FB,

Who you are is a "WoW"...never doubt that. Your essence is stunning. We can hide it in old tricks and other folks...our mates really know us, and yes, you acting with focus and conviction from your own power is a huge Wow.

Your recognition of her ENs, eliminating your LBs and knowing your own ENs is all Wow, too. Says "I see you" "I hear you" "I know you" "I feel your presence." As you see, hear, know and feel your own stuff, you'll understand your Wowfactor better.

And be wow'd by her, too.

Are you guys talking about healthy boundaries...where she can branch off and nurture some same-sex friendships, not have RC with members of the opposite sex, play and rest with each other and earn trust through keeping to those agreed to boundaries? We do tend to slingshot from 0 to 180 degrees when we "break out" of our patterns...and then we work toward the middle, the apex of 90 degrees...which is what I see you doing.

Funniest thing about what we humans long to be seen as...just signals to what we are already and refuse to see in ourselves.

A tip for you: What you admire in others you are denying in yourself...and the same for what riles you. Share your way...use "Good to know" when she answers a question or shares her thoughts, her stuff. For it truly is good to know.

Doesn't define you, 'k? Only you do that.

Don't live in your expectations...they can seem to be the source of our joy, a surprise...she wanted to go with you on the trip and she did. That's the source of joy, not your expectation of her not wanting to go giving you joy when in fact, she did. DJs are assumptions and they can hide in soothing, surprising places...expect them everywhere and hunt them down to see them for what they are, 'k?

Please reinforce through acknowledgement she already has her own identity and always has had and will have. So have you. You both were made wonderfully whole and complete. You don't complete or define one another. No need. You are both new every day of your lives.

When she fears...she fears. It's hers. You aren't the cause, control or cure of her stuff...as her partner, up to you to know, comprehend and understand...so you will know this for yourself. You guys are side by side, not end to end...acknowledge, not cure, 'k? That prolongs the old dance...

for if we choose to live as if we are the cause, then we have the power to cure...to earn love is to earn punishment...and to dole it out to make someone else stop punishing us. It's a cycle we all break out of, over time, when hit the point of how badly these beliefs damages ourselves and everyone we love.

How do you feel about regaining your own trust again? Do you have a deadline, a short time expectation on that? Expectations are premeditated resentments...watch out for them kicking you into spirals, 'k?

Thank you for your update. One thing I meant to say about your thread title is you may consider changing it to "My wife says she loves me" period someday soon.

She does. She didn't stop. Nor did you. You both just stopped acting from it. That happens when we begin reacting to fear, instead.

LA

FB,

I'm a newbie here and I've been doing a lot of reading on MB's website. I actually just read your thread. I can't say I have advice for you, but I do want to say I do admire you. You're going through some very tough times and I'm glad to hear things are looking up for you. You deserve it. A lot of people probably would have thrown in the towel, but you fought on and worked on it. You should be proud of yourself and know that you sound like a great person and someone who your W is lucky to have. Hopefully, when it's all said and done you're W will remember why she married you and I will echo a lot of the other posts...she did she just forgot or got lost along the way. It happens. Best of luck and please keep us updated!!

Thanks for the kind words. It is taking courage on both our parts. It's when we stop hiding from our fears and act upon reality that we can find truth. Welcome to the forums. I hope you find them as helpful as I have. Initially, the single most reassuring thing I found out on these forums is that I was not alone....not by a longshot. The people who post on these forums have strength. They demonstrate that trait by trying to work on their relationships for the better. I wish you luck with whatever has brought you here.

I'm trying to improve myself for myself. I put in my 2 weeks notice at work and I'm going to take at least month off before beginning work again (I have a job where I can basically be hired in a few days once I make the decision). In the hustle of trying to live the American dream I have neglected family, my spouse and most importantly myself. I think part of my current situation is because I failed to see how unhappy I was with my relationship. Kinda weird how seeing clearer would indicate being better to myself? I've been beating myself up for too long, gauging my spouse's reactions as a meter for how good I am doing in life. I've decided that the only thing I can really do is to put my best foot forward, face truths and accept myself as being a worthy person. If people can't see me as a worthy person...really not my problem. If my wife can't see me as a worthy person....really not my problem. Mind control is a power that even god's can't achieve. I still love her, but I could easily find love elsewhere. She seems to be slipping out of her haze slowly. Her attitude seems to rise as I am achieving a sort of zen or self-actualization. I'm not claiming to be a some sort of jedi or shaman, I'm just seeing things for face value....for the first time in my life. I'm either becoming liberated or I'm going crazy...I'll let you know in the end.

Thought I would write an update and get any feedback or advice.

Negotiations still seem to be progressing better than they were a month ago, however my wife is still very hesitant to give herself sexually to me.

Things I've noticed recently:
1. she seems to be more happy around me (at least on the surface), whereas before I could tell she was keeping something from me and/or being cold in general.
2. seems to want to do more things with me
3. is very hesitant to have relationship talk, even though we only schedule it once a week.
4. usually gets mad and emotional during relationship talk
5. sleeps closer to me in the bed, whereas before would sleep at the furtheriest point.
6. gets angry if i stand my ground on something (i'm tired of being passive)
7. seems to spend more time at home (might be random occurance).
8. shows more appreciation for my acts of service (idenitified as one of her love languages)

During relationship talk this week I just tried to be as open as I possibily could. I just talked and talked because she says NOTHING about the relationship unless I get the ball rolling. I told her I felt the relationship had gone sour because I had no boundaries and would not push issues. I told her that relationship talks were important because lack of communication got us in this situation in the first place. When I brought up sex she stated "I don't want to be treated like a piece of meat!". She was visibly angry when she said this. I told her that this statement insulted me. I have been with her for 17 years. I wouldn't treat anybody like a piece of meat, much less the person I chooe to spend my life with. I respect people too much to treat anyone like a "piece of meat" I told her I felt that her lack of desire to be sexual towards me was either: a)she does not find me physically attractive or b)she does not respect me or c) both. Running every possible scenario in my head it can only point to either of the 2 options. I'm just trying to flush out some freaking answers from my wife. I feel it's "b" for whatever reasons. I told her that she has basically been running the show, with me blinding following along. I told her I thought that might be one of the problems. She also blamed my parents for things that she had no solid information about and was 180 degrees wrong on. Anything negative that she knows about my parents is through me and me opening up to her. I feel using my parents as ammo is cheap pool. Her family contains Grade A screw-ups but I know it is unfair and cruel to use them as fodder, so I resist any temptations to say anything negative about them. My parents hold my wife in the highest regards in reality. The only negative aspect is that my mother can see right through our guise and knows fully what kind of pain my wife is capable of inflicting on me. However my mother knows that I love my wife, bites her tongue and shows love and respect towards my wife. My demeanor was calm and respectful (in my eyes) during our talk, hers was emotional and aggressive. She cried and once called herself "selfish" for witholding sex. When she tried to talk over me once I said "don't interupt me, don't talk over me". The one boundary I set in the conversation is the one element that stopped the conversation flat. She then stated she was too mad to talk. Everytime I try to be open and tell her how I feel it's like a WWE wrestling match. She accuses me of talking psycho babble and talking over her head (although she is about x4 smarter than me). btw i'm not a psychologist. I don't intentionally try and make her angry, talk down to her, make her feel inferior, shameful or manipulate her. I just try and tell her my viewpoint. And I won't let an issue slide, ever again. Otherwise we will be doomed to repeat the same conflicts over and over. Remember she once told me that she would be perfectly happy living with me in the same house, if she did not have to have sex with me....and just hoped that I wouldn't be unhappy. Her statements make me insane and wonder why I've choosen to put myself through this....then I remember that I have fallen in love with this emotional wreck.

Could someone be so dysfunctional sexually that they don't know how to give themselves to someone else. She almost operates like a sexual abuse victim. I have asked her straight up about this before too. Or at the very least someone who has highly distorted point of what sex acutally is. Her inability to be totally open blocks any chance of true intimacy. She just lays there and says nothing during sex. Sometimes when she is drunk she opens up and is actually hella fun in the sack. One time when she was drunk had me spank her....and wanted to keep going like the energizer bunny. These are actions she would NEVER NEVER do sober. It's like repressed sexuallity comes out. Sadly, my best times sexually with my wife have been when she was drunk. Shamefully I wished she were drunk more so we could have fullfilling, wild, spontaneous, fun sex. I once told her that I like it when she had been drinking because it increased my chances to "get lucky", thinking I was being cute and funny. Think I shot myself in the foot with this. Not entirely by coincidence she started "passing out" after a long night of festivities, stating she was too tired or drunk to do anything. But if i wouldn't press the issue she would stay up until 3 am and watch tv or play on the computer to get tired. or stay up until crazy hours with her friends. or anything that didn't involve sex with me. I see this as disrespectfully giving me a psychological middle finger. Truth is I shouldn't have to wait for her to be drunk in order for her to have sex this way (or at all). I believe my wife is shameful of her sexuality. She has proven that she can let herself go with a little help from liquid courage, but just won't otherwise. I tried 1,000 times to tell her that sex should be fun and a bonding experience with the one you love...not something to be anxious or have expectations aobut. My wife is very attractive and I know males persue her...I have been a witness to this. She can have no illusion that she is unattractive, even though she pretends to have a negative self-body image (I know this is a ploy to once again have me tell her how desireable she is again "game"). We play that one about 2 times a week. "Oh I am SO fat", "no your not, it fact....blah blah doesn't matter because this will be replayed again in a few days.". I think that pushing the issue of sex just makes my wife more shameful and resentful. I feel instead of working on the true issue she would rather sabotage our marriage and point the finger at me while doing it. What could be so fearful about sex? leads back to abuse? somebody pounding into your head that sex is a shameful act? SOMEWHERE there is a strong belief about SOMETHING that inhibits my wife from having enjoyable sex with me. I'm just afraid it will tear our marriage apart to find it.

Any insights?

Also I'm thinking about joining a monastary or building a rocket to shoot me into space.

FB,

I'm glad you're keeping R talk to once a week. What's your time limit for it? We kept to 20 minutes...no room to talk and talk...simple bulleted statements of ownership.

Your W gave you a great one. And you said you were insulted by her statement. Big fat DJ right there. It's harming your communication and your marriage.

DJ - Disrespectful Judgment. Read "Love Busters" and eliminate all of them.

She can have this perception...doesn't mean you're treating her that way. Do you want to understand her or control her? Do you want to TAKE offense or acknowledge? Your choice.

Just know that what you did crossed a boundary. That's not what you want.

Strive first to understand, then be understood.

She doesn't open up about R talk...and then she did. Big time. One statement. Then on top of the DJ (assuming she was saying YOU made her feel like a piece of meat), you added two more...you stated her perception came from one of two places in HER. Do you really want to know her or remake her into an image of her you'll be happy with?

I'm being tough on you right now because you're not holding to your boundary of respect. What is your predetermined progressive boundary enforcement around you for when you cross your boundary?


Stop. You aren't that powerful. She voluntarily told you something really important. LISTEN. Listen to know, not to own...it's not yours. Do you want to be safe for your W to be radically honest, or control what you hear so you don't hurt?

You won't hurt if you don't DJ yourself and her. You're doing that, not her.

Stop digging/flushing. Focus on listening and repeating to stop your own disrespectful reactivity...state your DJs as they occur..."I heard you say you don't want to feel like a piece of meat and my fear went off the charts, with this huge amount of anger right on its heels. I took your sharing with me as my fault. Wow. I did that so fast."

That's sharing with ownership. It means you're practicing RH, acting from respect and that you ARE safe to share with...you'll state (share) not DEMONSTRATE.

You HEARD her blame your parents instead of hearing her thoughts which you weren't privileged to hear before. Her theories, thoughts, perceptions...all hers...not fact. Do you want to have the privilege to know another human being's intimate thoughts or do you want to refute, dismiss and discount them?

You're not safe, FB. You get it and you lose it. Stop focusing on flushing her out so you can maul her...and focus on listening to acknowledge and hand back to her, instead.

You're doing the bait and slap...stop.

You didn't act from respect...so I understand her not respecting you right now. You can change that and respect yourself. Your choice.

Btw, about your other DJ that she doesn't find you sexually attractive? Sex is IN the mind...and when humans do not feel desirable, they don't desire. When they feel like scum, they don't find others stepping on them to be very attractive, safe, a celebration of who they are. Get safe to share with, know and not own what isn't yours...and her desire may go through the roof.

LB's will kill SF.

Every family has screwups...neither of you would have been attracted initially to each other if not for their screw-ups and injuries...together, you heal those old issues...right now, you're actively choosing to re-open and wound her in the exact ways she saw in you to help her heal.

She has done the same to you. You gotta ASSUME she meant to wound you with her opinion about your parents in relation to you...did you ask? "Ouch. Are you saying that to hurt me right now?" Do you want to live in reality? Then confirm or clarify...stop assuming. It's what is making you reactive NOT her sharing with you.

And you know what's REALLY a building block of intimacy? If she answers "Yes, I was." That's radical honesty and it builds intimacy.

Your demeanor may have been calm and respectful...your choices were not because of your DJs.

Review your post and ask yourself if in your R talk did you want to be aware or in control? Which one? One negates the other? Do you want to know your W right now or control her?

Because this wasn't an R talk...it was your boot camp. Be really honest with yourself...do you want to break her down to rubble and rebuild her so you won't ever be hurt by her again? Do you want her to FEEL how devastated you've felt...or for her to KNOW?

They are two separate things.


She can feel all those things and you CANNOT cause them in her...do you even care what she feels? Are these R talks to change your feelings about her or hers about you right now? Or are they to know what each of your stuff really is?

When you tell her she's wrong about her stuff, you are manipulating and disrespecting her. To make you safe from her stuff...and you already are. Her thoughts are hers, not fact. Stop making them right/wrong. What's your real goal? To know and be known or to change, control, cure?

She is having an internal issue with sex...she feels selfish. What does that mean to her? She doesn't want to feel two-dimensional, like a piece of meat or an outlet. That's about her, her beliefs...do you want to know what she believes, how she perceives, her filter...or do you just want her to be the real piece of meat and not perceive, believe that way?

Figure out what are problems to be solved and what's to be understood...in the real world, you cannot solve anything without understanding it first...90% of marital issues are NOT to be solved...they are to be understood.

Understanding is key...you have your own filter to own, understand...and your DJs make you toxic to share with right now. Clean your own filter up...so you can understand first, then see if there's really anything to solve. The very act itself may validate she's a whole, complete, three-dimensional human being who cannot be a piece of meat...and she may celebrate feeling respected, acknowledged, understood, spoken and listened to the equal she is to you, valued and cherished...biggest turn on there is...because that IS intimacy.

Easily translates into physical intimacy.

She's not an emotional wreck...another DJ. She has a lot of emotions, signals she's not getting, triggering to stuff you have no part of, aren't the cause, control or cure of...do you want to be safe for her to share, helps us humans to hear our thoughts aloud to figure out our own signals (like you do here with your posting)...or do you want to shut her down and then flush her out the way you want her to be?

No wonder she doesn't want to have R talks. Brutal.

Do you want to do communication exercises? It's reasonable because you abdicated your responsibility for your half of the marriage for long, when you go to correct it (because you realized it as really harmful instead of helpful), you'll over shoot...I did that. It's like you were at 0 degrees...and so you do the complete opposite to "fix" yourself...and 180 degrees from 0 is still sick.

What's your target? 90 degrees...the apex of living. It's what we all thirst for and keep overshooting, overcorrecting like in a skid, turning away from it and crashing our relationships.

What your "Remember she once told me" choice to dwell in that statement...it's riling your fear and pain...and she's not doing that. Did she tell you today that is what she wants, would make her happy today? We can reach back over years of our marriages and stab ourselves with our partner's statements...and they would swallow fire to take them back and they can't. And they have to deal with your brain handing you all the emotions, the signals, you experienced when you heard it...feel the insanity, make it into fact and forever...as much of a fantasy as an A.

Speaking of which...

Did you hire the PI to find out if she is having an EA with the divorced coworker? It's very important.

Second, did you do the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) with your W about quitting your job and taking a month off?

Btw, I originally typed "WW" for Wayward Wife through this post...and then went back and revised it...you haven't found out if she is having an A or not. You dropped that ball. It's an important ball. She sounds very much in the WW mindset that I experienced myself.

The flags are still there. I don't understand why she can't share with you her password for her work email so you can see them. Do you check her work cell every night?

Same questions I think I asked before.

Can you make yourself a sigline, btw? I look for your posts, and in the lag time, I forget important stuff...siglines really help me out. Says ages, time married, kids or not, and what your marital issue that brought you here is...obviously, your thread title helps out...however, it doesn't update what you've learned...and a sigline can..."Don't know if in A or not" "In MC and working on reconnecting"...whatever you want in there to help keep your situation separate from all the others on the board.

Yeah, I'm afraid I'm going to confuse you with another BH and embarrass myself big time. Because marital conflict and stress really is common, has many of the same elements, and I'm old...all gray and wrinkled...I'm afraid of my own assumptions, too, FB.

When you guys met an fell in love with other, was she sexually dysfunctional? Afraid of being a piece of meat? Was SF joyous and additionally connecting (we're really connected in our self-images in the infatuation stage)?

Staying up until 3am, playing computer games, watching television...all are signs of depression...intense distraction to our own detriment. Does she now have a regular and healthy sleep pattern with at least six hours and not more than eight hours every night? Does she nap after work for more than a half-hour?

Your opinion that her inability (she's able) to be totally open blocks intimacy...gotta be super safe for anyone to choose to be totally open, radically honest and confiding...and I bet you were when you guys were in infatuation stage.

Second stage is a shock to many people...isn't what their fantasy of marriage included...or even their knowledge, through others...which is why it takes both of you, doing your best, partnering, not parenting, without judgment to get to know and be known.

You can choose to see her actions as giving you the middle finger...you're gonna hurt, feel anger, frustration, and that forever child in you is going to kick your emotions all over the place...and it may not be true. She may feel she is a constant failure to you sexually, unfulfilling, a vehicle to your release like anybody on the planet could be...and no, not from anything you say or do...just because she feels like a constant failure.

She may put anything...darning socks...as an excuse to distract and not experience what she does now during SF.

Wanna do non-verbal communication exercises?

Thing is...you don't know, do you? Which is why you guess, assume...limit possibilities, correct? Our DJs walk into terrifying voids for us...which is why we feel they are real and that aren't even reality.

Stop refuting her stuff. "I'm so fat." "You believe you're fat? Good to know." Change your steps, FB, if you really want to change the dance.

So sharing your stuff, your admiration and appreciation, your own attraction for her is HER having a pretend negative body image? Do you really want to know this woman or just get her hot for you so you can feel admired, appreciated and loved?

If you held yourself to following the policy of Radical Honesty (RH) and stated, "Right now you look so lovely to me. I am turned on, lit up inside by your smile." Those are real statements of affirmations, another of your W's love languages, which she isn't getting met by you because you've DJ'd them as something else.

Do you usually tell her you admire her physical body parts? Or her personality? Her words? Her essence? Her actions?

Not "giving" compliments...stating your own truth...sharing with her.

What could be so fearful about sex? Are you serious? It is the raw physical symbol of absolute vulnerability and ultimate connection in your marriage...which is why it's an EN...it symbolizes deep acceptance, respect, admiration, appreciation, commitment and love. That's what you tried to get her to see, remember? Fear kills all that...feeling rejected (from refuting her stuff and then craving her body); disrespected, talked down to, negated, not appreciated, not loved.

Does not mean you're doing this to her...take your own inventory before you take hers...means she's feeling this way...and you've posted where she is feeling this less and less...and you feel more connected to her during SF...and disconnected when you guys do R talks...don't demean her fear of SF (disconnection) when she may feel very connected when you guys safely communicate.

From your previous conflict avoidance, you might have exampled to her that she's dangerous, to hide her stuff because who she really is disappoints, irritates, annoys or causes you to feel disgust...what's so fearful about conflict?

And you can consider yourself launched at this point of my post.

Ack.

See my reactivity? Your post was like my own marital R talks from four years ago...ohmygosh...triggering all over the place (with reversed roles, btw...I was the digger/flusher). That's mine to own and to share with you. That's my filter. I lived it...which is why I chose to stop living that way.

Changed my life experience...

Find out definitively about a workplace EA, 'k? Could also be a PA, which is another consideration in your battle for SF...don't know. Won't know until you independently verify...and I'm not doubting your intuition that above all, she doesn't want to be the bad guy...would rather you have an A so she can feel good about herself, that she didn't fail.

Because that's what conflict avoidance says, too...rather lose the marriage than be wrong, correct?

And that's not who you are...just how you acted. And then you changed. You are continuing to change. So can she, 'k? It's a choice. Ask MC about it...sex therapy...or doing IC with her...while you independently verify she's not in fantasy affair land (another distraction btw).

Don't push, flush, dig...respectful is listen and repeat (respectful to her and to you...so you don't take in, stop DJing and reeling emotionally)...striving first to understand, then be understood...to really know and be known...her stuff isn't a danger to you...and if it is to her...you'll have the privilege of discovering instead of assuming...and make sure you are sharing your fears, thrills, joy, sorrow and anger aloud, too.

You can do this, FB. Overshooting isn't fatal unless you keep choosing to do it only because it's the opposite of what you did before. Realigning to what your real goal...then you'll thrive.

LA

Yes I fault. I have emotions and I am human. I sometimes feel so drained that I am unable to conduct myself as I should. Sometimes I just have to say.

Thanks for the advice. I will try to have more self-control.

Hon, I don't think she's talking self-control so much as empathy. You're so super frustrated that you can't let yourself get back to square one with her, before all the baggage. She knows it; she protects herself. You have to look at her and see the woman you fell in love with, not the woman you have to battle to achieve anything.

She needs to feel that safeness from you, or it will never be what you want. Does that make sense?

I'm sure a big part of this is her FOO sexuality issues. But she'll never be able to address them if she doesn't feel you're her best friend, her confidante, her one true love, who would stay by her side even if she became a paraplegic for the rest of her life, because you love her that much. HER. Not her body or what her body can give you in terms of satisfaction.

I'm not blaming you, I'm trying to help you see how she got to this point. How you can fix it.

As for your FOO question, heck yeah that can cause her problem. My dad left when I was 12; my brother (3 years older) tried to pound into my head that sex was evil, so that when he went away to college, I wouldn't have sex and get pregnant. Add to that, the first thing my dad did when he moved out was get a vasectomy so he could screw as many women as would have him, and not have to worry about any more kids (boy, did THAT make me feel great, the little mistake he was stuck with). So between my brother making me feel like a POS for letting boys have SF with me (I was too weak to say no) and watching my dad try to screw anything in a skirt, I developed an extremely bad taste for sex.

To this day, 30 years later, I can almost never look forward to sex. And my H gives GREAT sex. But I count whether it's been enough days that H is going to expect it tonight (we have SF every 3 or 4 days), and I often try to find ways to get out of it. Sometimes I'll take care of him and then ask for a back rub or foot rub for my 'treat.' I should be thrilled, cos it's awesome, but I simply can't get past the training of my FOO.

So if you really think that is part of her issue, the ONLY way she'll be able to get past it and work on it is if she believes you're her best friend who never will judge her, always let her be honest, and never push her. Can you do that?

Oh, btw, reread LA's post, it will help you immensely.

Sorry to interupt..has anyone ever successfully recovered from this statment in their relationship? FB..I feel for you, going through same exact thing, to the tee. I appreciate everyone's advice as well, thank you, sincerely.

I hear what you all are saying. What I am saying is that I have explored just about every avenue to show her that I love her for her. After everything is said and done, if she is not able to reciporcate, I can't be with her. If she is unable to see my intention as true commitment she is either blind or does not love me. If we go through this conflict and our issues get ironed out, wow. If this keeps repeating itself, I have to bail as it is truly futile. I DO LOVE HER FOR HER. She told me that she wanted me to cheat on her and I didn't. She told me she didn't want children, I told her that being with her was more important to me than passing on my bloodline. She has given me every opportunity to bail, I didn't. I would protect her with my life. I would met any of her needs if she would just tell me. If this isn't love, I truly don't know what women want and I am truly a dumb and hopeless man. I have told her all of this again and again, over the course of 17 years. If she wants to throw this away for an affair...so be it, I won't stop her. I can't waste energy and focus on something that MIGHT be true. That is called being paranoid. Paranioa breeds fear, resentment and weakness. If she wants to throw it away for fantasy entitlement...so be it. I don't deserve that and any sensible person would see that for face value. I'm not thinking sensibly because I love her...this is wait drives me to try and make things right.

FB,


Sounds to me like you went straight to blame and fault. Then justifications.

How is that really working for you?

My reactivity was from hearing/feeling your pain in your post...your anger and despair. Not blaming or faulting you. I asked you questions I would really like an answer to...so I can know your real beliefs...not shoulds or shouldn'ts. Those are not real.

We all have emotions. We are all human. Changing our behaviors only comes from changing our beliefs...even the fake it 'til you make it works long enough for you to see what you were really believing before and changing it. It collapses when you don't change your beliefs.

Which is why it becomes a resentment fest or awesome freedom.

There is the very real possibility you do not want to know your wife. And she may not really want to know you. That's important to know in yourself and where that's coming from in you.

I believe we do what you did until we wake up, become aware. Solving people is dangerous...they aren't problems. When you treat another person as a problem, you treat yourself the same way. Can't go just one way.

It's draining...when you focus on making yourself to know others, then you have the double benefit of becoming safe for YOU to know yourself...not for blaming, shaming or failing. I believe both you and your wife are great mates...each of you have the same struggles inside...sharing those halves the pain, doubles the joy.

I want that for your marriage very much.

I do not doubt you have explored every avenue with your focus on her, to get her to...not you. Which is why I'm asking you who you really are, what your code is...if you experience my focus back on you, where only you have real control, as a heavy, intrusive light beam in your face...think of how your wife feels with your focus on her...most likely, the same.

Her fear of failing, experience of it, is not within your control. Your fear of failing her, your experience as if you are, isn't real either.

You can't fail her.

She can't really fail you.

You both desire connection otherwise, one or the other of you wouldn't stay present for these devastation communications.

I was serious about the exercises...I believe they saved my marriage as much as MB...because Harley's rule of Being Good Friends of Conversation is crucial to all of his advice. I wasn't a good friend, wasn't safe, and it was my own fear causing me.

Not DH. Not my FOO. Just me.

She is reciprocating...think about this...if she wasn't at all (all or nothing signal), then she wouldn't be there with you...she would have left...and she certainly would have left the R talk within a couple of minutes. She wouldn't have revealed some of her stuff to you...can you see her bravery?

Can you see your own?

You choose to stay married to her or not. There is going to be repeated conflict throughout your life...if you learn to connect through it, deepen intimacy and be safe, then you'll thrive. If you want to avoid conflict, iron it out smooth so it doesn't repeat, then no matter who you are with, you will be disappointed and not get what you want. Humans are complex, intensely complex...there is no right person out there for you...there's you being a great partner.

If you continue to embrace DJs in your life, then all your relationships will continue to suffer. You will suffer. I don't know how else to phrase that...DJs hurt ourselves and others. A lot of our emotions come directly from them, signalling us to see what belief (DJ) is behind it and if it's real or imaginary. Assumptions aren't real. Our brains do not know the difference.

JustLearning was the poster who pointed out my DJs when I came here...maybe he could help you, too? Having them pointed out HELPED me tremendously...I had no idea I had control over my life experience...or how much I hurt myself and pointed at my DH.

Your choices remain yours...if you choose to bail, you bail. No one can make you.

You love her for her real self? Or her self image? The self she tries to show you and hide the one she doesn't believe you could love?

Every single moment, we can choose to bail out on our own vows, our marriages...both partners have that power...and each day they don't, they are choosing not to do so. Your wife hasn't bailed. We all live in that tenuous reality...even in our thriving marriages.

Doesn't bother me. I'll be okay with or without my DH. What he does, says, thinks, believes, perceives really is about him...not me. I hear his innermost stuff and he hears mine...not to cure or fix...to know. Our experience is of allies, side by side, in each other's corner.

Recently I assumed something that wasn't true...and I did the old school accusation "You failed" thing...and he was really hurt, full of self-doubt...and then I caught and checked myself nearly immediately (couple of minutes) because I had that "old" anger going...and found out I was wrong, wasn't even a thing, a problem...my assumption...and I felt awful, too. I looked him in the eye, saying, "I am so sorry on so many levels." And he
said "I felt really awful, like I did do that" and he looked me in the eye, we kissed and hugged...even though we didn't feel like it in that moment...I apologized again.

What I didn't realize until I was writing this post to you, FB, was even though I went into old...and DH felt old awful...he didn't do old awful...the silent treatment, the mockery/shaming...the old reactions of distancing to punish/protect. We went on...and talked about it again a day later...and now, two weeks later. Four years I'm still realizing how much we have changed.

Would you really meet any of her ENs? Would you meet her EN of safe communication...experiencing you as really hearing, understanding what she says, validating her stuff as hers...safely? Without judgment or refuting?

We refute when we fear.

We dismiss and discount when WE fear.

That's how we make others' stuff about us, and not hear or know them. Reacting to fear.

Do you experience her words as facts? "If she really feels that way, then I'm not safe?" So you try to change her thought, her feeling, her belief, heck, her theory to make you safer?

You're already safe, FB.

I believe you love deeply and completely, FB. You're made from love. It's your fear and how much you fear I see as getting in the way of feeling deeply and completely loved, FB.

Again...I urge you to do all you can to ascertain the truth of an affair or not...17 years of tiny resentments can stack up to the sky...and that's her choice to create and maintain those...wasn't you, 'k?

You have accumulated your own. They are what send in the DJs to protect you, up your urge to control, change her stuff...her choices. Clearing yours out helps your own clarity, lessens greatly your reactivity, and helps you really stop assuming your life and begin to live freely.

Ascertaining truth is never a waste of energy or focus. It's your responsibility. Not to get out of her...to know for yourself to the best of your ability. You made a promise to yourself to hire a PI and you broke your own promise. Your choices matter as much as hers does...that equality doesn't stop.

You don't deserve infidelity--no one does, ever. Doesn't work that way...you aren't bad, wrong, messed up or the bad guy, either. Answering who you really want to be...if you want to react to your feelings or act to your code, up to you.

That's the change which made all the difference. No matter the outcome, you shine. Depends on your choice. Eliminating your LBs is healthy and enables you to love yourself more, stop abandoning your own self, and feel incredibly loved.

Choices, not a condition.

Know each other new today, FB. You can do that. It's a great choice.

LA

I read 3/4 of the 5 love languages today by Chapman. It is such a great book! It is like a Rosetta Stone to me. I failed to meet her emotional needs for such a long time. Then I withdrew when she didn't meet mine. I would force my 2 primary love languages on her, which would appear to be totally different from her 2 primary languages. Then wonder why she didn't respond. Would seem as if listening and quality time would be my wife's #1 by far. I'm guessing service is a close #2. I had the privilidge of seeing my wife's family dynamics before we were married. Her mother was always spending time/doing services for her when she was younger. It is so crystal clear to me now that withdrawing from her only twisted a knife into her and made her feel unloved. Just as lack of physical intimacy twisted her knife into me. I believe verbal is a very important language to me. I was frequently criticized by my father for not doing well in school. He would praise my for doing well. The only way I could gauge my father's love was verbally. My wife will praise me, but not often. In fact, just about everytime my wife has given me verbal affirmation I can remember it fondly(and I remember getting warm fuzzies and feeling so special). The effect is 2-fold in social situations. I need to ask my wife to read this book. Either way, I am inspired today.

Hi,

I wrote before, am going through same experience, and know where FB is at. It is really hard! To change my whole perspectives on myself, while hopeing she doesn't leave.

I appreciate all the advice given to FB as I have been trying to use it as well. (hope all of you don't mind):)

I have made many of the same mistakes in this process as FB as well.

I am at the point to hire a PI, and feel guilty about it. Like I am being mistrustful to my wife if I do. Especially if the PI doesn't find anything. Where do I go from there? Do I tell her I hired a PI to be honest with her? Do I not tell anyone ever, and fell like I have trust issues?

I wouldn't post this here, if it might not help FB too. Not trying to steal post.

Again, thxs for all the advice, sincerely.

And FB, I'm right there with you. The day I became "just a friend" was July 2, 2008, a day before my birthday. It's been a horrible summer so far. Hang in there, I'm trying to.

FB,

Thank you for sharing your inspired day. I admire you for reaching out and reading...you did that. You're the mover and shaker for you.

Makes sense to me that words of affirmation would be potent for you...which may be why her words "once she said" stay with you...you hold all her words close, as you did your father's...what hurts and what soars, mixed in. They are important to you.

WWB - same thing...how do you release just the statements which tore your heart out and keep the ones which made you feel whole? I don't believe you can hold onto both...they really were statements about your wives...what we say, even when it sounds about others, shares about us. Our opinion...our wishes, our perception...we see you (pause here) as <blank>...doesn't make you blank, makes you perceived...seen. Your wives SEE you. Stop there. That's the fact portion.

I hope you both know how hard I have held onto statements...four years ago, DH called me on it...said why do you do that...remember every word? I answered, "From fear, not from love." Gotta tell you I forget readily now...I'm not afraid of being wrong, having wrong feelings, thoughts or beliefs...so I don't need to record his words and use them against him...I don't need to rile myself up with old sentences he once spoke, which I made about myself...used to distance us and focus on lack, instead of my abundance.

I used to hate the answer, "I forgot" so much I would make sure I remembered, in detail, everything. I set my feet in cement, didn't I? It's as valid to tell yourself "She's not saying that now" as to say, "She once said..." isn't it?

LA

Having a weird fun day today. I woke up with the intentions of breaking out of my mold, doing things for the sake of doing things differently. I've been on call for work 11 days straight...this is my day off. Work called my cell phone and left a message...needing me to do something. My standard reaction would be to guilt myself into replying and complying what they needed. I knew they would get along quite well without me. So I didn't reply, because I didn't want to do it. I feel a little guilt but it is fading away the longer the day goes on. I went to the bank and got my hair cut. If something came to my mind, I would share it with the people around me. Before I would hold my thoughts and beliefs to myself because I always thought they could really never be interesting to others. I would be selfish with my thoughts....my thoughts...nobody understands them but me. Entitlement and selfishness. And also very lonely. I just decided that if I was going to live as a social being I needed some conflict. Not always bad conflict, it won't kill me and it will most likely be exciting at least...stop fearing (or at least stop gearing my mind to fear). You know what I observed? People seemed to be drawn to me, what I was saying, like bugs to a light. I would stop the conservation as if there was nothing left to be said.....and people would keep it going as if they wanted to explore deeper to what I thought. I have ideas, thoughts...stuff that is stimulating and thought provoking. But people don't understand so I shouldn't bother with them (my old way of thinking). I did things different for the sake of doing things different, as I grow tired of the ways things have been. My perception of what was going on today, but it's been a fun day anyway. Perhaps this has been part of the problem with our relationship. We have been in a rut and need some spontaneous thinking to get the ball rolling. Anybody else have a similiar revelation in their conflicts?

Wow, that's awesome!

One of the things I tell people the most is to get out of their rut, to try something new, cos you have to keep life interesting to stay invested in it, right? Try a new restaurant, new hobby, new museum, new park, whatever. Good for the soul.

Hey Hey....WantWifeBack...no I don't think you are stealing my post. In some weird way we are brothers, bonded together by going through the same crap. I'd be very interested to hear your progress, so keep me posted if you don't mind. I am sad that you are going through the same situation, but happy to hear I'm not alone in my struggles. Stay strong.

And stop trying to fear. Would your wife leaving you kill you? It would hurt but it wouldn't kill you. This might help your outlook on things.

Hey thxs for feedback FB. No, if she left it wouldn't kill me . It just hurts alot. Since nothing is working, I got a spy program and see shes in communication with an ex-coworker about going out when I'm at work. Still not real proof, so I hired a PI. I feel guilty as sin, like I'm betraying her trust, but I have to know if my efforts are fruitless, because another man is taking over. The fact that she be having an affair doesn't hurt as much as the fact that she may not have any love left for me. I will keep working on myself, and try to ignore the big whole in my chest

Many people on the forum would commend you on hiring a PI. I'm personally not going to hire one. Some people see it as "dropping the ball" on my part. I don't care if she is cheating. I'll turn over that stone myself when and if I stubble upon it. I'm working on myself. I'm by her side, and visible. Staring it in the face if it will do the same for me. I'm willing to love her....give her the world, but I don't need her. Maybe I dropped the ball. That is my decision to make. I have felt weak and powerless. I have blamed, felt rejected and greived. Unloved. I know now that nothing is black and white. But I am not afraid anymore.