FB,

Great choice. Seriously. Whether she is or isn't...your knowledge of the truth is worth it. You'll feel better when you act bravely, I promise.

LA

My wife seems to be opening more verbally and overall seems to be removing some of her walls. Been making an effort to spend time with her and stay positive. However, my wife is still very much blocking initimacy/sex. It was the suggestion of the marriage counselor this week for my wife to show more interest with intimacy. Although my wife states that she is dead passion-wise for me, the counselor suggested that loving acts might create loving feelings. The counselor was saying that my wife should not block intimacy completely as this would be counterporductive. My wife was agreeable to this tactic, however has shown little effort to act on it. I am so afraid to even ask for sex due to fear of rejection and fear that it will bring up bad feelings within my wife. Should I ask her for sex or wait her out? It is so painful to me since I just want my wife to feel the same way I do about her. I have made my feelings regarding this abundantly clear in the past. I'm afraid that if she keeps this coldness up I will be more and more tempted just to say "to hell" with it. I hope this conflict has not created a permanent rift in our relationship. It's sometimes hard to keep a positive attitude in this situation when I feel that she is fully aware of how painful this is for me, but continues with her cold ways. What are some of your suggestions?

Asking for SF at this point would be closer to rape than intimacy. Intimacy means a lot of things - holding hands in the mall; sitting close enough to touch on the couch while you watch tv; getting her a cup of tea; letting her put her head on your shoulders; rubbing her feet after a long day; asking her what she thinks about a friend's vacation...do you see the difference between intimacy for women and intimacy for men? Women need to know you're interested in us; men need to know we're willing to have SF with you. Neither is wrong, but we get our good feelings in different ways. Have you read Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus? I don't agree with all of it, but it does give us a pretty good insight into the differences. It might help you.

Well I just went ahead and asked last night because I don't know what to do. My wife says that she wants me to ask for intimacy. I knew it was late so I didn't expect anything at the time...and I made this clear. She followed up by holding me while we feel asleep. It was a gesture that meant alot to me.

Did you get a PI hired last Friday?

LA

Unfortunately no. Some stuff came up and I wass unable to. I know I should have made it a priority, but I just didn't get to it. I get so frustrated... I could never put her through what I'm going through. That she is just sitting around watching me suffer seems so alien and sociopathic. Not the woman I married and fell for. But then again, I guess that woman loved me back then. No matter what I try, say or do it seems like I'm hitting my head against a brick wall and then getting up and doing it again. If I don't break before this is all over it's going to be a miracle.

Things seem to go from bad to worse. Every time I talk about our relationship she reveals things that are very painful to me. Every time she reveals new information she seems to be slipping away more and more. Now my wife is saying that she has felt very little to no passion for me since the beginning. She says that is why our sex life has been so bad. She says that she stayed with me for so long and married me because I was a "good guy" and a "good thing". She says she didn't want to tell me for fear of hurting me. She says that her ultimate hope was to just skate through our marriage indefinitely without being passionate and hope that I wouldn't be unhappy. She states that it is not fair to me, and that is why she decided to tell me. Not really the truth as I threatened either 1)divorce or 2)counselling when I could tell something was wrong and she just wouldn't tell me. I have supported my wife for years during school, an internship and residency. I moved a number of times to follow her career. I have shown endless selflessness and support for her carerr and what she wanted to do. Truth is I would have been back in school an eon ago if it were not for this marriage. All this information is coming on the brink of her getting a promotion and a serious income upgrade. I feel so betrayed that my love for her is now fading. I feel unloved and used. I told her that sex with her is meaningless if she does not feel the same way towards me (and it's the truth). All I have ever watned from her was to show me the love that I have shown her. I do not see how I can be "so great" if she does not feel passion towards me. Everytime I ask her what I could do different to make steps forwards she says "I don't know". She says that she is so guilty that she does not know what to do. She says that she is unable to show support because she is so depressed. Ultimately I told her that this is so exhausting to me that she will have to meet me halfway. I feel that I have been overstetching my boundaries and trying to convince somebody that they love me when they really don't. I need reinforcement that what I am doing is having results....if I don't...I am out. I can't be hovering around like a pathetic beat dog, getting beat down and then getting back up for more...it's driving me to the brink of insanity. As much as I love her, I'm thinking it's time for ME to let her go.

FB,

I'm replying to your post backwards. Just a heads up.




DJs are tough...they assume what you don't know. It's like when we were growing up we made these secret vows to ourselves which made perfect sense at 6, 11, 18...and when we hit 25, 30 and 40...the experience of what we feared most isn't what we thought, and we don't hold to those old vows. Because we have years of adult experience we didn't have when we made those vows.

Those promises can kick your heart to a pulp if you aren't aware. Like you saying you could never treat her as she is treating you...the resentment from disconnection and infidelity within an emeshed relationship can very well have you treating her horridly in six months of this abuse. You won't know until you get there...because it isn't like you switch from being yourself...it creeps up, like resentment, and you won't see it overtake you.

Change your thoughts with reality...you are not hitting your head against a brick wall...you are routinely conditioned to basing your choice of action upon possible response. You've been living backwards by doing that all your life. Crisis breaks that routine...because we really cannot live based on possible response when the response becomes that which isn't reasonable, understandable or predictable. Part of the alien package we're seeing in your WW's mindset.

You won't break. In fact, you'll discovery you ARE a miracle...that's if you do the work, change your choice to stop betraying yourself by choosing your actions based on possible response (it's a constant negation of self we point to others as doing to us); and begin choosing your actions based on your goals and your code...and let the outcome go.


I know this was a vent...and know well how needed it is to blow off the steam, share your frustration, pain, fear and anger. I'm pointing out your self-DJs and those in your marriage because you are sabotaging yourself...doubles your pain, anger, frustration and fear. That's not what you want.

Reach for reality with both hands...highest priority. To know the truth gives you the true power of choice, enables you to make a plan...and stop feeling powerless and crazy. Be good to yourself. Hire the PI right away.

LA

FB,

Limit relationship (R) talk to once per week for only 20 minutes...at a regularly scheduled day and time. Plan A isn't talking about your R...it's acting from your love, acting love...RC, FC, DS, conversing where you listen and repeat...practicing to break your enmeshment so you can inject respect into your relationship; so you can experience it.

Remember a wayward state of mind...resentment distorts...and she's rewriting her marital history. You hang onto yours, 'k? Hers is hers and she didn't feel this way before...she isn't revealing withheld truths...just seems that way to her to justify crushing pain into her partner...and since she doesn't know where she ends and you begin, she may feel entitled to crush that pain into you harder, to punish, in a way, herself--the doormat she chooses to see herself as in the past. She's recreating who she was from her own disgust.

Only, you loved her and weren't disgusted with her. Hang onto that, 'k?

Her "stuff" is NOT your stuff. Her opinions--thoughts, perceptions, beliefs, perspective and feelings are HERS...not The Truth, just her truth. Listen and repeat it back...put a hopper on your head and do not allow her words to come into your brain until you've kept your promise to yourself to RESPECT her stuff as hers...strain it for what is hers, and repeat to hand it back...acknowledge, validate her stuff...and leave your stuff intact.

She fell in love with you because she grew to know she chose mates horribly...she loved in you what she refused to see in herself...she doesn't believe she was safe to be your mate, she knew she did harm, was capable of crushing pain into others when they deserved it...and she found solace, comfort, freedom in taking you as completion of her...and it will be the your undoing.

She had to come to hate your safeness...like a promise fulfilled...and her unhappiness and penchant to create and build resentment...because how you can resent that which you loved most? Believe me, you can...for it points again to how unsafe she is to herself and others. Right back where she was before she met you...so it's gotta be your fault, see?

Because you were "better" than her, your goodness could redeem, be incorporated into her...what good guy would want such a bad woman? She had to be good somewhere in her, did she, if you loved her? Inequality is inequality...your good choices say nothing about who she is...nor her terrible choices about who you really are. You're both equal. Keep that in mind and don't play her superior/inferior game, 'k? I promise you, she picked you to be her lifetime partner to work out her FOO issues...you are her match, just as she is yours.

And her self-image which rests on her accomplishments, is saying now you're not good enough, etc...and you hold onto know you know you are...we all are...we are all enough. Her perception has changed as her stuff changes...it's about her, from her, for her. Not you, 'k?

At any point, had she made you her true focus, she could have felt great passion for you, and she CAN. Up to you to hold and believe that. It's true. You can feel passionate for her, again, too.

Please read "Mulan" poster's threads...she's a BW and her WH...and I think you might find some simliarities in her threads...she's a very good writer in her posts...she's studied a lot and is a vet here on MB. You can search under her screen name.

Ascertain the truth about infidelity or not...then you can choose to go to Plan B (which may well be Plan D and what she thinks she wants right now) right away. Still is a stand for your marriage, to protect your remaining loving feelings...don't rob your love bank twice, though, by BELIEVING her truth as The Truth. It isn't even close.

The Truth is our actions...facts...reality. She chose to stay with you and accepted you putting her through school. She chooses right now to stay with you. She is present. She is sharing. See reality as it is...and you cannot be a beaten dog...for you are a human being. Hold yourself to that. You are choosing to stand for your marriage, your own goal, to take in and stab yourself with her stuff instead of handing it back, understood, not agreed with; and stabbing yourself with degrading thoughts and assumptions about striving to make someone love you.

You are loved. She chose to love you and act from her love for years. She may not feel love right now from robbing and blocking her own love bank...doesn't mean she doesn't choose you to love. Bank on it--you've seen all parts of her self-image over the years...not just the best parts we are infatuated with in the first stage of marriage...nope, the second phase where we show our warts, our awfulness, our pettiness...you've seen it and have chosen to love her wholeness, anyway.

Good choice. For she has seen all of you, too. Not just your best sides. You are true partners. Know that fact. Even when you act like enemies, see the other as your own source of pain--please hear me, FB--YOU ARE NOT.

That's how effective fantasy is...we can see each other as enemies, attackers...it's the signal one of you IS attacking your marriage. She is right now. You're defending it. It did NOTHING to her. Honor your marriage in this same belief...and do so through choosing to act from your code of respect, love, consideration and honesty, anyway.

Pry your hands off response...it was an illusion. Over and over again when you believed you delighted, wow'd and thrilled her...SHE was doing that, not you. Your acts of love can be shut out and down...keep acting from your choice to love, anyway.

Helps you maintain your loving feelings. It's for right now...not forever...when you feel beat down, check yourself...you're most likely in the future, which isn't here...and that's fantasy. Just like her belief there's anyone better out there for her is fantasy, 'k?

Would you consider you both made your careers your "children"? In marriages where we put our children ahead of the marriage, our marriage fails to hold...there's you, her and The Marriage. So all three are in the top spot in a healthy relationship. When careers, extended families, FOO, friends get into that top spot, then the marriage suffers. You will feel suffering yourself. You're half the marriage.

What if she divorces you and then you find out about an affair at her work? Probably her boss or closest coworker? Will you feel doubly betrayed because you didn't act to know? Will you feel less pain for not knowing? Some validation in her lying to you? I'm not attacking...I was a master at self-deception...kept sabotaging myself from my hidden belief that if I'm a victim, I'm blameless. Which is why I'm on you about ascertaining the truth right now. Do this because you're worth it, your marriage is worth it, and it affects the rest of your life, 'k?

If you will choose to get through this...I promise you will be astonished...to realize you are stronger, love deeper and are more connected to this world and yourself than you thought possible. We only learn this in hindsight...for we fear, and act bravely, we know we ARE brave...we experience ourselves as brave, 'k?

No one can make you a doormat. You are doing a hero's gig right now. Stick to it. Widen your resources...go to Alanon meetings...speak simply and directly of your terrible pain (feels like surgery without anesthesia) to her...own it. It's yours. Breaking enmeshment is essential to getting to the third stage of marriage...mature love. Worth everything, FB. You can do this.

LA

Wow...LA...I am awe-struck by your words. What insistent beauty and strength you present!

FB,
In less glorious words, I think a couple things might be going on. First, I think that an affair is completely possible. She has LOTS of wayward symptoms. But...and this is a BIG but...she also has LOTS of depression symptoms.

Let's just play devil's advocate and say that there isn't an affair and your wife is clinically depressed. She would withdraw from you. She wouldn't be interested in sex. She would be distant and emotional. She might even question her life in general (aka. rethinking why she married you). I think it is POSSIBLE that she has a serious depression and that could explain all of the red flags you are seeing.

As for the idea of an affair...are there any signs that really point you to adultery? Is she secretive about her whereabouts? Do you know where she is throughout the day and who she is with? Does she do a lot of things by herself...going out without you? Are there times that you have asked her about something and her answers just seemed weird or off? I would look at her through the adultery lens and see if anything other than her emotional state with you fits.

With that said, I do think you should snoop. Can you bug her car? Does she have a laptop? If she does, you can install spyware and have it sent to you so that you can see what she does. Do you know anyone that she works with? Could you take time off work to "spot check" at her work? A P.I. is probably the most efficient way. Don't tip your hand that you are doing this or it will be much more difficult.

Good luck.
HTM

Had a really good night last night. Since my wife basically refuses to tell me why she is unhappy with our marriage, I decided to systematically ask her questions about what is making her unhappy. I found out at least one thing: she felt I was totally disinterested in her work and career. She stated that I never show interest in her work, which is not true (but I did my best not to become defensive). She stated that I never show up to her work. I reminded her that I have gone to her work several times, while she has not ever showed up to my work. She followed up with "oh, I guess that's true". I promised that I would make an effort to show interest in her daily work activities and take her out to lunch/bring her lunch when I could. She is friends with 4 couples who all 4 are about to get married within the next few months. I imagine most are in the young honeymoon phase of their relationship and show nice little signs of public affection. I wonder if she sees their actions and gets sad that we are no longer the same way? I gave her a nice foot massage as I knew she had a rough day...and did my best not to make her think I was wanting sex. Which is difficult since foot massages are sensual in themself. But, anyway I believe that I might be learning step by step more about how to please my wife. Have any suggestions gestures/actions/activities to totally take her by surprise and impress her? Come on females....be my secret weapon!

Take her hand while you're walking in the mall. If you go to the food court, give her extra napkins or ketchup. Open the door for her. Let her sit down first, or stand up when she walks in the room. If you get home before her, come greet her with a hug, kiss, and/or great big enthusiastic Hi! Make her favorite food. Plan a picnic. Ask her about work, and actually LISTEN to her! Ask her if she wants to host bridal showers at your home, and offer to help. Ask her what she needs done around the house that has never gotten done. Ask her for her opinion on something. Ask her to take on some task instead of you doing it, such as choosing the color of paint for a room you're painting. Pull out a board game, and invite some friends over to play it. Throw a block party and tell everyone some of the great things she's done lately. Oh, and never NEVER interrupt her. There's a start for you.

I really do my best. It is very exhausting to do things for a person that doesn't seem to appreciate them...or doesn't do kind gestures in return. I know alot of men that do everything for their wives only to have their wives disrespect them in public. I had often thought to myself that these men must be a miserable wreck inside and possibly heading to an early grave. I hope to goodness that this relationship doesn't start looking like one of those. I refuse to be in one of those relationships. I don't mind being "the knight in shining armor"...but having Guineverre spit on you after slaying the dragon... it just seems plan sadistic and unfair.

Well, you DID ask...

Yes I know..and I really appreciate it. I was merely reflecting on my experiences with people I know. I was just stating that I hope that this relationship doesn't turn out like that.

Thanks for the tips Catperson!

Another item that would dually relieve stress and obsessing may be in an activity where you and your wife become jointly involved. For example: Cycling, photography, art appreciation, viewing of show houses, archery....

Take your pick! Acquire a passion, it can become infectious.

FB,

One of the big things I learned during a troubling time of my M I have shared with others here and I will share with you. We have always heard of the need to treat our wives like a queen. I did not treat my wife badly, but through business of life lost that level of treatment. When our M hit an iceberg I determined to treat her like a queen in an effort to save it. What I found during this process was that I was treating her like a queen and she was viewing me as a peasant. I am sure part of that had to do with the fact she was in an affair. However, I began to notice that I had seen quite a number of men in the same situation where they were doing everything for their wives to make them happy and they were treated like cr*p.

I resolved to continue treating her like a queen, but no longer from the standpoint of a peasant - but a king. I can't explain exactly how I conveyed that to her - only that my demeanor was very loving but that of an equal. I was willing to give her the world, but gently and firmly made it clear I expected reciprocation. That was THE turning point in my M's recovery. From that point, her desire to please me began to return. She developed a sense again that she did not want to disappoint me. A healthy sense, not that of somebody inferior to me.

I hope it makes sense and helps.

Yes this is what I am talking about. I am still struggling for my wife to see me as an equal partner. I can't seem to find the right formula that will bring her to see me as she once did. I realize it takes time, but it's hard to be the giver and feel rejected at the same time. Guess this is what being strong is about. Maybe just the act of staying strong during all this poo will make her come through.

My wife played a prank on me today. A fun-loving type of prank. This is the kind of stuff we used to do to each other all the time during happier times. An action/gesture that she really hasn't even attempted since her revealation. It was fun and made me laugh. I was so happy I almost pooped my pants.

Thank you for painting that picture for me!

Sounds great, keep up the good work!