Found out that my WH is drinking almost an 18 pack a night. Guilty conscious maybe? It doesn't make me feel any better, but perhaps shows that he isn't as unaware or uncaring as he seems?

It definitely shows that your WH is trying to run away from himself and his thoughts.

That level of drinking is to blot out reality. Once I was drunk enough I didn't have to think any more. I was aiming for numbness and that what's my drinking did. I felt like death the next day but at least I'd got through another night.

I don't see that at ALL.

BS's are told to ignore the fog babble but NOT for the reason you suggest.

Would YOU believe or listen to anything a falling down drunk told you? Of course not. You would just ignore it. Why? Because it makes no sense, is wrong and is not rational. Does that excuse it? NO!

The "fog" makes it possible for the BS to understand what is happening. That's all.

I agree with Jen. I think the fog is a way of looking at the thought process, rather than an excuse for immorality. Decisions were made and for many it does seem to be the slippery slope of some conversation, too much personal conversation, the start of physical attraction and the short leap into bed and the passion of an intense relationship. At any point, the correct decision should have been to run the other way. In my case, I don't really view it as abuse so much as neglect (maybe this is semantics) because I don't think the intent was there to hurt me - even though that was a huge result. It was all part of his messed up thinking.

My WH certainly made morally wrong choices at various points of the EA and then PA. No excusing that. And he has to live with the consequences, both in our M and in his work life. After I exposed the A to the OWH, things spun up at work and my H reported the A to his boss about 4 weeks after D Day. Because he is military, the consequences were severe. But it is also part of putting things right, ending the lies and regaining a sense of honesty, honor and character. It has taken time, blunt, seemingly never-ending discussion and hard work to look inward and I think maybe that is fog lifting.

AM
AM

I would say, at least for me, if I had been happier with our marriage the fog wouldn't have had a chance to roll in (I've had guys hit on me before where I didn't make bad choices or allow things to slide). Unless you're a sociopath, I don't really think that happy marriages have affairs...but what do I know. I would have bet my life that I never would be here and here I am.

Obviously being unhappy doesn't excuse it either...but not what your question was about. Maybe being unhappy is the beginning of the fog...think about it, when depressed (i.e. unhappy) it is harder to see the good in things (i.e. your marriage) and some people hit the rock bottom before they can see the sun again. Then the question is, what are you going to do to get happy again with your marriage (without turning to confide in OP)?

I've been wanting to comment on this thread for a while, but haven't had the time. I don't have much time now, but offer this.

I don't think "fog" is an excuse for anything. I do think it is an explanation of what is taking place in the mind of a wayward.

Each tiny step along the road to a full blown affair is just that, a "tiny" step. While there are cases where a person actually decides to have an affair and might even do it as a way to hurt his or her spouse, I think that those cases are actually pretty rare.

What I think happens most often is a process that usually begins innocently enough, at least in the mind of the wayward spouse. There is some kind of connection with the still future affair partner that seems totally innocent at first.

This can be a common interest in a hobby, music, work, sports, kids and even church activities. One or both of them see no harm in the discussions or the activities they share, so neither one even considers that they are on the road to an affair.

But at some point, they begin to share things about themselves that are important and personal. Often, it actually probably begins with a discussion of their marriages and difficulties they might be having. It might be something as superficial at first as the woman saying, "My husband works so many hours and the kids and I never get to see him except when he's asleep on the couch..."

Since conversation, openness and honesty, admiration, and other seemingly less important things are all Emotional Needs, each and every conversation with another person has the potential to make Love Bank deposits. While not looking for an adulterous relationship, these deposits begin to make us feel good in some way and if not avoided, huge balances can be built up, especially if one of these ENs is something that is being neglected by our spouse.

I think at this point there is sometimes a recognition of the road that they are on and some make a decision to end their "friendship" before it can go any further, while others, maybe starving for having their needs met, begin to justify what they are thinking and feeling. The justification process I think is a big part of what constitutes the "fog."

It starts to come down to a simple equation. OP makes me happy, I deserve to be happy and therefor, I choose to be with OP. Added to that is the laundry list of what is missing in the marriage, since every marriage is really missing something, and the justification builds up to the point of full blown entitlement.

This is especially true I think in our current culture where movies, TV, books, radio talk shows and self-help groups all support the notion that we deserve to be happy above all other things. Compounded with the idea that "love" is something magical, mystical and that merely happens to us and that we are helpless to avoid or prevent, the fog by now has really taken hold. At this point the wayward mindset is such that only the feelings they get from OP matters to them. They are really willing to abandon everything else that they ever held dear and run off to fulfill their desire for the feeling.

There are chemical reasons this occurs that take place in the brain and can be researched on many sites from places like this to medical research sites. But the fact of the matter is that those chemicals acting in the brain really do have the effect of blocking the desire for the spouse while at the same time seeking ever higher feelings with the now AP.

It does not justify the decision to cheat, but does go a long way to explaining how an otherwise conservative middle-aged housewife or husband of 30 years can fall into an affair without even seeing it coming.

Frank Gruzbeurg I think has said that men, more often than women, fall into an affair by accident at a much higher rate. Women, he suggests actually make a decision to check out of the marriage before actually beginning the affair. Coupled with Dr Harley's article on this site about why women leave men, Why Women leave Men, and I can believe that is the case. Women, longing for the affection, attention and conversation they are not getting from their husbands may actually decide the marriage is a waste of time before ever meeting their affair partners.

I think that in those cases, the marriage was in fact in trouble long before the affair began, but because men and women in general have such differing ways of communicating needs and wants to each other, the signs are easily missed by the husband who sees his wife's attempts at discussing things as nagging and so he too begins to check out. Once both spouses are in a state of withdrawal, neither of them is actively pursuing the relationship. Men will likely try to wait things out, looking forward to a day when they can retire and then figure they will begin to spend more time with their wife. Women, I think, might be even more vulnerable to an affair at this point than the men, since much of what they desire from the relationship has nothing to do with sex, but more to do with conversation, affection and openness and honesty. These are things that are easily met by other men in circumstances far from nightclubs, bars, singles forums and the places usually considered spots where affairs begin.

Even study groups at church can be breeding grounds for affairs unless those involved can protect their weaknesses. And this is really how to avoid an affair, protecting oneself when at our most vulnerable determines who will have an affair and who will not, IMO.

But no matter when the fog begins, it does not lessen the consequences of an affair nor absolve the cheater of responsibility for making that decision. Those who never have an affair, protect themselves from one early in any relationship with other people while those who have affairs do not.

One side of the brain controls and has to do with rational thought. The other side has to do with feelings. When one side is hyperactive, the other side is pretty much subdued. The feelings side control emotions and all the rest of the stuff that goes with an affair, so while a decision is being made, it is not a rationally based one, but rather one based on feelings. And this I think is the bottom line of what the fog is all about.

As Robin Williams has said, "The trouble we have as men is that we have two heads and only enough blood to make one work at a time." I think this is really a matter of what part of the brain is making the decision at any given time. One side is logical and the other is all about feelings. The feelings side also causes chemical reactions in the brain that activate that part of the brain that has neither rational thoughts nor feelings and is all about instincts. Once these instincts take over, thinking is out and only desires and base feelings matter.

And that is where the fog is so thick we can't see our way out of it and nothing seems to get through to us from outside either. Not an excuse, but an explanation.

JMO

Mark

Simple answer for me, Not2.

It's is like all fog, it begins slowly and intensifies as the "temperature gradient" difference increases.

It begins when the WS "allows" themselves to feel "entitled" to more than they think they getting from their spouse.

It increases when they think THEY don't have to work at things in their marriage and are entitled to seek it "without work" elsewhere.

It envelops when they emotionally invest in someone other than their spouse.

It becomes "pea soup" when the affair heats up and turns physical.



I don't know if that was what you were looking for, but there it is, one man's opinion on the subject.

I just found one succint line on another thread, that's as good a definition as I've seen yet.
This is a quote by FH:

"(Fog)That's a euphemism for "sin is blinding to those caught up in it."

Mark,,

You stated things eloquently as usual (hey, I was secretly hoping you would reply....your insight is generally right on....). I really like your explanation of the process....

not2fun

FH,

This is EXACTLY what I was looking for.....

"It BEGINS when the WS "allows" themselves to feel "entitled" to more than they think they are getting from there spouse..."

Couldn't have said it better myself.......

Actually this whole post just ROCKS......

not2fun

bumping for those who haven't seen the two great responses from Mark and FH.....

Not2fun:

I would like to add something else. In your original post, you mentioned how people say that "it's just the fog" about basically any behavior that a wayward does.

I'd like to entertain the thought that this is not 100% accurate and in some ways can "excuse" abusive behavior of a wayward that might still be there, even if there was no A.

I didn't get to read ALL of the replies to this thread and someone else may have mentioned this.

A WS can have abusive behaviors for years before they take the turn to Adultery.

I don't think anyone should take this lightly because when the dust (fog) settles, the abusive behavior could potentially still be there and have nothing to do with the A.

JMO in reading between the lines on what you were asking for clarity on.

Cause as Dr Frank Pittman explains: " the decision to actually enter into an affair, happens long before the act itself."

I got beat up over that a couple of weeks ago, but it seems to me, to be absolutely true.

He has also stated, that : "It can make the S who feels he or she is a victum, fee ALIVE again."

All Blessings,
Jerry

OnlyU,

Yep, I understand. I never looked as the fog as an "excuse" or justification. Though it did help me understand some of the off-the-wall things WS would say.

And as far as reading between the lines, YOU CAUGHT ME...

not2fun

ps....read my response to Jerry to see what I mean about "in between the lines..."

Jerry,

I am not sure why you got beat up over this, but I have to say I am in agreement with you and this line of thinking. I think for some WS they make this decision (subconsciouly at first...) relatively soon before they are actually in an A and for some WS they enter this line of thinking LONG before an affair.

For our sitch, WS let me know 5 yrs ago he was totally unhappy and we needed help, and that I was not meeting his EN's. Heck, I have a letter to prove it. But it went unnoticed, or at least put on the back burner.....so to me I would think that he entered WD long, long, long before his A. Heck, he was having an "affair" with his work before the BOW came into play....

Anyway, I am not dwelling on this issue too much and an answer really isn't necessary for me to recover. I really have wondered about this a long time (soon after I got here....) and really just wanted to open up the discussion line on it.....

not2fun

For me, the "fog" or whatever you want to call it, sets in as soon as a married person decides it is possible to pursue what they want independently of their spouse. I say this because you can't be independent and happily married at the same time and to me, thinking you can is the first "foggy" decision.

I may not have the words to describe it completely, but I use "independently" in a broad sense. It is essentially when one spouse forms opinions or beliefs, assesses feelings or motivations, and takes action on those things without real input from their spouse. (Often times without any input from anyone) Not having this input can be due to not requesting it or ignoring it, but it results in the same thing.

When I observe what WS's say, one thing that jumps out at me is how often their words seem to imply a marriage model of "you worry about you, and I'll worry about me". Two independent people as opposed to an interdependent couple.

Most excellent post (as usual) rprynne...and Mark and FH.

For me, I was in a fog much of my marriage, although the A fog didn't happen until a couple of months before it started. I was always a "don't tell me what to do" kind of person, and although I staved it off sometimes...when it came to the things I really wanted to do- BACK OFF!

This is also a form of fog, and that type of mentality actually makes it even easier to justify things with stuff like "I deserve to be happy" and "you can't help who you fall in love with" etc.

And I don't mean to sound like I walked around demanding "my will be done" or anything...W2S and I were a pretty good team for the most part! It's just that I see NOW what mindset (fog) I adopted for much of my life and my M. It has been very hard to adjust that frame of mind, but I have gotten to the point where the good of the family will ALWAYS come first to me from now on. My husband's happiness, and the kind of M and love he deserves is what drives me...not my own wants and needs.

This is tough to explain! I think the last section of the Wayward Mind thread is where I addressed the issue, but not from the "when does it roll in" aspect. I think it is human nature, also, to operate from a standpoint of "me" and not "us." So many people take root in that mindset, and then spend their lives cultivating it. Until, that is, something tragic happens which then moves people to begin to see things from a different perspective. How many times have you seen stories of people who had near-death-experiences and survived, and then came back and completely turned their lives around. Realized they had it all wrong and re-arranged their priorities.

But not all waywards shake this fog, obviously and unfortunately. But, I agree with you guys 100% as to when it rolls in with regards to an A.

I'm going to be the dissenting voice here. I had NO intention whatsoever of entering into an A. NONE. It was beyond the realms of my imagination. Even when I saw the OM again for the first time in 30+ years I certainly had no intention of having an A with him. Yes, I was pleased to see him after all those years and I thought it was amusing that we still got on as well as we always had, but the thought of actually having sex with him was just laughable in my mind.

I was also most definitely not abusive to my H in any way whatsoever before I embarked on the A. I had been a wonderful, loyal, affectionate, sexy wife to him for 28 years.

Jen, I don't think I am familiar with your whole story. Can you explain how you ended up in bed with OM? How long before that moment, did you realize you were headed there?

KeepitReal, I don't mind telling my story. It's probably a t/j for here but I'll give the background.

The OM contacted me by email on the Monday after we'd seen each other at the funeral for our mutual friend, which was on the Friday before. He knew where I worked and found my email address. That flattered me, for a start. He asked me to lunch. I admit that's when the fog drifted in. I was excited and flattered that he wanted to see me. At the lunch I couldn't eat I was so nervous. I hadn't told my H I was meeting the OM and that was the start of the secrecy.

At the end of the lunch we said goodbye, very formally, and I started feeling very nervous and very guilty. I received another email the next week for another lunch and, by then, I was looking forward to seeing him again. At the end of that lunch he kissed me goodbye. I should add that, even though we'd gone out for 5 years as teenagers, we'd never had sex.

After that kiss I couldn't concentrate on anything. I waited to get another email so I could see him again. The next time, the OM suggested we have our lunch in the park. More kissing and then a bit of fondling. I still didn't think it would develop into a full blown PA. He put his hand on my leg and I said in a very shocked voice "WHAT do you think you are doing?"

More lunches, three months of lunches, each time going to park somewhere after lunch and an escalation of touching. One night, I lay in bed thinking "I'm going to have sex with him. That is going to be the next step." I had stomach cramps and anxiety attacks whenever I thought about it but I saw it as "inevitable". The next step.

It took a while to be able to meet during an evening but I knew that was going to be the time. That's when I'd decided I'd reached the "no turning back" stage. So, that's when it happened. Then my H and I went away overseas for three weeks. The trip of a lifetime to Italy. I kept in touch with the OM by email the whole time we were away and the whole thing escalated in my mind to the "love affair of the century".

So, when we got back the A escalated. We had sex 10 times in all over 18 months but there was a lot of what we used to call "heavy petting". The OM ended the A, my H found out six months later and recovery began. After a while, the OM began emailing me again and my H called his W when I told him that the OM had been in touch.

The only thing wrong with our marriage during the time before the A was that my H was in deep grief and very deep depression over the deaths of both his parents the previous year. My father had also died the same year and it was a terrible, horrible year for us. When the OM turned up again after 30 years it was like a release from the pain of what was happening at home. That's what our MC called my "incredible immaturity". Running from a situation when it got too hard for me instead of behaving like an adult and trying to reach my H through his depression.