Just an apology for the wall of text.
I'm 33 years old and married to my 31 year old wife. My wife is beautiful, smart and my pride-and-joy. We have been married for 7 years now with no children. We are highschool sweethearts. We both have successful jobs and seemingly look like a perfect couple in many aspects. I have told my wife numerous times she is my best friend. I remember a time when we got along perfectly pre and post marriage. Of course we had our ups and downs but something drastic has happened. My wife has undergone a gradual and subtle change over the last few years. She has become distant and reacts in what I would call a "cold" manner towards me. Sex has never been something my wife has excelled at, but in the beginning it was manageable. The longer time went on, the more infrequent the sex became. When asked about the problem, my wife would say it was just her and that maybe something was wrong biologically. The more I pressed the subject, the more angry and resentful she became. She would say things like "that's all you want from me". Granted when men pressure women to have sex they can feel this way...my problem is that 2/week for sex was the max frequency which it occurred and never more than 2 weeks in a row. Lately it came down to sex maybe once/2 months. I consider myself a patient and considerate man, not one to ask for sex unrealistically. I was more hurt that she seemed to be disinterested in intimacy rather than I was not getting my needs fulfilled. Eventually I felt so frustrated and rejected I pressed her until she talked. My wife says that she loves me "like a brother" or "like a friend" but not like a husband. This revelation has devastated me to the point where saving my marriage has consumed me. We have started marriage counselling and during the first session my wife said that "I'm a great guy" and she does not know why she is feeling the way she is. She also revealed that she secretly wished that I would have cheated on her so that she would have a reason to be angry with me. What my wife has said started a circle of emotions that has slowly started to make me crazy. I love my wife more than anything....it is the reason I commited to marriage. When asked why she committed my wife said "I thought my feelings would change". The fact that she has committed to counselling is promising to me. The things that she has told me in the last week has made me so depressed, I almost quit my job without warning in the first 2 days of my grieving phase. Thoughts like "what if she didn't really love me in the first place?", "I should have seen the symptoms earlier and acted on them....why was I so blind?", "is there truly any hope since she obviously she has been feeling this for some time?". I feel rejected, weak and as if my world has been turned upside down. I feel this treatment is not fair since I have been asking her to express herself for years without success. Therefore I also feel used. These are very harsh emotions due to the way I formerly felt about my wife. I felt if everything was going bad, at least my wife was there to support me. When asked why she is not taking it as badly, my wife says that she has been grieving for much longer and therefore it is not as severe for her. I feel that I should be stronger, but it hurts me so much. I cry frequently during the day. When I look for comfort from my wife she says that she can't go through a therapy session every night with me because "she will go crazy". I just feel alone so here I am. I need support or advice.

I hope some of the vets will come along with help. But I have to say that I see a couple of huge red flags that your wife could be involved in an affair, either emotional or physical and maybe both.

When a woman is sexually interested in another man, it pushes hubby to that dreaded back burner of "brother-like love".

Also, her comment that she wishes YOU would have an affair. I know of no woman who has EVER wished her husband to be unfaithful, unless she was unfaithful, at least in her heart. It is usually a ploy to lessen her own guilt by forcing you to share guilt.

Have you seen any signs that she might have interest in another man? Does she have a lot of unexplained time away from home? A lot of time on the phone or online?

I hope I'm wrong. There could be other things going on, but adultery is at least one possibility.

I have suspected an affair for a long time. Every time I ask my wife about this she says that she is not. I agree that there is every indication that an affair is going on. I suspect it might be emotional and my wife won't admit to it. Either because she does not know what an emotional affair is or does not see an emotional affair as cheating. She says that it is highly insulting to her that I would even suggest an affair. I don't think it is physical if there is something going on. Either way I don't think it's constructive at this point to continue down that accusational path. My wife seems to react much better when I keep things positive so that is what I'm going to do for now. Perhaps she just wants more reinforcement that a marriage commitment is the right decision. I believe in order to do this I must train myself to point out all the good things in our life...and to lead by example rather than throwing out accusations. On a positive note I threw out a great big hello when she got home from work today. Although she looked at me crazy, I got a big smile from her. It is such reactions that give me a sparkle of hope. I massaged her feet because I knew she had a rough day. I am going to try my damnest to make this transition on our lives a positive one, even if it comes down to separation. It's not how we fall, but rather how we pick ourselves up off the floor that defines our character.

Welcome to Marriage Builders, FB...

I'm really glad you found us and sorry to hear why you're here.

KIR is right on in the affair red-flag department. There is another one in your post I'd like to point out...

The heart-hearting statement of "I thought my feelings would change" is what a wayward spouse does we call "rewriting marital history" here.

To find out if she's having an affair, you don't ask. You don't accuse. What you do is obtain the truth independently. You check cell phone bills, emails, go through your head about coworkers, groups she may belong to (recreationally or clubs); you talk to her friends and family and to your own family.

There's a formula I share from a great MB poster named Gimble:

An affair is the embodiment of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.

I call it a formula because it's true that a spouse can get "foggy" from this formula without actually being in an affair with a person--it's when the partner creates and nourishes their own resentment into entitlement...you'll hear "I want to be happy" as a goal, for instance. The resentment along blocks out sharing her stuff (thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions and perspective) with you.

Which is why you can't get her to tell you she's having an A. Please do not try. Even if you need to hire a PI, independently verify if she is or isn't...because with resentment, you can be in love with it enough, through lack of respect, to compare you in her head to a ficticious man in the future; still feels real, feeds her resentment today, and generates a lot of fog.

You say you asked over the years for her to express what's on her mind, in her heart, what she believed and experienced. I hear you saying she chose not to--so she blocked intimacy. Have you gone over all the Love Busters Dr. Harley describes on this website? Think about what you HAVE heard her say...annoying habits, wanting you to read her mind correctly as feeling loved or not wanting you to mindread; if you withdraw when you feel hurt (or mindread).

These LB's are laid out so well, they cover just about everything. Think about them in terms of what she may experienced as an LB...and then read the Emotional Needs and see which ones you think are her top ones...best guesses count.

Have you read The Five Languages of Love by Gary Chapman? If not, please do so, along with Dr. Harley's His Needs, Her Needs, as soon as possible.

Is your MC versed in Dr. Harley's guidelines for great marriages? There are free questionnaires on this website for the ENs, the LBs, and one I think you will like right away, the Recreational Inventory...because Dr. Harley advises at least 20 hours plus per week of Undivided Attention (UA) together, and I experienced breaking down my own resentment best in playing again together...sharing new experiences (the inventory is marvelous) together...which is how we came together originally.

Sounds to me like you're already doing your own Plan A...please do it with respect to self and to your wife. By that I mean, do listen and repeat, so when she spews from her resentment, you listen, repeat what you heard, and hand back her stuff as hers. I know you wanted to know her stuff for years...hearing it now may hurt a lot...you already nailed how you were hurting yourself with your DJs in your head. Don't go there. Be present respectfully to hear and understand, not to take on her perspective. She's got your truth and you have your own. The truth is actions.

Get to know the difference. Resentment/entitlement stamps down all loving feelings because you stop acting from your choice to love your partner. It was your choice all along--and acting from our love gives us loving feelings.

Not the other way around.

Stand for your marriage, FB...act from your choice to love and do not do the relationship talk except at a scheduled time for 20 minutes a week. Period. The rest is listening, striving first to understand, then be understood...it's knowing her new again...for all of us are new every day...and in marriage, when after seven years we are where we do not know where we end and our partner begins (natural enmeshment), getting where you believe and act as the separate and equal humans you are is important.

As for you creating resentment...in my experience, the love affair with resentment comes long before we meet our mates...comes from our family of origin (FOO). Might give you some clues as to what you're really dealing with--because Plan A is about bringing reality...which includes if you do discover an affair, exposing it. The goal of Plan A is to bust up the A so your partner can establish and maintain no contact, go through withdrawal, and begin working on the marriage.

If there isn't an affair (and you prove through all your creative ways of snooping there is not for sure), then consider calling the Harleys for counseling. Dr. Harley says there are three states of marriage--Intimacy, Conflict and Withdrawal. Since the formula works to throw up humungous walls, a deep Withdrawal is more harmful than Conflict is...don't take anything lightly, 'k?

Also, is she a member of classmates dot com or some other reunion-esque site? Be sure to check out old BFs and even those from high school who reconnect.

Please know you are not alone. We've been where you are, felt crushed and alone, and we really were not. So many on this forum are at different stages of what you're experiencing right now. We do save our marriages...by standing for them. By self-examination and not owning what isn't ours...and being sure to know what is ours and doing amends.

Eliminating your LBs is the first step, I think. For every 20 love deposits you may make, one single LB withdraws that many. Snooping is not an LB...sharing your stuff isn't an LB, either. In the fog you may hear a lot of stuff that isn't real...up to you to find the kernel of truth and be careful not to swallow the rest of it, 'k?

You're here and striving, FB. Give yourself kudos and take heart...you are half of the marriage. She's the other half...equal power and limits, 'k?

You can do this.

LA

Trying hard. I brought my wife out to eat at a restaurant that I knew she liked. Trying hard not to make withdrawals from LB, although it's hard at times as she likes to provoke me. The hardest part is putting in 100% while she seems to just be lethargic about the whole thing. She is making an effort, she is just not working as hard as I am. Maybe with more LB deposits I'll get the response I need.

As far as snooping, I've done my share. It's a little difficult since the only email she uses is through work with a password, her cell phone is through work so her bills don't come to the house and she spends alot of time at work at the same time I'm responsible for my work. I'm really starting to think that she became emotionally withdrawn from me, which in turn manifested as the classic signs of infidelity. Her disrespect of my needs was a cry for help. However at the same time she was not open with her needs or feelings...and like you said it's hard to mindread. The blame can't be laid on one single person as I have ignored the signs. Even though she doesn't beleive in counselling she is aggreable to it....the single strongest sign that she wants to make it work.

Thank you for responding, FB.

Yes, it does sound like you're limited to snooping in the most obvious ways.

You say she is working when you're working. Is there any time you leave work that you could go to her work, like on lunch, or on the way to your work, and take flowers? A favorite muffin or coffee?

Where you begin popping in at her work twice a week for a love deposit drive-by? That gives you presence at her work as her husband...and a small act of service (which can make big deposits)...think of things she liked when you were first dating...speak her language.

Also, gives you an opportunity to see her car in the lot, possibly? Even if you drive by, through, without stopping? So like after work, when she works late? Sometimes with A's at work they walk out to the car, talking...

Going to lunch together may take a lot of work on your part...something you might consider doing though, to sync once a week or once every two weeks?

I'm thinking of the companionable time...like you did taking her to a restaurant...stop kicking your own tushie by measuring her response...focus on your own acts...to be present with her, aware, not an agenda to get to do/think/feel/believe anything.

That's part of Plan A...which seems apt while you independently seek the truth...because our acts of love help our own love banks when the usual deposits aren't being made. Protects our weaknesses...no mindreading, no assumptions...and to kick those to the curb, no expectations.

Any mutual couple friends who might help you if they are related to her work?

I'm glad you're seeing the balance in how you got to this point right now...not all her (her withdrawal) and not all you...it's always half and half, I promise.

Since she spends a lot of time at work, I am thinking this might give you the best opportunity...and may require getting relatives or friends when they are near her work to jog through it on their way...not through the building, 'k? I mean more eyes open...A's really can't be hidden when we're looking.

Also, think about mindreading (not really love, comes from fear) and blame...have to take it, can't be given...and see if removing those from your thoughts and beliefs may help relieve you right now of deep fear. You're on the job! You're active and aware...that's fantastic, FB.

You can check her work cell if she brings it home...no, it's not as great as seeing a bill, still, you can check it when she's not looking...check the call logs, missed calls, see if you can determine the few numbers called a lot. I think you can even see in some models how time duration of calls.

This can be a good indicator, especially if she takes calls at home and walks away, into another room or outside to talk.

Have you downloaded and seen the Recreational Inventory yet? Getting in those hours of Undivided Attention (UA) per week is super important. In crisis, make it 20 hours minimum..which means more creativity...more new experiences together, 'k? You can plan, offer what you've come up with and not base your feelings on her response.

You can share your excitement, curiosity, playfulness, 'k? You have it in you. Share more of who you are, your stuff...and listen and repeat when she speaks.

Don't look at her signs to see if she wants to make it work...because she's with you right now, she's choosing you and she's going to MC, too. Ask the MC about those communication (verbal and non-verbal) exercises...they can be part of the UA time.

Stay very, very present and aware. Give your energy to creative ways to be together, play together, connect without R talk, and to find out the truth regarding an A. Get enough sleep and eat healthy foods to up your energy (when you get drained the LBs are harder to not do).

LA

Thanks for all the great advice. I truly believe that I am seeing positive results. My wife never really was high maintenance and I think a little goes a long way. I think it was the trait of low-maintenance that got me so distanced in the first place. That is why the revelations that my wife gave me was like a freight train hitting me. It's actually kinda fun to start a semi-courtship over again...and the fear of losing her is motivation enough to keep me focused. I just need to concentrate to never lose it again if I do indeed get her back fully.

I want to put aside the affair issue and talk about restoring your marriage - from what i understand there are 2 things that you need to take care of immediately:
1. Your wife's lack of satisfaction from your marriage.
2. Your wife's lack of respect towards you.

What would i do?
I would start spending more quality time with my wife, making her feel that i truly want to understand her and i truly want to know her needs.
I would take her out once a week and declare this time as our quality time when i m whole there for her.I would buy her flowers once a week and make an effort to compliment her at least once a day about something i liked about her that day.

As far as the respect thing goes - i would try to understand what does my wife see as important and who does she look up to and try my best to fit myself in that spot.

Just my $0.02

Good luck.

Scipio, he can't restore the marriage if he puts aside the affair issue, if there is one. If there is an affair, it is the greatest threat to his marriage, so naturally, he has to rule that out first. And if there is an affair, he needs to know about it so he can do what he can about it.

Do you have any experience with adultery? What is your experience with Marriage Builders? I would point out that this poster is here for help with his marriage using MARRIAGE BUILDERS principles.

Had kinda a rocky day. My wife went to the marriage counselor by herself this week as it was the mc's advice for her to go alone this time. My wife revealed that the mc advised her to seek a MD for anti-depressants. My wife states that it will be weeks before she can see an MD due to work....which is a lame excuse in my opinion becasue she is making time once a week for mc. I really wished that she would get chemical help for her sake and ours. I think she does not want to own up that she is having real issues with depression. My wife was obviously depressed today. She verbalized her disatifaction with her friends and anxiety over a board exam which she is awaiting the results of. She cried and slept alot today. When I would try and comfort her, she would be cold once again. When I asked her why she kepts putting up barriers she states that "it just doesn't feel right" as she is the main problem I am unhappy. Which is not entriely correct...I am unhappy because she is unhappy with me...get it? I tried to convince her that doesn't matter...when I see somebody that I love hurting, I will put away resentmeent in order to help the person in need. This didn't seem to help things, as my wife has this "you are such a better person than me...I just suck...I am the problem" attitude lately. Do you think that her issues could be primarily mental illness related? I starting to see a strong link with possible mental illness as being the prime nucleus of our current hardships. Just FYI her brother is a chronic manic depressive and her uncle is currently in a mental facility seeking treatment for suicidal ideations.

Has your wife said to you "I love you but am not in love with you?"

That is basically what she is saying.

I m sorry for being misunderstood - I didnt mean not to deal with the affair, but there were enough good tips on the affair thing so i thought to give another angle.

Counselling left me emotionally drained today. My wife revealed that she does not fell passion towards me anymore. Guess I pretty well knew this but it slices like razor when you actually hear it. I have stayed focused and optimistic, while she is still failing to meet me halfway. Guess I have to keep my chin up though. I can't force her to love me, but I have to not give her any reasons not to.

FB,

I understand you're drained and cut at the same time.

I wanted to share that I said those same words to my DH five years ago. Do you know what my lack of passion for him was about? It was from my own resentment, built into entitlement from a lack of respect. I blocked my own passion, appreciation, connection and love...and pointed at him doing it to me.

Please don't take the bait. Not real. Her passion for you was always hers. Take heart and re-center yourself (skooch a little to your left), breathe and know you don't control her stuff right now, 'k? She's blocking you.

Feel your own passion for your marriage, for experiencing a thriving, committed, connected one in your future.

Stay alert to her patterns...depression can be anger turned inward...sure would block a lot out, wouldn't it? And keep checking for any online or real life attachments...don't let yourself down...you're seeking the truth for your marriage.

Love is there...just blocked. Believe it.

I'm so sorry you're going through this right now. You're not alone.

LA

Wow Loving, you have had such words of reason in my time of trouble. I just want you to know that I truly appreciate the time that you take and your input. I'm hoping that this conflict will actually help our relationship and make things better. Worse case scenario we can bail before we hit the iceberg. My parents are ultra realist and are hinting that I should bail before I go crazy. I'm definitely more right-brained so I need to find some truth somewhere in the middle. Do you think speaking with her mother would be a good option? My personal feelings is that it would help me understand the situation better but would be seen as an act of desperation by my wife. I think that lack of respect is fueling her fire so I the last thing I want to do is seem weak and pathetic at this point.

I wouldn't talk to her mother. It will be viewed as you trying to recruit her mother to your side, and she could very well resent you for that.

Have you hired a PI yet to see what she does when she's not around you? Where she goes at lunch? With whom? Many affairs take place on lunch hours.

Everything seems to be pointing in the same direction. As much as I want to believe that she isn't having an affair, nothing really makes sense to me anymore. Guess I need to hire a PI. I'm off work Friday so I'll look into it then.

FB,

Great choice. Seriously. Whether she is or isn't...your knowledge of the truth is worth it. You'll feel better when you act bravely, I promise.

LA

My wife seems to be opening more verbally and overall seems to be removing some of her walls. Been making an effort to spend time with her and stay positive. However, my wife is still very much blocking initimacy/sex. It was the suggestion of the marriage counselor this week for my wife to show more interest with intimacy. Although my wife states that she is dead passion-wise for me, the counselor suggested that loving acts might create loving feelings. The counselor was saying that my wife should not block intimacy completely as this would be counterporductive. My wife was agreeable to this tactic, however has shown little effort to act on it. I am so afraid to even ask for sex due to fear of rejection and fear that it will bring up bad feelings within my wife. Should I ask her for sex or wait her out? It is so painful to me since I just want my wife to feel the same way I do about her. I have made my feelings regarding this abundantly clear in the past. I'm afraid that if she keeps this coldness up I will be more and more tempted just to say "to hell" with it. I hope this conflict has not created a permanent rift in our relationship. It's sometimes hard to keep a positive attitude in this situation when I feel that she is fully aware of how painful this is for me, but continues with her cold ways. What are some of your suggestions?

Asking for SF at this point would be closer to rape than intimacy. Intimacy means a lot of things - holding hands in the mall; sitting close enough to touch on the couch while you watch tv; getting her a cup of tea; letting her put her head on your shoulders; rubbing her feet after a long day; asking her what she thinks about a friend's vacation...do you see the difference between intimacy for women and intimacy for men? Women need to know you're interested in us; men need to know we're willing to have SF with you. Neither is wrong, but we get our good feelings in different ways. Have you read Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus? I don't agree with all of it, but it does give us a pretty good insight into the differences. It might help you.

Well I just went ahead and asked last night because I don't know what to do. My wife says that she wants me to ask for intimacy. I knew it was late so I didn't expect anything at the time...and I made this clear. She followed up by holding me while we feel asleep. It was a gesture that meant alot to me.

Did you get a PI hired last Friday?

LA

Unfortunately no. Some stuff came up and I wass unable to. I know I should have made it a priority, but I just didn't get to it. I get so frustrated... I could never put her through what I'm going through. That she is just sitting around watching me suffer seems so alien and sociopathic. Not the woman I married and fell for. But then again, I guess that woman loved me back then. No matter what I try, say or do it seems like I'm hitting my head against a brick wall and then getting up and doing it again. If I don't break before this is all over it's going to be a miracle.

Things seem to go from bad to worse. Every time I talk about our relationship she reveals things that are very painful to me. Every time she reveals new information she seems to be slipping away more and more. Now my wife is saying that she has felt very little to no passion for me since the beginning. She says that is why our sex life has been so bad. She says that she stayed with me for so long and married me because I was a "good guy" and a "good thing". She says she didn't want to tell me for fear of hurting me. She says that her ultimate hope was to just skate through our marriage indefinitely without being passionate and hope that I wouldn't be unhappy. She states that it is not fair to me, and that is why she decided to tell me. Not really the truth as I threatened either 1)divorce or 2)counselling when I could tell something was wrong and she just wouldn't tell me. I have supported my wife for years during school, an internship and residency. I moved a number of times to follow her career. I have shown endless selflessness and support for her carerr and what she wanted to do. Truth is I would have been back in school an eon ago if it were not for this marriage. All this information is coming on the brink of her getting a promotion and a serious income upgrade. I feel so betrayed that my love for her is now fading. I feel unloved and used. I told her that sex with her is meaningless if she does not feel the same way towards me (and it's the truth). All I have ever watned from her was to show me the love that I have shown her. I do not see how I can be "so great" if she does not feel passion towards me. Everytime I ask her what I could do different to make steps forwards she says "I don't know". She says that she is so guilty that she does not know what to do. She says that she is unable to show support because she is so depressed. Ultimately I told her that this is so exhausting to me that she will have to meet me halfway. I feel that I have been overstetching my boundaries and trying to convince somebody that they love me when they really don't. I need reinforcement that what I am doing is having results....if I don't...I am out. I can't be hovering around like a pathetic beat dog, getting beat down and then getting back up for more...it's driving me to the brink of insanity. As much as I love her, I'm thinking it's time for ME to let her go.

FB,

I'm replying to your post backwards. Just a heads up.




DJs are tough...they assume what you don't know. It's like when we were growing up we made these secret vows to ourselves which made perfect sense at 6, 11, 18...and when we hit 25, 30 and 40...the experience of what we feared most isn't what we thought, and we don't hold to those old vows. Because we have years of adult experience we didn't have when we made those vows.

Those promises can kick your heart to a pulp if you aren't aware. Like you saying you could never treat her as she is treating you...the resentment from disconnection and infidelity within an emeshed relationship can very well have you treating her horridly in six months of this abuse. You won't know until you get there...because it isn't like you switch from being yourself...it creeps up, like resentment, and you won't see it overtake you.

Change your thoughts with reality...you are not hitting your head against a brick wall...you are routinely conditioned to basing your choice of action upon possible response. You've been living backwards by doing that all your life. Crisis breaks that routine...because we really cannot live based on possible response when the response becomes that which isn't reasonable, understandable or predictable. Part of the alien package we're seeing in your WW's mindset.

You won't break. In fact, you'll discovery you ARE a miracle...that's if you do the work, change your choice to stop betraying yourself by choosing your actions based on possible response (it's a constant negation of self we point to others as doing to us); and begin choosing your actions based on your goals and your code...and let the outcome go.


I know this was a vent...and know well how needed it is to blow off the steam, share your frustration, pain, fear and anger. I'm pointing out your self-DJs and those in your marriage because you are sabotaging yourself...doubles your pain, anger, frustration and fear. That's not what you want.

Reach for reality with both hands...highest priority. To know the truth gives you the true power of choice, enables you to make a plan...and stop feeling powerless and crazy. Be good to yourself. Hire the PI right away.

LA

FB,

Limit relationship (R) talk to once per week for only 20 minutes...at a regularly scheduled day and time. Plan A isn't talking about your R...it's acting from your love, acting love...RC, FC, DS, conversing where you listen and repeat...practicing to break your enmeshment so you can inject respect into your relationship; so you can experience it.

Remember a wayward state of mind...resentment distorts...and she's rewriting her marital history. You hang onto yours, 'k? Hers is hers and she didn't feel this way before...she isn't revealing withheld truths...just seems that way to her to justify crushing pain into her partner...and since she doesn't know where she ends and you begin, she may feel entitled to crush that pain into you harder, to punish, in a way, herself--the doormat she chooses to see herself as in the past. She's recreating who she was from her own disgust.

Only, you loved her and weren't disgusted with her. Hang onto that, 'k?

Her "stuff" is NOT your stuff. Her opinions--thoughts, perceptions, beliefs, perspective and feelings are HERS...not The Truth, just her truth. Listen and repeat it back...put a hopper on your head and do not allow her words to come into your brain until you've kept your promise to yourself to RESPECT her stuff as hers...strain it for what is hers, and repeat to hand it back...acknowledge, validate her stuff...and leave your stuff intact.

She fell in love with you because she grew to know she chose mates horribly...she loved in you what she refused to see in herself...she doesn't believe she was safe to be your mate, she knew she did harm, was capable of crushing pain into others when they deserved it...and she found solace, comfort, freedom in taking you as completion of her...and it will be the your undoing.

She had to come to hate your safeness...like a promise fulfilled...and her unhappiness and penchant to create and build resentment...because how you can resent that which you loved most? Believe me, you can...for it points again to how unsafe she is to herself and others. Right back where she was before she met you...so it's gotta be your fault, see?

Because you were "better" than her, your goodness could redeem, be incorporated into her...what good guy would want such a bad woman? She had to be good somewhere in her, did she, if you loved her? Inequality is inequality...your good choices say nothing about who she is...nor her terrible choices about who you really are. You're both equal. Keep that in mind and don't play her superior/inferior game, 'k? I promise you, she picked you to be her lifetime partner to work out her FOO issues...you are her match, just as she is yours.

And her self-image which rests on her accomplishments, is saying now you're not good enough, etc...and you hold onto know you know you are...we all are...we are all enough. Her perception has changed as her stuff changes...it's about her, from her, for her. Not you, 'k?

At any point, had she made you her true focus, she could have felt great passion for you, and she CAN. Up to you to hold and believe that. It's true. You can feel passionate for her, again, too.

Please read "Mulan" poster's threads...she's a BW and her WH...and I think you might find some simliarities in her threads...she's a very good writer in her posts...she's studied a lot and is a vet here on MB. You can search under her screen name.

Ascertain the truth about infidelity or not...then you can choose to go to Plan B (which may well be Plan D and what she thinks she wants right now) right away. Still is a stand for your marriage, to protect your remaining loving feelings...don't rob your love bank twice, though, by BELIEVING her truth as The Truth. It isn't even close.

The Truth is our actions...facts...reality. She chose to stay with you and accepted you putting her through school. She chooses right now to stay with you. She is present. She is sharing. See reality as it is...and you cannot be a beaten dog...for you are a human being. Hold yourself to that. You are choosing to stand for your marriage, your own goal, to take in and stab yourself with her stuff instead of handing it back, understood, not agreed with; and stabbing yourself with degrading thoughts and assumptions about striving to make someone love you.

You are loved. She chose to love you and act from her love for years. She may not feel love right now from robbing and blocking her own love bank...doesn't mean she doesn't choose you to love. Bank on it--you've seen all parts of her self-image over the years...not just the best parts we are infatuated with in the first stage of marriage...nope, the second phase where we show our warts, our awfulness, our pettiness...you've seen it and have chosen to love her wholeness, anyway.

Good choice. For she has seen all of you, too. Not just your best sides. You are true partners. Know that fact. Even when you act like enemies, see the other as your own source of pain--please hear me, FB--YOU ARE NOT.

That's how effective fantasy is...we can see each other as enemies, attackers...it's the signal one of you IS attacking your marriage. She is right now. You're defending it. It did NOTHING to her. Honor your marriage in this same belief...and do so through choosing to act from your code of respect, love, consideration and honesty, anyway.

Pry your hands off response...it was an illusion. Over and over again when you believed you delighted, wow'd and thrilled her...SHE was doing that, not you. Your acts of love can be shut out and down...keep acting from your choice to love, anyway.

Helps you maintain your loving feelings. It's for right now...not forever...when you feel beat down, check yourself...you're most likely in the future, which isn't here...and that's fantasy. Just like her belief there's anyone better out there for her is fantasy, 'k?

Would you consider you both made your careers your "children"? In marriages where we put our children ahead of the marriage, our marriage fails to hold...there's you, her and The Marriage. So all three are in the top spot in a healthy relationship. When careers, extended families, FOO, friends get into that top spot, then the marriage suffers. You will feel suffering yourself. You're half the marriage.

What if she divorces you and then you find out about an affair at her work? Probably her boss or closest coworker? Will you feel doubly betrayed because you didn't act to know? Will you feel less pain for not knowing? Some validation in her lying to you? I'm not attacking...I was a master at self-deception...kept sabotaging myself from my hidden belief that if I'm a victim, I'm blameless. Which is why I'm on you about ascertaining the truth right now. Do this because you're worth it, your marriage is worth it, and it affects the rest of your life, 'k?

If you will choose to get through this...I promise you will be astonished...to realize you are stronger, love deeper and are more connected to this world and yourself than you thought possible. We only learn this in hindsight...for we fear, and act bravely, we know we ARE brave...we experience ourselves as brave, 'k?

No one can make you a doormat. You are doing a hero's gig right now. Stick to it. Widen your resources...go to Alanon meetings...speak simply and directly of your terrible pain (feels like surgery without anesthesia) to her...own it. It's yours. Breaking enmeshment is essential to getting to the third stage of marriage...mature love. Worth everything, FB. You can do this.

LA

Wow...LA...I am awe-struck by your words. What insistent beauty and strength you present!

FB,
In less glorious words, I think a couple things might be going on. First, I think that an affair is completely possible. She has LOTS of wayward symptoms. But...and this is a BIG but...she also has LOTS of depression symptoms.

Let's just play devil's advocate and say that there isn't an affair and your wife is clinically depressed. She would withdraw from you. She wouldn't be interested in sex. She would be distant and emotional. She might even question her life in general (aka. rethinking why she married you). I think it is POSSIBLE that she has a serious depression and that could explain all of the red flags you are seeing.

As for the idea of an affair...are there any signs that really point you to adultery? Is she secretive about her whereabouts? Do you know where she is throughout the day and who she is with? Does she do a lot of things by herself...going out without you? Are there times that you have asked her about something and her answers just seemed weird or off? I would look at her through the adultery lens and see if anything other than her emotional state with you fits.

With that said, I do think you should snoop. Can you bug her car? Does she have a laptop? If she does, you can install spyware and have it sent to you so that you can see what she does. Do you know anyone that she works with? Could you take time off work to "spot check" at her work? A P.I. is probably the most efficient way. Don't tip your hand that you are doing this or it will be much more difficult.

Good luck.
HTM

Had a really good night last night. Since my wife basically refuses to tell me why she is unhappy with our marriage, I decided to systematically ask her questions about what is making her unhappy. I found out at least one thing: she felt I was totally disinterested in her work and career. She stated that I never show interest in her work, which is not true (but I did my best not to become defensive). She stated that I never show up to her work. I reminded her that I have gone to her work several times, while she has not ever showed up to my work. She followed up with "oh, I guess that's true". I promised that I would make an effort to show interest in her daily work activities and take her out to lunch/bring her lunch when I could. She is friends with 4 couples who all 4 are about to get married within the next few months. I imagine most are in the young honeymoon phase of their relationship and show nice little signs of public affection. I wonder if she sees their actions and gets sad that we are no longer the same way? I gave her a nice foot massage as I knew she had a rough day...and did my best not to make her think I was wanting sex. Which is difficult since foot massages are sensual in themself. But, anyway I believe that I might be learning step by step more about how to please my wife. Have any suggestions gestures/actions/activities to totally take her by surprise and impress her? Come on females....be my secret weapon!

Take her hand while you're walking in the mall. If you go to the food court, give her extra napkins or ketchup. Open the door for her. Let her sit down first, or stand up when she walks in the room. If you get home before her, come greet her with a hug, kiss, and/or great big enthusiastic Hi! Make her favorite food. Plan a picnic. Ask her about work, and actually LISTEN to her! Ask her if she wants to host bridal showers at your home, and offer to help. Ask her what she needs done around the house that has never gotten done. Ask her for her opinion on something. Ask her to take on some task instead of you doing it, such as choosing the color of paint for a room you're painting. Pull out a board game, and invite some friends over to play it. Throw a block party and tell everyone some of the great things she's done lately. Oh, and never NEVER interrupt her. There's a start for you.

I really do my best. It is very exhausting to do things for a person that doesn't seem to appreciate them...or doesn't do kind gestures in return. I know alot of men that do everything for their wives only to have their wives disrespect them in public. I had often thought to myself that these men must be a miserable wreck inside and possibly heading to an early grave. I hope to goodness that this relationship doesn't start looking like one of those. I refuse to be in one of those relationships. I don't mind being "the knight in shining armor"...but having Guineverre spit on you after slaying the dragon... it just seems plan sadistic and unfair.

Well, you DID ask...

Yes I know..and I really appreciate it. I was merely reflecting on my experiences with people I know. I was just stating that I hope that this relationship doesn't turn out like that.

Thanks for the tips Catperson!

Another item that would dually relieve stress and obsessing may be in an activity where you and your wife become jointly involved. For example: Cycling, photography, art appreciation, viewing of show houses, archery....

Take your pick! Acquire a passion, it can become infectious.

FB,

One of the big things I learned during a troubling time of my M I have shared with others here and I will share with you. We have always heard of the need to treat our wives like a queen. I did not treat my wife badly, but through business of life lost that level of treatment. When our M hit an iceberg I determined to treat her like a queen in an effort to save it. What I found during this process was that I was treating her like a queen and she was viewing me as a peasant. I am sure part of that had to do with the fact she was in an affair. However, I began to notice that I had seen quite a number of men in the same situation where they were doing everything for their wives to make them happy and they were treated like cr*p.

I resolved to continue treating her like a queen, but no longer from the standpoint of a peasant - but a king. I can't explain exactly how I conveyed that to her - only that my demeanor was very loving but that of an equal. I was willing to give her the world, but gently and firmly made it clear I expected reciprocation. That was THE turning point in my M's recovery. From that point, her desire to please me began to return. She developed a sense again that she did not want to disappoint me. A healthy sense, not that of somebody inferior to me.

I hope it makes sense and helps.

Yes this is what I am talking about. I am still struggling for my wife to see me as an equal partner. I can't seem to find the right formula that will bring her to see me as she once did. I realize it takes time, but it's hard to be the giver and feel rejected at the same time. Guess this is what being strong is about. Maybe just the act of staying strong during all this poo will make her come through.

My wife played a prank on me today. A fun-loving type of prank. This is the kind of stuff we used to do to each other all the time during happier times. An action/gesture that she really hasn't even attempted since her revealation. It was fun and made me laugh. I was so happy I almost pooped my pants.

Thank you for painting that picture for me!

Sounds great, keep up the good work!

I don't really know how to convey that I want equal treatment. I'm seeing positive results so I don't think I should be entirely disheartened. Do you think I'm still breaking through her barriers and it's still difficult for her to reciprocate? Will there come a time when one gets through these issues and start reciprocating?

FB,

Thank you for the big LOL this morning from your post. I'm delighted you experienced your special marital brand of connection through a prank. Unexpected, eh?

I heard in SBS's wonderful post that how you treat your partner is where your power is...there's no responsibility or power in struggling to get your parnter to treat you in a certain way.

Treat her as your equal--for she is in every way. See her, address her, value her as your equal. Doesn't get her to treat you in the same way...changes your half of the dance, is an act of respect, love and commitment.

Her barriers are hers...she allows or limits your influence. Please know this...just as you work on your stuff, so is she responsible for hers. As you act from your beliefs, the dance will change...and you'll perceive your "treatment" by her differently, even as she does treat you differently.

Everything changes, FB. Depend on it. Why are you asking if there will come a time when...about her actions...are you basing your choice to act from respect, honesty and love right now based on how she will or won't act in the future? Would that make you a slave to fantasy, conjecture, basing yourself on someone else? Or would you act in the future from your own commitment to love, honesty and respect, anyway?

LA

Can relationship talk be a lovebank withdrawal? Everytime I bring up our relationship I seem to be making my wife angry, sad or more distant. I didn't think telling my spouse what's on my mind or asking what is on hers was considered bad. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes it can if it makes her feel bad. Too much, and she'll start avoiding you, to stop feeling bad. Find a better way to get what you need.

It's just hard to do anything productive without direction. Seems like she is in an emotional limbo. She knows that acting like a beast will drive me away. She knows that acting cold is torturing me. Kinda sums up the relationship recently actually. She does not want to let me go but not does want to treat me with respect. She was never one to tell me what would make her happy. I have always been stuck wondering what I needed to do to make our relationship work. As I result I'm just kinda stuck with my thumb up the [censored], staring at the wall for support. Can people be so unhappy with themselves that they find comfort in causing loved ones displeasure?

Of course they can.

But it's much better to take the high road.

Maybe the two of you could agree to start learning how to talk to each other honestly and without judgment and without having to defend yourself. That way, you'll both feel safe to explain what you're going through. You really need to know this stuff - both of you - about the other before you can fix anything.

I expressed how much her lack of passion has hurt me and that all I want is somebody that loves me back. When I ask her why she has lost her passion for me she says "I don't know....I honestly don't. When I find out I will let you know.". Possible she is waiting for the right time to break some horrid news to me. I would just rather her be honest with me at this point. It would cause me alot less pain and confusion to know there is a reason for her feelings.

Talked with my parents about separation. They advised me that it might be a good idea to have some space. Seems like I'm exhausting myself on a concept that might not work anyway. The more I look at my wife in the face, the more I just think about how much I love her while she is unable to feel the same way. If she grows away even more during the separation it might be better than post-poning the inevitiable. If she truly values our love and marriage, maybe it's time for her to show some effort? Everybody I talk with seems to think I'm beating a dead horse. My mother has gone as far to say that she has used me until she got her degree and now is ready to move on. I don't know, what do you all think?

Well, first off, I think you skirted the issue of hiring a PI. Why? Does it make you feel guilty? I see one of two options: She's having an affair or she used you to get through school. If she used you, you might as well cut your losses. But if it's an affair, you can stop the affair and you'll get your old wife back once the OM is out of the picture.

That's why you HAVE to do the PI. Not to punish but to do the one last step to prove whether or not you can save your marriage.

I think that there might be more gray area though. She could have been showing affair symptoms in order to get me to act rather than just tell me what she needs. Might seem logical to some women to neglect there mates in order to get a response out of them. She might not think she is worthy of me. She might be purposely trying to sabotage the relationship, trying to get me to mess up, so that she won't have to feel guilty about it. I think she showed strong symptoms of this when she said "I wanted you to cheat on me so that I could be mad at you". Maybe she feels that I deserve a physically/sexually active woman as she feels that is uable to provide that...she feels inadequate and guilty. That would kill 2 birds with 1 stone...I would get my needs fulfill and she would get the ammunition she needs to complete the distancing process. She constantly says how much of a "good guy" I am. If I was truly horrible and not worthy of love, wouldn't just leaving me be a better option? I need to somehow let her know that she is worthy of my attention, and I worthy of hers.

I just started looking at your posts so I'm going to comment on stuff from a few days ago.

There is a fine line between treating her like a Queen with you as the peasant and with you as the King(as someone earlier very accurately put it). Treating her like a Queen when you are the peasant makes you needy. Don't take offense to that because everyone that has been in your situation, myself included, is needy. The trick is to not let the "Queen" see it. When you have your relationship talks you are showing her that you are needy. A queen doesn't want someone that is needy. They want someone that is strong, confident, a King. Even if inside you really aren't those things, you need to show her that you are.

You are 33 years old. You are young. If you don't already belong to a gym, join one. Read books/magazines that interest you/make you a better person. Don't just work on your marriage, work on yourself both physically and mentally. When you are working on the marriage you are working on it for both of you. When you are working on yourself you are doing it for you. No matter what her decisions are with your relationship/marriage, she can't negate the improvements you make for yourself. As you work on yourself you will get the confidence back in yourself. You will once again become the King that she is looking for. That will be the difference between you and the other guys you are talking about. Their wives KNOW that they NEED them and therefor will walk all over them. Your wife will know that you can survive without her and will respect you as an equal because of it.

This is very hard to do but when you are working on your marriage, don't expect anything in return for a while. If you ask for it from her you are needy. Come here for support. Go to your friends and family for support. It's one of the hardest things to sit their and get nothing in return after working so hard. But your marriage didn't turn this way in one day and it won't go back to what it was in one day. Think of the end goal. It will be worth it. Good luck to you.

Or she could just be having an affair and you don't want to consider her possible of it, so you'd rather lose your wife than have it be true.

I already belong to a gym. I used to be in excellent shape, but let myself go due to work and being tired. Been picking up the pace more lately as I feel it is a good stress reliever. My wife told me in kind terms (at my physical peak), that she was not attracted to muscular men.

As far as an affair, I do have a prime candidate for an emotional one. A co-worker. A guy that has many female friends and few male ones. Divorced. I've seen him interact with others wives/gf's in ways that seem somewhat inappropriate. This guy seems like somewhat of a predator to me. I've seen my wife mimic his moments like a woman does when they are interested in the opposite sex. Problem is I don't know how to confront her about it. Will it not seem even more desperate and paranoid...especially if she is not doing anything with him?

Which is why you hire the PI.

Don't confront her about it until you have hard evidence of an inappropriate relationship with someone else, whether it is a PA or EA. She will only deny it and then hide it from you even more, making it even harder for you to figure anything out. Your story is very similar to mine in that my fww had an EA with a coworker. Those are just as damaging as PA. I found an email that tipped it off. You need to find some way of monitoring what is going on when you aren't around. Someone mentioned using a voice recorder hidden in her vehicle. I would say that is a very good idea. Odds are they would be going out to lunch together if anything was going on at work. I was fortunate enough that my wife was on maternity leave for 3 months which was when I found the email on her home email address and was able to monitor it for a couple of months to find out what was going on. I didn't have to hire a PI but you might not have a choice. I would at least try to get a hold of her cell phone and check it. You should be able to get a hold of it when she is in the shower or asleep. Just don't tip her off that you know something until you think you've found about everything you can. I held out for 6 weeks after I found the first email before I let her know what I knew.

Going to MC today. Wish me luck. Hopefully I won't have my wife rip out my heart and do an endzone dance on it like she did last time. I ultimately want our sessions to be therapeutic and not an excuse to talk about how sad we are. I'm just going to point out positive things today and how much the relationship means to me. If there is one thing I have found out in last month is that my wife eats my compliments like it is food...after a year of starvation. Seems to amplify when I do it around others. I'm starting to see things clearer. As strong as I thought my wife was, I now realize that everybody needs reassurance, a sense of belonging and acceptance (even if they don't want you to know this). Perhaps alot of this meltdown has been from my lack of expressing this. When I would compliment her in the past or try to be romantic she would say "you are being corny" maybe she meant "you are being corny, but I like it and need it, but I won't tell you this". I mixed message I know, but I'm starting the realize the complex nature of the opposite sex. I'm going to pull something positive out of this. Worst case scenario: I know to handle my next relationship.

Oh is there a table that list the various abrreviations that are used in the post. I am one of you guys now....I best learn for sure what the abbreviations stand for.

Wife didn't show up for MC today, which I totally understand. She was having a busy day at work. She often does and I can't fault her for that. MC and I tackled some issues and seemed to be a decent session. MC asked me what I thought my wife found attractive in me. Thought this was unusual since I don't really know what to think my wife should see in me...that's kinda her territory to expand on. Tried my best to play along.

Wife and I went to birthday party for one of her friends. Had a decent time but I feel awkward in social situations now. I realize that no matter how well things turn out, I will 99% likely not to have any intimate contact with my wife when I get home. It's a feeling that eats at me when I see my wife having a good time....I feel in a healthy relationship good times=good feelings=physical contact later in the night. I also sometimes feel the pressure to "perform" in front of a crowd, so that my wife might see me as a worthy and desirable person. This more often than not makes me over-think my responses, makes the flow feel unatural and makes socialization more of a chore. My wife complimented me to one of her friends, which again made me feel awkward as I feel that I should be complimenting her to feed her emotional needs.

Got home. Felt weak and alone. Asked my wife how she thought the relationship was going. Wife states "I don't know". Felt even more weak and alone. Broke down and cried in a room by myself. I didn't really want my wife to know I was so emotional yet again, but she heard me anyway. My wife came into the room and held me....something that she has not done without prompting in a while. She asked me if there was anything that she could do for me. I told her that holding me meant alot and was enough. My wife said "I still love you". My wife said "I'm sorry". I told her that I would never take anything for granted anymore. I told her that she was only 1/2 of the picture and I was the other 1/2....that she was not entirely to blame. These were all normal responses that I would expect from my wife pre-conflict. I felt a little reassurance. I see some of her barriers are coming down.

My wife called me this morning. She wants to go away to San Antonio with me this weekend. Starting to look much better for me guys. Might be premature, but she hasn't shown this kind of interest...in well...years. Thanks so much for your help. I'll keep you posted on our progress.

Just a post to update you all. Things are really looking up. I just wanted to post some thoughts in case somebody else is having similiar problems...maybe they will find my thread insightful. Had a great weekend. Very romantic and revealing. I think I'm pouring so much into my wife's LB that she is unable to keep the walls up. When we got back from the trip I asked my wife how the relationship was going and she replied "good". When she asked me how I thought it was going i told her "better, but I know I can do better and I don't expect to win your trust completely in this short of time". My wife questioned this response and I told her that there obviously had been something that made her question my abilities as a husband and that it would take some time to gain that trust again. My wife did not question me further. I have learned that my wife is struggling for her own identity. In the past my wife has relied on me for all her interests, friends and hobbies. She is breaking off from that and I am tryig to reinforce that this is totally understandable and appropriate. I want my wife to have her own identity...I just need to reinforce to her that I am comfortable with that. I believe she is scared that breaking off from my interests would create a rift. It won't and I actually find it attractive. And I have been letting her know that I will be there to partake in these new interests with her. I also learned that my wife wants to be "WoW'd" by me. I find that I can impress people on a daily basis, but these are people that don't know me like my wife. She is not so impressed by the same old tricks. I need to somehow instill those thoughts of admiration in her again. I've done it before...I can do it again. Lastly the important thing I've discovered is that my wife needs to feel safe. As independent and strong as she wants to appear on the outside, she wants to feel that someone has her and will protect her. Part of our conflict has occurred because I saw my wife as a friend, somebody that will love me no matter what I do or how I screw up. I got lazy. I know the reality is that my wife needs more on my part and that I need to strive to her ideals. Even if I don't get there, she needs to know I'm trying. It's the act of striving that will show my love towards her. I know this now. Thanks for all the help. Special thanks to Loving...you are truly a philospher and gave me so much inspiration when there seemed to be little hope.

FB,

Who you are is a "WoW"...never doubt that. Your essence is stunning. We can hide it in old tricks and other folks...our mates really know us, and yes, you acting with focus and conviction from your own power is a huge Wow.

Your recognition of her ENs, eliminating your LBs and knowing your own ENs is all Wow, too. Says "I see you" "I hear you" "I know you" "I feel your presence." As you see, hear, know and feel your own stuff, you'll understand your Wowfactor better.

And be wow'd by her, too.

Are you guys talking about healthy boundaries...where she can branch off and nurture some same-sex friendships, not have RC with members of the opposite sex, play and rest with each other and earn trust through keeping to those agreed to boundaries? We do tend to slingshot from 0 to 180 degrees when we "break out" of our patterns...and then we work toward the middle, the apex of 90 degrees...which is what I see you doing.

Funniest thing about what we humans long to be seen as...just signals to what we are already and refuse to see in ourselves.

A tip for you: What you admire in others you are denying in yourself...and the same for what riles you. Share your way...use "Good to know" when she answers a question or shares her thoughts, her stuff. For it truly is good to know.

Doesn't define you, 'k? Only you do that.

Don't live in your expectations...they can seem to be the source of our joy, a surprise...she wanted to go with you on the trip and she did. That's the source of joy, not your expectation of her not wanting to go giving you joy when in fact, she did. DJs are assumptions and they can hide in soothing, surprising places...expect them everywhere and hunt them down to see them for what they are, 'k?

Please reinforce through acknowledgement she already has her own identity and always has had and will have. So have you. You both were made wonderfully whole and complete. You don't complete or define one another. No need. You are both new every day of your lives.

When she fears...she fears. It's hers. You aren't the cause, control or cure of her stuff...as her partner, up to you to know, comprehend and understand...so you will know this for yourself. You guys are side by side, not end to end...acknowledge, not cure, 'k? That prolongs the old dance...

for if we choose to live as if we are the cause, then we have the power to cure...to earn love is to earn punishment...and to dole it out to make someone else stop punishing us. It's a cycle we all break out of, over time, when hit the point of how badly these beliefs damages ourselves and everyone we love.

How do you feel about regaining your own trust again? Do you have a deadline, a short time expectation on that? Expectations are premeditated resentments...watch out for them kicking you into spirals, 'k?

Thank you for your update. One thing I meant to say about your thread title is you may consider changing it to "My wife says she loves me" period someday soon.

She does. She didn't stop. Nor did you. You both just stopped acting from it. That happens when we begin reacting to fear, instead.

LA

FB,

I'm a newbie here and I've been doing a lot of reading on MB's website. I actually just read your thread. I can't say I have advice for you, but I do want to say I do admire you. You're going through some very tough times and I'm glad to hear things are looking up for you. You deserve it. A lot of people probably would have thrown in the towel, but you fought on and worked on it. You should be proud of yourself and know that you sound like a great person and someone who your W is lucky to have. Hopefully, when it's all said and done you're W will remember why she married you and I will echo a lot of the other posts...she did she just forgot or got lost along the way. It happens. Best of luck and please keep us updated!!

Thanks for the kind words. It is taking courage on both our parts. It's when we stop hiding from our fears and act upon reality that we can find truth. Welcome to the forums. I hope you find them as helpful as I have. Initially, the single most reassuring thing I found out on these forums is that I was not alone....not by a longshot. The people who post on these forums have strength. They demonstrate that trait by trying to work on their relationships for the better. I wish you luck with whatever has brought you here.

I'm trying to improve myself for myself. I put in my 2 weeks notice at work and I'm going to take at least month off before beginning work again (I have a job where I can basically be hired in a few days once I make the decision). In the hustle of trying to live the American dream I have neglected family, my spouse and most importantly myself. I think part of my current situation is because I failed to see how unhappy I was with my relationship. Kinda weird how seeing clearer would indicate being better to myself? I've been beating myself up for too long, gauging my spouse's reactions as a meter for how good I am doing in life. I've decided that the only thing I can really do is to put my best foot forward, face truths and accept myself as being a worthy person. If people can't see me as a worthy person...really not my problem. If my wife can't see me as a worthy person....really not my problem. Mind control is a power that even god's can't achieve. I still love her, but I could easily find love elsewhere. She seems to be slipping out of her haze slowly. Her attitude seems to rise as I am achieving a sort of zen or self-actualization. I'm not claiming to be a some sort of jedi or shaman, I'm just seeing things for face value....for the first time in my life. I'm either becoming liberated or I'm going crazy...I'll let you know in the end.

Thought I would write an update and get any feedback or advice.

Negotiations still seem to be progressing better than they were a month ago, however my wife is still very hesitant to give herself sexually to me.

Things I've noticed recently:
1. she seems to be more happy around me (at least on the surface), whereas before I could tell she was keeping something from me and/or being cold in general.
2. seems to want to do more things with me
3. is very hesitant to have relationship talk, even though we only schedule it once a week.
4. usually gets mad and emotional during relationship talk
5. sleeps closer to me in the bed, whereas before would sleep at the furtheriest point.
6. gets angry if i stand my ground on something (i'm tired of being passive)
7. seems to spend more time at home (might be random occurance).
8. shows more appreciation for my acts of service (idenitified as one of her love languages)

During relationship talk this week I just tried to be as open as I possibily could. I just talked and talked because she says NOTHING about the relationship unless I get the ball rolling. I told her I felt the relationship had gone sour because I had no boundaries and would not push issues. I told her that relationship talks were important because lack of communication got us in this situation in the first place. When I brought up sex she stated "I don't want to be treated like a piece of meat!". She was visibly angry when she said this. I told her that this statement insulted me. I have been with her for 17 years. I wouldn't treat anybody like a piece of meat, much less the person I chooe to spend my life with. I respect people too much to treat anyone like a "piece of meat" I told her I felt that her lack of desire to be sexual towards me was either: a)she does not find me physically attractive or b)she does not respect me or c) both. Running every possible scenario in my head it can only point to either of the 2 options. I'm just trying to flush out some freaking answers from my wife. I feel it's "b" for whatever reasons. I told her that she has basically been running the show, with me blinding following along. I told her I thought that might be one of the problems. She also blamed my parents for things that she had no solid information about and was 180 degrees wrong on. Anything negative that she knows about my parents is through me and me opening up to her. I feel using my parents as ammo is cheap pool. Her family contains Grade A screw-ups but I know it is unfair and cruel to use them as fodder, so I resist any temptations to say anything negative about them. My parents hold my wife in the highest regards in reality. The only negative aspect is that my mother can see right through our guise and knows fully what kind of pain my wife is capable of inflicting on me. However my mother knows that I love my wife, bites her tongue and shows love and respect towards my wife. My demeanor was calm and respectful (in my eyes) during our talk, hers was emotional and aggressive. She cried and once called herself "selfish" for witholding sex. When she tried to talk over me once I said "don't interupt me, don't talk over me". The one boundary I set in the conversation is the one element that stopped the conversation flat. She then stated she was too mad to talk. Everytime I try to be open and tell her how I feel it's like a WWE wrestling match. She accuses me of talking psycho babble and talking over her head (although she is about x4 smarter than me). btw i'm not a psychologist. I don't intentionally try and make her angry, talk down to her, make her feel inferior, shameful or manipulate her. I just try and tell her my viewpoint. And I won't let an issue slide, ever again. Otherwise we will be doomed to repeat the same conflicts over and over. Remember she once told me that she would be perfectly happy living with me in the same house, if she did not have to have sex with me....and just hoped that I wouldn't be unhappy. Her statements make me insane and wonder why I've choosen to put myself through this....then I remember that I have fallen in love with this emotional wreck.

Could someone be so dysfunctional sexually that they don't know how to give themselves to someone else. She almost operates like a sexual abuse victim. I have asked her straight up about this before too. Or at the very least someone who has highly distorted point of what sex acutally is. Her inability to be totally open blocks any chance of true intimacy. She just lays there and says nothing during sex. Sometimes when she is drunk she opens up and is actually hella fun in the sack. One time when she was drunk had me spank her....and wanted to keep going like the energizer bunny. These are actions she would NEVER NEVER do sober. It's like repressed sexuallity comes out. Sadly, my best times sexually with my wife have been when she was drunk. Shamefully I wished she were drunk more so we could have fullfilling, wild, spontaneous, fun sex. I once told her that I like it when she had been drinking because it increased my chances to "get lucky", thinking I was being cute and funny. Think I shot myself in the foot with this. Not entirely by coincidence she started "passing out" after a long night of festivities, stating she was too tired or drunk to do anything. But if i wouldn't press the issue she would stay up until 3 am and watch tv or play on the computer to get tired. or stay up until crazy hours with her friends. or anything that didn't involve sex with me. I see this as disrespectfully giving me a psychological middle finger. Truth is I shouldn't have to wait for her to be drunk in order for her to have sex this way (or at all). I believe my wife is shameful of her sexuality. She has proven that she can let herself go with a little help from liquid courage, but just won't otherwise. I tried 1,000 times to tell her that sex should be fun and a bonding experience with the one you love...not something to be anxious or have expectations aobut. My wife is very attractive and I know males persue her...I have been a witness to this. She can have no illusion that she is unattractive, even though she pretends to have a negative self-body image (I know this is a ploy to once again have me tell her how desireable she is again "game"). We play that one about 2 times a week. "Oh I am SO fat", "no your not, it fact....blah blah doesn't matter because this will be replayed again in a few days.". I think that pushing the issue of sex just makes my wife more shameful and resentful. I feel instead of working on the true issue she would rather sabotage our marriage and point the finger at me while doing it. What could be so fearful about sex? leads back to abuse? somebody pounding into your head that sex is a shameful act? SOMEWHERE there is a strong belief about SOMETHING that inhibits my wife from having enjoyable sex with me. I'm just afraid it will tear our marriage apart to find it.

Any insights?

Also I'm thinking about joining a monastary or building a rocket to shoot me into space.

FB,

I'm glad you're keeping R talk to once a week. What's your time limit for it? We kept to 20 minutes...no room to talk and talk...simple bulleted statements of ownership.

Your W gave you a great one. And you said you were insulted by her statement. Big fat DJ right there. It's harming your communication and your marriage.

DJ - Disrespectful Judgment. Read "Love Busters" and eliminate all of them.

She can have this perception...doesn't mean you're treating her that way. Do you want to understand her or control her? Do you want to TAKE offense or acknowledge? Your choice.

Just know that what you did crossed a boundary. That's not what you want.

Strive first to understand, then be understood.

She doesn't open up about R talk...and then she did. Big time. One statement. Then on top of the DJ (assuming she was saying YOU made her feel like a piece of meat), you added two more...you stated her perception came from one of two places in HER. Do you really want to know her or remake her into an image of her you'll be happy with?

I'm being tough on you right now because you're not holding to your boundary of respect. What is your predetermined progressive boundary enforcement around you for when you cross your boundary?


Stop. You aren't that powerful. She voluntarily told you something really important. LISTEN. Listen to know, not to own...it's not yours. Do you want to be safe for your W to be radically honest, or control what you hear so you don't hurt?

You won't hurt if you don't DJ yourself and her. You're doing that, not her.

Stop digging/flushing. Focus on listening and repeating to stop your own disrespectful reactivity...state your DJs as they occur..."I heard you say you don't want to feel like a piece of meat and my fear went off the charts, with this huge amount of anger right on its heels. I took your sharing with me as my fault. Wow. I did that so fast."

That's sharing with ownership. It means you're practicing RH, acting from respect and that you ARE safe to share with...you'll state (share) not DEMONSTRATE.

You HEARD her blame your parents instead of hearing her thoughts which you weren't privileged to hear before. Her theories, thoughts, perceptions...all hers...not fact. Do you want to have the privilege to know another human being's intimate thoughts or do you want to refute, dismiss and discount them?

You're not safe, FB. You get it and you lose it. Stop focusing on flushing her out so you can maul her...and focus on listening to acknowledge and hand back to her, instead.

You're doing the bait and slap...stop.

You didn't act from respect...so I understand her not respecting you right now. You can change that and respect yourself. Your choice.

Btw, about your other DJ that she doesn't find you sexually attractive? Sex is IN the mind...and when humans do not feel desirable, they don't desire. When they feel like scum, they don't find others stepping on them to be very attractive, safe, a celebration of who they are. Get safe to share with, know and not own what isn't yours...and her desire may go through the roof.

LB's will kill SF.

Every family has screwups...neither of you would have been attracted initially to each other if not for their screw-ups and injuries...together, you heal those old issues...right now, you're actively choosing to re-open and wound her in the exact ways she saw in you to help her heal.

She has done the same to you. You gotta ASSUME she meant to wound you with her opinion about your parents in relation to you...did you ask? "Ouch. Are you saying that to hurt me right now?" Do you want to live in reality? Then confirm or clarify...stop assuming. It's what is making you reactive NOT her sharing with you.

And you know what's REALLY a building block of intimacy? If she answers "Yes, I was." That's radical honesty and it builds intimacy.

Your demeanor may have been calm and respectful...your choices were not because of your DJs.

Review your post and ask yourself if in your R talk did you want to be aware or in control? Which one? One negates the other? Do you want to know your W right now or control her?

Because this wasn't an R talk...it was your boot camp. Be really honest with yourself...do you want to break her down to rubble and rebuild her so you won't ever be hurt by her again? Do you want her to FEEL how devastated you've felt...or for her to KNOW?

They are two separate things.


She can feel all those things and you CANNOT cause them in her...do you even care what she feels? Are these R talks to change your feelings about her or hers about you right now? Or are they to know what each of your stuff really is?

When you tell her she's wrong about her stuff, you are manipulating and disrespecting her. To make you safe from her stuff...and you already are. Her thoughts are hers, not fact. Stop making them right/wrong. What's your real goal? To know and be known or to change, control, cure?

She is having an internal issue with sex...she feels selfish. What does that mean to her? She doesn't want to feel two-dimensional, like a piece of meat or an outlet. That's about her, her beliefs...do you want to know what she believes, how she perceives, her filter...or do you just want her to be the real piece of meat and not perceive, believe that way?

Figure out what are problems to be solved and what's to be understood...in the real world, you cannot solve anything without understanding it first...90% of marital issues are NOT to be solved...they are to be understood.

Understanding is key...you have your own filter to own, understand...and your DJs make you toxic to share with right now. Clean your own filter up...so you can understand first, then see if there's really anything to solve. The very act itself may validate she's a whole, complete, three-dimensional human being who cannot be a piece of meat...and she may celebrate feeling respected, acknowledged, understood, spoken and listened to the equal she is to you, valued and cherished...biggest turn on there is...because that IS intimacy.

Easily translates into physical intimacy.

She's not an emotional wreck...another DJ. She has a lot of emotions, signals she's not getting, triggering to stuff you have no part of, aren't the cause, control or cure of...do you want to be safe for her to share, helps us humans to hear our thoughts aloud to figure out our own signals (like you do here with your posting)...or do you want to shut her down and then flush her out the way you want her to be?

No wonder she doesn't want to have R talks. Brutal.

Do you want to do communication exercises? It's reasonable because you abdicated your responsibility for your half of the marriage for long, when you go to correct it (because you realized it as really harmful instead of helpful), you'll over shoot...I did that. It's like you were at 0 degrees...and so you do the complete opposite to "fix" yourself...and 180 degrees from 0 is still sick.

What's your target? 90 degrees...the apex of living. It's what we all thirst for and keep overshooting, overcorrecting like in a skid, turning away from it and crashing our relationships.

What your "Remember she once told me" choice to dwell in that statement...it's riling your fear and pain...and she's not doing that. Did she tell you today that is what she wants, would make her happy today? We can reach back over years of our marriages and stab ourselves with our partner's statements...and they would swallow fire to take them back and they can't. And they have to deal with your brain handing you all the emotions, the signals, you experienced when you heard it...feel the insanity, make it into fact and forever...as much of a fantasy as an A.

Speaking of which...

Did you hire the PI to find out if she is having an EA with the divorced coworker? It's very important.

Second, did you do the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) with your W about quitting your job and taking a month off?

Btw, I originally typed "WW" for Wayward Wife through this post...and then went back and revised it...you haven't found out if she is having an A or not. You dropped that ball. It's an important ball. She sounds very much in the WW mindset that I experienced myself.

The flags are still there. I don't understand why she can't share with you her password for her work email so you can see them. Do you check her work cell every night?

Same questions I think I asked before.

Can you make yourself a sigline, btw? I look for your posts, and in the lag time, I forget important stuff...siglines really help me out. Says ages, time married, kids or not, and what your marital issue that brought you here is...obviously, your thread title helps out...however, it doesn't update what you've learned...and a sigline can..."Don't know if in A or not" "In MC and working on reconnecting"...whatever you want in there to help keep your situation separate from all the others on the board.

Yeah, I'm afraid I'm going to confuse you with another BH and embarrass myself big time. Because marital conflict and stress really is common, has many of the same elements, and I'm old...all gray and wrinkled...I'm afraid of my own assumptions, too, FB.

When you guys met an fell in love with other, was she sexually dysfunctional? Afraid of being a piece of meat? Was SF joyous and additionally connecting (we're really connected in our self-images in the infatuation stage)?

Staying up until 3am, playing computer games, watching television...all are signs of depression...intense distraction to our own detriment. Does she now have a regular and healthy sleep pattern with at least six hours and not more than eight hours every night? Does she nap after work for more than a half-hour?

Your opinion that her inability (she's able) to be totally open blocks intimacy...gotta be super safe for anyone to choose to be totally open, radically honest and confiding...and I bet you were when you guys were in infatuation stage.

Second stage is a shock to many people...isn't what their fantasy of marriage included...or even their knowledge, through others...which is why it takes both of you, doing your best, partnering, not parenting, without judgment to get to know and be known.

You can choose to see her actions as giving you the middle finger...you're gonna hurt, feel anger, frustration, and that forever child in you is going to kick your emotions all over the place...and it may not be true. She may feel she is a constant failure to you sexually, unfulfilling, a vehicle to your release like anybody on the planet could be...and no, not from anything you say or do...just because she feels like a constant failure.

She may put anything...darning socks...as an excuse to distract and not experience what she does now during SF.

Wanna do non-verbal communication exercises?

Thing is...you don't know, do you? Which is why you guess, assume...limit possibilities, correct? Our DJs walk into terrifying voids for us...which is why we feel they are real and that aren't even reality.

Stop refuting her stuff. "I'm so fat." "You believe you're fat? Good to know." Change your steps, FB, if you really want to change the dance.

So sharing your stuff, your admiration and appreciation, your own attraction for her is HER having a pretend negative body image? Do you really want to know this woman or just get her hot for you so you can feel admired, appreciated and loved?

If you held yourself to following the policy of Radical Honesty (RH) and stated, "Right now you look so lovely to me. I am turned on, lit up inside by your smile." Those are real statements of affirmations, another of your W's love languages, which she isn't getting met by you because you've DJ'd them as something else.

Do you usually tell her you admire her physical body parts? Or her personality? Her words? Her essence? Her actions?

Not "giving" compliments...stating your own truth...sharing with her.

What could be so fearful about sex? Are you serious? It is the raw physical symbol of absolute vulnerability and ultimate connection in your marriage...which is why it's an EN...it symbolizes deep acceptance, respect, admiration, appreciation, commitment and love. That's what you tried to get her to see, remember? Fear kills all that...feeling rejected (from refuting her stuff and then craving her body); disrespected, talked down to, negated, not appreciated, not loved.

Does not mean you're doing this to her...take your own inventory before you take hers...means she's feeling this way...and you've posted where she is feeling this less and less...and you feel more connected to her during SF...and disconnected when you guys do R talks...don't demean her fear of SF (disconnection) when she may feel very connected when you guys safely communicate.

From your previous conflict avoidance, you might have exampled to her that she's dangerous, to hide her stuff because who she really is disappoints, irritates, annoys or causes you to feel disgust...what's so fearful about conflict?

And you can consider yourself launched at this point of my post.

Ack.

See my reactivity? Your post was like my own marital R talks from four years ago...ohmygosh...triggering all over the place (with reversed roles, btw...I was the digger/flusher). That's mine to own and to share with you. That's my filter. I lived it...which is why I chose to stop living that way.

Changed my life experience...

Find out definitively about a workplace EA, 'k? Could also be a PA, which is another consideration in your battle for SF...don't know. Won't know until you independently verify...and I'm not doubting your intuition that above all, she doesn't want to be the bad guy...would rather you have an A so she can feel good about herself, that she didn't fail.

Because that's what conflict avoidance says, too...rather lose the marriage than be wrong, correct?

And that's not who you are...just how you acted. And then you changed. You are continuing to change. So can she, 'k? It's a choice. Ask MC about it...sex therapy...or doing IC with her...while you independently verify she's not in fantasy affair land (another distraction btw).

Don't push, flush, dig...respectful is listen and repeat (respectful to her and to you...so you don't take in, stop DJing and reeling emotionally)...striving first to understand, then be understood...to really know and be known...her stuff isn't a danger to you...and if it is to her...you'll have the privilege of discovering instead of assuming...and make sure you are sharing your fears, thrills, joy, sorrow and anger aloud, too.

You can do this, FB. Overshooting isn't fatal unless you keep choosing to do it only because it's the opposite of what you did before. Realigning to what your real goal...then you'll thrive.

LA

Yes I fault. I have emotions and I am human. I sometimes feel so drained that I am unable to conduct myself as I should. Sometimes I just have to say.

Thanks for the advice. I will try to have more self-control.

Hon, I don't think she's talking self-control so much as empathy. You're so super frustrated that you can't let yourself get back to square one with her, before all the baggage. She knows it; she protects herself. You have to look at her and see the woman you fell in love with, not the woman you have to battle to achieve anything.

She needs to feel that safeness from you, or it will never be what you want. Does that make sense?

I'm sure a big part of this is her FOO sexuality issues. But she'll never be able to address them if she doesn't feel you're her best friend, her confidante, her one true love, who would stay by her side even if she became a paraplegic for the rest of her life, because you love her that much. HER. Not her body or what her body can give you in terms of satisfaction.

I'm not blaming you, I'm trying to help you see how she got to this point. How you can fix it.

As for your FOO question, heck yeah that can cause her problem. My dad left when I was 12; my brother (3 years older) tried to pound into my head that sex was evil, so that when he went away to college, I wouldn't have sex and get pregnant. Add to that, the first thing my dad did when he moved out was get a vasectomy so he could screw as many women as would have him, and not have to worry about any more kids (boy, did THAT make me feel great, the little mistake he was stuck with). So between my brother making me feel like a POS for letting boys have SF with me (I was too weak to say no) and watching my dad try to screw anything in a skirt, I developed an extremely bad taste for sex.

To this day, 30 years later, I can almost never look forward to sex. And my H gives GREAT sex. But I count whether it's been enough days that H is going to expect it tonight (we have SF every 3 or 4 days), and I often try to find ways to get out of it. Sometimes I'll take care of him and then ask for a back rub or foot rub for my 'treat.' I should be thrilled, cos it's awesome, but I simply can't get past the training of my FOO.

So if you really think that is part of her issue, the ONLY way she'll be able to get past it and work on it is if she believes you're her best friend who never will judge her, always let her be honest, and never push her. Can you do that?

Oh, btw, reread LA's post, it will help you immensely.

Sorry to interupt..has anyone ever successfully recovered from this statment in their relationship? FB..I feel for you, going through same exact thing, to the tee. I appreciate everyone's advice as well, thank you, sincerely.

I hear what you all are saying. What I am saying is that I have explored just about every avenue to show her that I love her for her. After everything is said and done, if she is not able to reciporcate, I can't be with her. If she is unable to see my intention as true commitment she is either blind or does not love me. If we go through this conflict and our issues get ironed out, wow. If this keeps repeating itself, I have to bail as it is truly futile. I DO LOVE HER FOR HER. She told me that she wanted me to cheat on her and I didn't. She told me she didn't want children, I told her that being with her was more important to me than passing on my bloodline. She has given me every opportunity to bail, I didn't. I would protect her with my life. I would met any of her needs if she would just tell me. If this isn't love, I truly don't know what women want and I am truly a dumb and hopeless man. I have told her all of this again and again, over the course of 17 years. If she wants to throw this away for an affair...so be it, I won't stop her. I can't waste energy and focus on something that MIGHT be true. That is called being paranoid. Paranioa breeds fear, resentment and weakness. If she wants to throw it away for fantasy entitlement...so be it. I don't deserve that and any sensible person would see that for face value. I'm not thinking sensibly because I love her...this is wait drives me to try and make things right.

FB,


Sounds to me like you went straight to blame and fault. Then justifications.

How is that really working for you?

My reactivity was from hearing/feeling your pain in your post...your anger and despair. Not blaming or faulting you. I asked you questions I would really like an answer to...so I can know your real beliefs...not shoulds or shouldn'ts. Those are not real.

We all have emotions. We are all human. Changing our behaviors only comes from changing our beliefs...even the fake it 'til you make it works long enough for you to see what you were really believing before and changing it. It collapses when you don't change your beliefs.

Which is why it becomes a resentment fest or awesome freedom.

There is the very real possibility you do not want to know your wife. And she may not really want to know you. That's important to know in yourself and where that's coming from in you.

I believe we do what you did until we wake up, become aware. Solving people is dangerous...they aren't problems. When you treat another person as a problem, you treat yourself the same way. Can't go just one way.

It's draining...when you focus on making yourself to know others, then you have the double benefit of becoming safe for YOU to know yourself...not for blaming, shaming or failing. I believe both you and your wife are great mates...each of you have the same struggles inside...sharing those halves the pain, doubles the joy.

I want that for your marriage very much.

I do not doubt you have explored every avenue with your focus on her, to get her to...not you. Which is why I'm asking you who you really are, what your code is...if you experience my focus back on you, where only you have real control, as a heavy, intrusive light beam in your face...think of how your wife feels with your focus on her...most likely, the same.

Her fear of failing, experience of it, is not within your control. Your fear of failing her, your experience as if you are, isn't real either.

You can't fail her.

She can't really fail you.

You both desire connection otherwise, one or the other of you wouldn't stay present for these devastation communications.

I was serious about the exercises...I believe they saved my marriage as much as MB...because Harley's rule of Being Good Friends of Conversation is crucial to all of his advice. I wasn't a good friend, wasn't safe, and it was my own fear causing me.

Not DH. Not my FOO. Just me.

She is reciprocating...think about this...if she wasn't at all (all or nothing signal), then she wouldn't be there with you...she would have left...and she certainly would have left the R talk within a couple of minutes. She wouldn't have revealed some of her stuff to you...can you see her bravery?

Can you see your own?

You choose to stay married to her or not. There is going to be repeated conflict throughout your life...if you learn to connect through it, deepen intimacy and be safe, then you'll thrive. If you want to avoid conflict, iron it out smooth so it doesn't repeat, then no matter who you are with, you will be disappointed and not get what you want. Humans are complex, intensely complex...there is no right person out there for you...there's you being a great partner.

If you continue to embrace DJs in your life, then all your relationships will continue to suffer. You will suffer. I don't know how else to phrase that...DJs hurt ourselves and others. A lot of our emotions come directly from them, signalling us to see what belief (DJ) is behind it and if it's real or imaginary. Assumptions aren't real. Our brains do not know the difference.

JustLearning was the poster who pointed out my DJs when I came here...maybe he could help you, too? Having them pointed out HELPED me tremendously...I had no idea I had control over my life experience...or how much I hurt myself and pointed at my DH.

Your choices remain yours...if you choose to bail, you bail. No one can make you.

You love her for her real self? Or her self image? The self she tries to show you and hide the one she doesn't believe you could love?

Every single moment, we can choose to bail out on our own vows, our marriages...both partners have that power...and each day they don't, they are choosing not to do so. Your wife hasn't bailed. We all live in that tenuous reality...even in our thriving marriages.

Doesn't bother me. I'll be okay with or without my DH. What he does, says, thinks, believes, perceives really is about him...not me. I hear his innermost stuff and he hears mine...not to cure or fix...to know. Our experience is of allies, side by side, in each other's corner.

Recently I assumed something that wasn't true...and I did the old school accusation "You failed" thing...and he was really hurt, full of self-doubt...and then I caught and checked myself nearly immediately (couple of minutes) because I had that "old" anger going...and found out I was wrong, wasn't even a thing, a problem...my assumption...and I felt awful, too. I looked him in the eye, saying, "I am so sorry on so many levels." And he
said "I felt really awful, like I did do that" and he looked me in the eye, we kissed and hugged...even though we didn't feel like it in that moment...I apologized again.

What I didn't realize until I was writing this post to you, FB, was even though I went into old...and DH felt old awful...he didn't do old awful...the silent treatment, the mockery/shaming...the old reactions of distancing to punish/protect. We went on...and talked about it again a day later...and now, two weeks later. Four years I'm still realizing how much we have changed.

Would you really meet any of her ENs? Would you meet her EN of safe communication...experiencing you as really hearing, understanding what she says, validating her stuff as hers...safely? Without judgment or refuting?

We refute when we fear.

We dismiss and discount when WE fear.

That's how we make others' stuff about us, and not hear or know them. Reacting to fear.

Do you experience her words as facts? "If she really feels that way, then I'm not safe?" So you try to change her thought, her feeling, her belief, heck, her theory to make you safer?

You're already safe, FB.

I believe you love deeply and completely, FB. You're made from love. It's your fear and how much you fear I see as getting in the way of feeling deeply and completely loved, FB.

Again...I urge you to do all you can to ascertain the truth of an affair or not...17 years of tiny resentments can stack up to the sky...and that's her choice to create and maintain those...wasn't you, 'k?

You have accumulated your own. They are what send in the DJs to protect you, up your urge to control, change her stuff...her choices. Clearing yours out helps your own clarity, lessens greatly your reactivity, and helps you really stop assuming your life and begin to live freely.

Ascertaining truth is never a waste of energy or focus. It's your responsibility. Not to get out of her...to know for yourself to the best of your ability. You made a promise to yourself to hire a PI and you broke your own promise. Your choices matter as much as hers does...that equality doesn't stop.

You don't deserve infidelity--no one does, ever. Doesn't work that way...you aren't bad, wrong, messed up or the bad guy, either. Answering who you really want to be...if you want to react to your feelings or act to your code, up to you.

That's the change which made all the difference. No matter the outcome, you shine. Depends on your choice. Eliminating your LBs is healthy and enables you to love yourself more, stop abandoning your own self, and feel incredibly loved.

Choices, not a condition.

Know each other new today, FB. You can do that. It's a great choice.

LA

I read 3/4 of the 5 love languages today by Chapman. It is such a great book! It is like a Rosetta Stone to me. I failed to meet her emotional needs for such a long time. Then I withdrew when she didn't meet mine. I would force my 2 primary love languages on her, which would appear to be totally different from her 2 primary languages. Then wonder why she didn't respond. Would seem as if listening and quality time would be my wife's #1 by far. I'm guessing service is a close #2. I had the privilidge of seeing my wife's family dynamics before we were married. Her mother was always spending time/doing services for her when she was younger. It is so crystal clear to me now that withdrawing from her only twisted a knife into her and made her feel unloved. Just as lack of physical intimacy twisted her knife into me. I believe verbal is a very important language to me. I was frequently criticized by my father for not doing well in school. He would praise my for doing well. The only way I could gauge my father's love was verbally. My wife will praise me, but not often. In fact, just about everytime my wife has given me verbal affirmation I can remember it fondly(and I remember getting warm fuzzies and feeling so special). The effect is 2-fold in social situations. I need to ask my wife to read this book. Either way, I am inspired today.

Hi,

I wrote before, am going through same experience, and know where FB is at. It is really hard! To change my whole perspectives on myself, while hopeing she doesn't leave.

I appreciate all the advice given to FB as I have been trying to use it as well. (hope all of you don't mind):)

I have made many of the same mistakes in this process as FB as well.

I am at the point to hire a PI, and feel guilty about it. Like I am being mistrustful to my wife if I do. Especially if the PI doesn't find anything. Where do I go from there? Do I tell her I hired a PI to be honest with her? Do I not tell anyone ever, and fell like I have trust issues?

I wouldn't post this here, if it might not help FB too. Not trying to steal post.

Again, thxs for all the advice, sincerely.

And FB, I'm right there with you. The day I became "just a friend" was July 2, 2008, a day before my birthday. It's been a horrible summer so far. Hang in there, I'm trying to.

FB,

Thank you for sharing your inspired day. I admire you for reaching out and reading...you did that. You're the mover and shaker for you.

Makes sense to me that words of affirmation would be potent for you...which may be why her words "once she said" stay with you...you hold all her words close, as you did your father's...what hurts and what soars, mixed in. They are important to you.

WWB - same thing...how do you release just the statements which tore your heart out and keep the ones which made you feel whole? I don't believe you can hold onto both...they really were statements about your wives...what we say, even when it sounds about others, shares about us. Our opinion...our wishes, our perception...we see you (pause here) as <blank>...doesn't make you blank, makes you perceived...seen. Your wives SEE you. Stop there. That's the fact portion.

I hope you both know how hard I have held onto statements...four years ago, DH called me on it...said why do you do that...remember every word? I answered, "From fear, not from love." Gotta tell you I forget readily now...I'm not afraid of being wrong, having wrong feelings, thoughts or beliefs...so I don't need to record his words and use them against him...I don't need to rile myself up with old sentences he once spoke, which I made about myself...used to distance us and focus on lack, instead of my abundance.

I used to hate the answer, "I forgot" so much I would make sure I remembered, in detail, everything. I set my feet in cement, didn't I? It's as valid to tell yourself "She's not saying that now" as to say, "She once said..." isn't it?

LA

Having a weird fun day today. I woke up with the intentions of breaking out of my mold, doing things for the sake of doing things differently. I've been on call for work 11 days straight...this is my day off. Work called my cell phone and left a message...needing me to do something. My standard reaction would be to guilt myself into replying and complying what they needed. I knew they would get along quite well without me. So I didn't reply, because I didn't want to do it. I feel a little guilt but it is fading away the longer the day goes on. I went to the bank and got my hair cut. If something came to my mind, I would share it with the people around me. Before I would hold my thoughts and beliefs to myself because I always thought they could really never be interesting to others. I would be selfish with my thoughts....my thoughts...nobody understands them but me. Entitlement and selfishness. And also very lonely. I just decided that if I was going to live as a social being I needed some conflict. Not always bad conflict, it won't kill me and it will most likely be exciting at least...stop fearing (or at least stop gearing my mind to fear). You know what I observed? People seemed to be drawn to me, what I was saying, like bugs to a light. I would stop the conservation as if there was nothing left to be said.....and people would keep it going as if they wanted to explore deeper to what I thought. I have ideas, thoughts...stuff that is stimulating and thought provoking. But people don't understand so I shouldn't bother with them (my old way of thinking). I did things different for the sake of doing things different, as I grow tired of the ways things have been. My perception of what was going on today, but it's been a fun day anyway. Perhaps this has been part of the problem with our relationship. We have been in a rut and need some spontaneous thinking to get the ball rolling. Anybody else have a similiar revelation in their conflicts?

Wow, that's awesome!

One of the things I tell people the most is to get out of their rut, to try something new, cos you have to keep life interesting to stay invested in it, right? Try a new restaurant, new hobby, new museum, new park, whatever. Good for the soul.

Hey Hey....WantWifeBack...no I don't think you are stealing my post. In some weird way we are brothers, bonded together by going through the same crap. I'd be very interested to hear your progress, so keep me posted if you don't mind. I am sad that you are going through the same situation, but happy to hear I'm not alone in my struggles. Stay strong.

And stop trying to fear. Would your wife leaving you kill you? It would hurt but it wouldn't kill you. This might help your outlook on things.

Hey thxs for feedback FB. No, if she left it wouldn't kill me . It just hurts alot. Since nothing is working, I got a spy program and see shes in communication with an ex-coworker about going out when I'm at work. Still not real proof, so I hired a PI. I feel guilty as sin, like I'm betraying her trust, but I have to know if my efforts are fruitless, because another man is taking over. The fact that she be having an affair doesn't hurt as much as the fact that she may not have any love left for me. I will keep working on myself, and try to ignore the big whole in my chest

Many people on the forum would commend you on hiring a PI. I'm personally not going to hire one. Some people see it as "dropping the ball" on my part. I don't care if she is cheating. I'll turn over that stone myself when and if I stubble upon it. I'm working on myself. I'm by her side, and visible. Staring it in the face if it will do the same for me. I'm willing to love her....give her the world, but I don't need her. Maybe I dropped the ball. That is my decision to make. I have felt weak and powerless. I have blamed, felt rejected and greived. Unloved. I know now that nothing is black and white. But I am not afraid anymore.

Guess I am still a few steps behind you FB.

I have been doing better with R talks after noticing my faults, and am trying to make myself better..but I still have much fear of losing her, of what we had. There were wonderful times. Maybe ten wonderful to 1 bad even. And although the wonderful have gotten less, I still remember clearly. She is everything I've always wanted, everything I wish I could be. I fear being alone, without her and the stepdaughters. I keep trying to work on the fear, and it is consuming me, it's winning the battle. I hold it in around her, but when I go to work it takes over.

I beleive the relationship is only emotional with the om, and am trying to better myself so maybe she will want to be apart of my life again. She sees my changes as an attempt to win her back. I told her I know she will do what she wants, and just want to better myself. She doesn't buy it. She sees nothing sincere in me because she is involved with him (imo).

Being direct and honest has helped in my talks WantWifeBack. I let my wife know that I was going to make steps to meet her needs, while stating that I realize that I had wronged her in the past. Of course alot of this came out in the early phases of the conflict, so I was still very much eluding to my own fears, guilt and blame. She is still with you and those good times that you had in the past go a long way... she remembers them. Another thing that has helped is we started doing things together ASAP. Once I worked out alot of baggage internally I stopped withdrawal and actually enjoy being around my wife again...just to be around her. I'm finding it easier to talk with her and the more she sees that I truly enjoy her presence, she is opening up too. Instead of spitting venom at each other, we are starting to do the courtship dance all over again....and it feels wonderful.

My wife has started talking about OUR future again. We are heping each other out now rather than just doing for the sake of getting things done. You are right Loving....she is using me as a stepping stone to work out some of her own issues. I feel honored that she is still able to put that trust in me. She is starting to open up in ways that I never thought possible. I see now that she always wanted to put that trust in me, saw potential in me, but she was unsure. I'm seeing our conflict as an opportunity to raise to the occasion rather than playing the blame game. When I cry now, it's because I see hope.

And yes I've had some rough days at work. People said some things around me, not knowing fully what I was going through, that would hit too close to home. I broke down on several occasions. I also had some moments of clarity about where I needed to go from here in my career, which probably wouldn't have occured without this conflict. It becoms all too easy to dwell on the negative. It's when I started counting all my blessings that I pulled out of my funk. I bet you can do the same.

So during the weekend we spend time cleaning the garage together. When her friends called for her to go out my wife said "I'm spending time with my husband tonight". She would usually go out with her friends. In fact she would sometimes find ways to ditch our plans to go out with her friends. We went to a romantic diner together and had some decent conversation. The table was candlelit and once when my wife was asking me something I got distracted by her beauty. I wanted to make it clear that I was distracted rather than trying to ignore her. I told her this and she stated "I feel uncomfortable with you complimenting me so much...I wished you wouldn't compliment me so much.". I told her I would try and respect her request. My wife has a negative self image problem. She revealed to me that she always wanted to wear a dress, however was unsure about how she looked in a dress. I told her that we should go and look at dresses together and she how they look on her. My wife said that would be great as long as I would be honest about how she looked. I told her I would try once again, but that it might be difficult due to the fact that I think she looks wonderful in just about anything.

I don't know...sounds like progress to me.

Not denying the self image issue, but perhaps too many compliments comes off as overdoing it. By that I mean that maybe she doubts your sincerity since it's coming so frequently?

Yep she probably doesn't know what to believe. Me either concerning her. I know what I feel. If she doesn't want to hear it I can respect her wishes.

mel, quite right. Growing up, my mom kept telling me how beautiful I was. So much so, in fact, that I finally decided I must really be ugly for her to try to prop me up so much. I've hated my looks ever since and cannot be objective.

fb, what can you do to build up her self-esteem? Go to the book store and look for some books to read.

Her looks are not the only thing I compliment her on, so it's not like I'm focusing on one thing. I tell her how smart, kind and cosiderate she is. I massage her feet about every other day. I have been performing acts of service and spending quality time with her. I really don't know what else I can do in order to make my wife feel good about herself. She still seems depressed to frequently. She refuses to seek professional help regarding this and I won't push the issue anymore (I've already told her that I feel she needs medical intervention and the counselor told her the same thing). Honestly her life seems to be going better than mine. I get blue sometimes, mostly at night when I'm tired and sh*t starts wearing on me, but I'm happy and carefree most of the time. I would like my wife to be happy, but if I focus too much on it that would be trying to control her. Been down that road, don't like it.

Everything is much better now besides the thing that set up our conflict in the first place. I have only had sex with my wife once since she said "love you like a brother" bit. I have to admit everything feels better except that she is still very unavailable to me sexually. We had a great night tonight...talking and going to the movies. Tonight, when we got home, I was just honest and said "I would like to make love to you". She said she was too tired. Then she stays up for 30 minutes reading. I confronted her about it. "don't get offended, reading helps me relax". All I could say was "I am not offended". Which I'm not, but I am confused. I just said "maybe tomorrow night?". All she said was "maybe". But I won't let it slide. I am going to keep working on our marriage for now. I can't keep loving somebody indefinitely and not getting my needs met. I feel like she is getting all the benefits of a husband striving to do all the right things, while she sits back and disrepects my needs. Honestly, I can do better on my own.

Another odd thing today. I worked out for about 3 hours today. Not because I think it will improve my relationship, but I think it will improve me. I believe worst case scenario, I can at least be happy with myself. When my wife found out about it she seemed iniatially offended...like I was crazy for exercising that amount. I just told her I was tired of being out-of-shape. Then something odd... she kissed me with so much passion I almost feel over. So many mixed emotions.

FB,

I saw a post you made on another thread and wondered about it. I read where you said you were also dealing with a WW...and I was confused. I think I missed something. Did you find some evidence?

Or do you see the wayward mindset?

LA

No I just realize that my wife has a wayward mindset. Wether physical, emotional or fantasy it's there. It's the mindset that keeps from her totally giving herself to me. It would be easier to have something concrete that I could confront. Until then I just know my wife is wayward....matters little if it is fantasy or reality at this point in the game. I know that her mindset is real.

FB,

Thank you for your reply. I realized why I'm having a difficult time understanding your situation--I've been so committed to not assuming that your choice to assume and not know is boggling my mind.

That's not me bashing you, btw. That's me wrestling this around in my own head. Haven't seen this choice before on MB...it's new to me.

I think I get it, though. Let me know if I'm off--you're in Plan A without the exposure component.

Have you considered asking to do communication exercises with her? I wrote about them on EWSII's thread in GQII, if you're interested.

LA

Hehe leave it to me to turn it chaotic. No I have to admit that I am barrowing different techniques from different sources. In my initial fit I just read and read and read. I am using some marriage buiders techniques, along with some stuff from other sources. MB, friends and parents say hire PI.....counselor tells me not to. My gut feeling tells me not to hire a PI. I beleive that the wayward mindset was leading my wife towards an affair, I don't know wether she got there or not....either way it's going to be difficult to prove even with a PI just because of different factors. My wife knows I'm eagle eye lately and she is trying to work on the marriage now more....I think this is enough to discourage her from going through with anything affair wise. Plus I trust my wife's morality not to have a physical affair. I have told her my beliefs regarding emotional affairs. I have not accused lately. Although she was going down the wrong path initially, I think she is making the right decisions for us now. I realize that this is my bed to lie in, so forgive me if it goes against the common logic of this site. I will look at your section on communication, thank you. I have found much of what is taught here very useful. I believe that it is helping my marriage. I see a giddiness in my wife lately... like a teenager who is struck by love again. My perception, true or not....but enough to change my actions to a positive one. I see she is consciously spending more time with me and seems to enjoy being around me....laughing at my stupid jokes and communicating more. When given the option of going out with freinds, she makes the decision to stay with me more. That is her decision to make, I don't force or guilt her. I try to let her know that she can have her own life and independence, that I can manage on my own. I think the more I lead by example, she realizes that life is more about choices and less about fate. I think my wife fell victim to the "I don't feel anymore, so I can't" train of thought. I almost feel victim to that when she said she didn't love me the same anymore. The temptation to give up was great. But I instead I fought.

And you keep fighting...

That's what I see.

How's the 15 hours of UA time? I understand the giddiness, her taking delight in your company again. Sounds like you're very present, aware and attentive now.

LA

I had some relationship talk with my wife yesterday. It had bene a couple of weeks since we did this, so I felt we should engage. My wife stated that she did not know why she feels the way she does (same scenario of every talk just about). I told her that I was very sorry that she was feeling this way, but that I didn't believe that she was being totally faithful to me (at least not in her heart). I told her that I was willing to forgive and forget....and to work on the present. I told her that I was sorry that I didn't trust her in this matter and that she could be mad at me for this if she wanted to. I told her: 1) I had no regrets about the time I spent with her, that I could at least look back and state that I had some amazing times together 2) That although I was going to try and work on the relationship and was mainly going to work on myself 3) bottom line that I was going to be happy....with or without her. I told her that although she meant everything to me, I couldn't force her to treat me as a husband. I told her that I derserve somebody that respects me and that I am a worthy person. I told her that I was done being depressed about our relationship. I basically hinted that it was time for action (from both parties). I believe that I could help make her happy...if she would allow it. I told her that at any time she could pull the plug on our marriage and I would leave. She acknowledged that: 1) I am a good person 2) I am willing to try and make her happy 3) that I was trying hard to met her needs. So I was like "What is the problem then?". She basically says that I'm everything that she wants or needs, won't tell me any other way in which she needs me to met her needs, but won't except me fully as a husband. Sounds crazy because it is. Today my wife informed me that she saw a doctor and is going to take an anti-depressant. I guess our conversation struck a nerve. This is the action I've been waiting for. It may not cure all our problems but it as least shows me that she is trying to make changes and she cares about our relationship.