other times not. I have asked that her siblings forgive her for her actions. I try to make them understand she is having problems and she is not herself. It has just been within the last 2-3 years she has led a self destructive life.

When EWS and I filled out our EN questionnaire my #1 was financial support. Over the 25 years of marriage this has been a serious problem for me. I feel that too often I have had to carry the entire weight on my shoulders. In March of 07 EWS started a new company. When he quit his job to do this we were already without a car and at least 3 month behind in house payments. We did not discuss this, he simply did it and then told me.
By late July we were in serious financial troubles. I settled a lawsuit and considered taking the $10,000.00 and leaving EWS. But instead gave him the money to help both his business and our family as he decided. At the same time EWS borrowed $2,800.00 from his mother. I also borrowed $4,000.00 on and off on a signature loan with high interest.
In April EWS had to borrow $5,000.00 from his brother to pay our house payment again. Finally, last Friday I needed to again borrow money for our family. This has caused me to return to the depression I was feeling before. Also, I fell down the stairs today, but felt with such money problems I could not go to the hospital. This is causing a real LB for me again.

Yes, you need him to meet your need for financial support. All of these unilateral decisions are killing your marriage. MB talks about the necessity of POJA, policy of joint agreement, where both parties need to enthusiastically agree before any decisions are made.

But you must accept some of the blame. You know that he has not made good financial decisions and yet you keep letting him make them. What is up with that?

When a person gets to a point in their career where there is no longer room for advancement changes sometimes need to take place. I have gone back to school many times to change my career field. The last time was to go into the nursing field. Schooling never worked due to family or job commitments. So I tried opening a business on my own the first time. I struggled at times a lot due to the nature of the construction industry. I had as many as 12 employees at one time. My then business partner was my brother. He was the financier of the operation when it began. He later then went on to open a restaurant of his own. When this restaurant failed he came back to me for money and quickly drained the bank account of our construction company. At first I was able to stop the bleeding by convincing the bank what he was doing. But since he was the president of the company he was able to secure getting back into the account and finished off the rest of the money. This also left me in a hole with the IRS for employee taxes. I had just turned things around when this happened. I completely gave up hope at that time. The IRS eventually caught up with me and garnished my wages which in turn led to the first foreclosure proceedings. But eventually the IRS was handled and all monies paid.

After this failed business attempt I went back to work as an employee with a company. There was no future what so ever in this company. So once again I was at the proverbial brick wall. I decided then again I wanted back into business for myself and made a wrong partner decision again. So now I am wanting to go back and get a job again to help put us back on a financial footing. But now I am being told by my W if I go back and get a job she would leave me for sure. That I needed to start my own business again and do it right. With two failed business attempts it doesn't scare me to try again. Third time is the charm right? But I was basing my decision to get a job on my W's comments about starting a business. I am going to end my relationship with my partner as soon as possible and get back to running yet another business. This is my W's decision and I am agreeing to do this. Not enthusiastically mind you. But I will put all my effort into it if she will give me the support in this decision. I need her to support this endeavor for it to work for me. Keeping our M in turmoil is not going to get me motivated. Most days all I think about is our M and it reduces my productivity drastically. I try to block it out while I am at work but thoughts of how to better our M take over.

Does anyone ever feel like they can't do anything right to satisfy their partner? I suppose the POJA would alleviate these feelings. How do you know the other person is in agreement and not just out for appeasement? How do you instill POJA when there are many other things wrong in the M? Or when you are afraid to upset your partner when you don't agree or even broach the subject?

I know my W is upset with our financial problems. I also know that I have contributed to them greatly. But there are other factors at work here also that are out of my control. I know like everyone else in America that prices for all goods and services have gone up. This has led many to change budgeting plans for their families. This economic problem I know has led to our families shrinking of spendable money. We have other factors contributing to our financial woes also. As a family we could alleviate some of these problems with a serious discussion over finances. When we have tried to talk about finances it always led to a fight over how the money got spent. I've tried doing budgets with my W and they have lasted no more than 2 months. I finally got fed up with the bickering of how the money was spent and just let the bills get paid in any manner. Not a very good solution and it showed.

What EWS failed to mention is that his younger brother whom he taught the skills has the same type company and makes over $400,000.00 a year. He is having a home custom built and enjoys a great life style. I am pushing EWS to talk to his younger brother and find out how he is doing it and simply copy his methods. We ran into his younger brother at the store on Friday. He said he had to get up at 3:30 on Sat. to finish all the work he has for this week. I told EWS to go over to his brothers and get work, we do owe him $5,000.00, as of yet EWS has not done this. ??
Another LB in our marriage has been our house. We have a beautiful home with an acer lot. EWS is quit capable of repairing anything, yet our home is in disrepair. Since we have started this program EWS has begun to repair it. I am amazed and thankful and have let him know. I know part of the reason he is repairing it is to sell it, but I still enjoy seeing it repaired. Usually by this time in the summer the grass in the backyard is over the kids heads and I have to hire someone to come in and mow it. This summer EWS has kept it clean and nice. Our granddaughter enjoys playing in the yard too.
I do thank each of you that are responding to this thread. I feel that even if EWS and I do not work this out you are giving us a place to heal. Also, your comments lead EWS and I to great discussions and soul searching. Thanks!

EWS,

I would suggest you start acting like the man in your house, quiting whining and get a job. Stop the daydreaming and support your family.

EWSwife,

I suggest you quiting whining about what others have and support your husband. Berating your husband here because of his brothers success makes you sound like a shrew.

You both have some growing up to do.

This is a classic statement of someone who has problems with Independent Behavior. A HUGE LOVEBUSTER. We use the excuse that we can't do anything right, when it is really that we feel entitled to get our way.........always. You practice POJA and it resolves most of the other problems in the marriage. Trust me on this, I was very afflicted with IB and learning how to POJA, while very hard for me, changed the whole dynamic in my marriage.

Dr. Harley recommends learning how to POJA in the grocery store. Nothing goes into the basket without the enthusiastic agreement of the other. Once we mastered that, it seemed easier in other areas.

Check out these articles: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3406_independent.html

POJA: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html

Dr. Harley is so smart. EWS and I can not get to the first isle without one of us going back to the car or both of us leaving. Believer how long have you been married? I see you have so many posts, do you work? What is your story? Does anyone have a success story to share? Where on this board would I find positive things. I am starting to agree that this is just complaining and not really doing EWS and I any good. We are starting to discuss not posting here.

I am divorced - my ex and I raised 8 kids between the two of us, and I work full time as a civilian Contracting Officer for the Navy. I also have my own property management business.

The two of you have a lot going for you and I hope that you can work this out and make some changes. You are right at the brink of having a good life together - kids almost grown, grandkids to look forward to.

Wouldn't you prefer to stay with the father of your children if you could learn to love him again and have a good marriage?

And we usually suggest that couples posting here each have their own thread and stay off each others thread. Otherwise it can cause a lot of bickering.

believer,
I think the truth is that EWS and I have already check out of our marriage. We don't bicker, argue or even discuss anymore. We just let things happen.

And to answer your question about staying with the father of my children etc. I have answered that; NO! The children have all left my home each time EWS has an AO. On Saturday evening when EWS had his AO against the thugs here at our home, one of them was our son, who ended up spending the night in the woods, sleeping there instead of coming back home. He is eat up with bug bites. My youngest child that is still at home went to a hotel with her boyfriend. Does this sound good to you? I just don't think you understand about EWS's AO, how long we have lived with them, how sever they are, what damage they have done. Let's go over the family dynamics again.

Oldest daughter - 23 divorced, 1 child, stripper by occupation. Low self esteem brought on by possible bipolar with abusive father. Ran away from home at 17 with older boyfriend, started using drugs. Ended up getting pregnant, but got off drugs, had baby, got married, lasted less than a year.
Counselor spends a lot of time talking about the effect of physical abuse on a family of girls. He said it was like fire and gasoline.

Son - 19 copy of EWS with AO and attitude about work. quits jobs, uses drugs, hangs out with the wrong people just like EWS, who is changing and then will work to change EWSIII.

Twin daughters - oldest still at home, only child still in school, the other 3 dropped out, only son got GED, decent grades, older boyfriend, sleeps with him and left with him Sat, Youngest twin - lives with boyfriend who she is pregnant by, baby due in Oct. She'll turn 18 in Dec. Her boyfriend is not welcome in our home by EWS. The boyfriend is a man too old to be with her. I am confused here and don't even know what I should do????

As you have read, EWS feels he is to blame for this. Why? I am a teacher and tried to discuss with him what I thought we should do all through these kids lives. I detached from the problem and tried to use the latest methods I was learning in my own training to deal with teenagers. BUT EWS had lost respect for me from the beginning of the marriage and his resentment caused him to do the opposite of what I explained. He would tell me these are "our kids" not the ones you teach. I felt that the methods would work. Methods like "Seven Habits of an Effective Teen", "Reaching children with socio economically challenged backgrounds" etc. Talking to the kids instead of yelling at them. EWS sometimes listened, sometimes he just lost control.


It's gotten to the point over the last few years that the kids call EWS to get permission to do things because we can't agree and I don't feel my voice is heard. The kids have become very good at playing us against each other. To try to stop that I just said "Call your Dad". Now all decisions are made by EWS.

We don't agree already on the granddaughter. EWS thinks it's funny and she will love him more if he lets her do whatever she wants. This has started causing me to not want to keep her. They are not serious things, but she is learning no discipline. All she does is cry about it and EWS lets her do it. Trust me, as a grandmother, you would freak!

The two of us do have a lot going for us - separately.

I can see how EWS and I need to separate our threads. I am moving over to Emotional Needs. My online affair has ended and now the real issue for me is EN. EWS can stay here and keep you guys updated.

What a shame that he has destroyed 5 other lives.

What kind of man acts like that?

I have moved my thread to Emotional Needs, Profile of an Abuser.

Then you have to go back! You can't expect to do it perfectly the first time. Go back and practice until you get it right!

Our first time, I slammed the Marie's dressing in the cart and stormed out of the store. Why? Because he became unglued over the prospect of spending $2.99 on a bag of lettuce and had an angry outburst. We were having a fight in the produce section over lettuce!

Dr. Harley told me basically that my pushing the $2.99 lettuce on him, instead of the $.89 yucky head of lettuce is what pushes his buttons. Dr. Harley told him something like: "she has been doing this for a long time because she feels entitled [to get her way] but you can't allow yourself to get angry." He told my H to go to "anger management classes" and shocked him out of his skull!! HE has not had an AO since!

Melodylane, Believer and Iam,

I looked up your stories, because if I am going to take someone's advice I want to know they are giving good advice. Um guys- EWS and I should be giving you advice. WE have been together 25 years, let me say that again, 25 years as of August 21. We have never filed for a divorce, and right now we are in counseling and looking for better help. We are making it priority 1 over the house payment!

EWS has had 2 physical affairs, one night stands and 1 emotional, I have had 1 emotional affair, we have raised 4 children together, not well, but they made it. We both have worked from day 1, even when I was pregnant with twins. Went back to work when they were 6 weeks old.

I forgive EWS for the one nighters and the EA. What I am having trouble getting over is the years of AO and financial difficulty. My EA did not give me one minute of pleasure, I was in it by myself as OM is still in love with wife and lives over 2000 miles away. I am in desperate need of having my EN met and EWS still can not get his life together, but he is working on it.

I can say this, if EWS and I get it together we will let you know how we did it.

I don't think I need your advice EWSWife, but thanks for the sarcastic offer.

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