http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3600_state.html

I asked about Withdrawal because he is turning down SF and noncommunicative, but the AOs point to Conflict. I didn't know he was still AOing you like that. I looked for an article, this was the closest that I found:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5006b_qa.html

Good for you cat, for protecting yourself and your marriage by getting away from that verbal abuse! Is it enough? Are you safe? Does he follow you?

Thanks cat.

Right now I'm in the bedroom with the door closed. It seems I usually end up going here and he gets the whole rest of the house. I know I stay back here too much, on the computer usually, and I wish I spent more time engaging with my family, but more than once he's actually said in an argument "go to your room!" including the last time when he was pushing me. So my tendency to like the quiet of the bedroom to waste too much time online is backfiring on me, too.

Last night he went to bed in the guest room and I didn't even know he'd gone to bed. I kept waiting for him to come to bed, and finally I got up to get a drink of water and all the lights were off and I found him asleep in the guest bedroom. I dunno if he went in there when I was putting the kids to bed but I thought the lights were still on at that time... He always has to have "his pillow, he even takes it with him on trips in his suitcase, so at some point he must have gone into our bedroom and gotten it when I wasn't looking. Maybe he "planned ahead" while I was putting the kids to bed.

So this morning I said "If you slept in the geust room cus I had my books out on the bed I would have moved them when you were ready." He said that wasn't why; I asked him why then. He said it was cus he didn't care for my "melodrama." I asked what melodrama... oh it's too long to do a whole he-said-she-said... Basically he didn't like how I tried to talk to him about the sparkler promise in front of the kids. I said I didn't feel like I had any other choice if I was gonna say anything, cus I feel like he doesn't allow any communication so I gotta get stuff out there however and whenever I can. He went on and on about the sparklers. I kept trying to say it wasn't the sparklers, it was the promise, broken. He said he never promised, I said everyone else in the car understood him to be promising. He said that's not his problem. I tried to tell him that I'm trying to let him know that he's coming across as promising, and as breaking his promises, and that his kids are not believing and trusting him, whether or not he wants to split hairs about whether the words "I promise" came out of his mouth. I tried to tell him that I value H&O and communication and that I feel like he doesn't allow us any communication. He interrupted me several times to yell. I was crying. He yelled several times quite loudly.

He said that communicating with me is extremely unpleasant. I guess I shoulda been doing the "make it pleasant" thing.

I said I wanted us to see a MC or call the one we'd talked to before. No answer. I asked if he'd read past the 1st paragraph of that letter I wrote him the last time we argued (where I'd said I wanted to do MC or at least follow the MB stuff). No answer. I asked where the letter was. No answer. I went and found the letter and handed it to him. He grabbed it, crumpled it up and tossed it in the garbage without saying a word. I got it out of the garbage (this is the letter that after he read it originally, he thanked me for it and hugged me) and put it on the bathroom counter beside him while he was brushing his teeth. Later I found it still there. I've now put it in his underwear drawer so he'll see it. But I totally don't know what to do now, or if I shouldn't have put it where he could find it again.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WHEN NO COMMUNICATION IS ALLOWED AT ALL.

Thanks ears, it looks like I was posting while you were, I just now saw your post. I'll check those links out now, thanks.

That article is almost exactly what goes on! I coulda written that letter! Except that in this particular case the thing I'm unhappy about IS his behavior. So I dunno how I'd implement this advice:


I'm not thinking straight right now, I can't think of a way to tell him such a thing...

I've already been telling him I want to be able to communicate. Maybe we've gone beyond the point of the above "simple" fix, since he thinks communication with me is "unpleasant". I'd forgotten about making sure any "negotiations" were pleasant, and I can see that especially with his distaste for communication in general, the last argument has him convinced any communication will be "unpleasant".

I f'ing want to give up. It's what he wants anyway. He wants me to stop trying to communicate. At this point I think he'd be ecstatic if I went into total withdrawal.

And we have a stupid family vacation coming up, the second (except for long weekends tacked onto work-related trips) since the kids were born. And we'll be sharing a condo with my mom and sister and a couple other friends. I certainly don't want us to be not speaking to each other at that time.

AARRGGHH.

Jayne, on the board, I've heard it often repeated that if someone agrees to POJA and then backs out of their side, then that person goes first. Like first pick up the sparklers, then the library. But that's just a symptom.

I don't think it's a good idea to go to your room, very trapped and isolated, no good energy unless you've managed to create that. Are you a people person? It helped me to spend time with great people. "Hanging with the Winners." I think it helped my kids, too.

Jayne, I'm not trying to give advice, just sharing my experience. I think I slowed down our progress by my staying at any cost. I'm glad that things are good now, but as I get to know my H better and see how strong he is when I'm not trying to shield him from reality, I don't think it would have been such a risky move to request that he to move out until he fixed his anger issues. I did ask him early this year, and it made things harder at first, even though he decided not to leave, but just knowing that his wife wasn't willing to live with him anymmore, but we could handle it.

It really doesn't sound like anything you can handle on your own. I guess I would find a way to somehow get you both to counseling, no matter what.

This is what I was really thinking, but I was afraid to suggest it.

Oh, forgot: ears, no he doesn't follow me. He just keeps working. Usually when I go back out, he's ok for awhile til he gets frustrated again. Part of me thinks he was doing this because he was upset that I had to get hurt because of the mess, cos he cares about me. Part of me thinks he just thought I was whining. Part of me thinks he just wanted the toolbox close to the car, like normal people would be, cos he had to keep waiting til I navigated all the way to the toolbox to get him a tool.

How can I do or say anything? He won't say A WORD. He won't move. He won't budge.

I'm freakin out here.

Can you get out of the house and go somewhere? Get a manicure, go window shopping, go to a park? I really think it will help you, and just might give him a message you're dissatisfied with him right now. Consider it a tiny consequence.

Here's the letter I wrote earlier, after that big huge AO June 21:
************************************************
H,

What I did was wrong and I feel really bad about it. I know that I have to do better when I'm dealing with frustration, and I promise to explore that. Breaking things is unacceptable and it shows clearly that I have some personal work to do when it comes to anger management. What's happening to us right now is really stressful and it's important that I can talk to you and that I know you're listening. I'm sorry I didn't find a better way to communicate that. Please forgive me.

When I want to discuss something that has a time constraint and you walk away with a brief or no answer, I feel stuck and frustrated. Yes, theoretically I should be able to make a decision without your input, but I have been embarrassed before when I tried that and people wondered why I didn't know you had already made other arrangements. This Independent Behavior is a huge love buster for me, and I want you to know how much harder it is to love you when you don't communicate.

I want to stay married to you, but I hate the example we are giving our kids. Me going into withdrawal won't help that, but I don't know what else I can do if the Independent Behavior and Dishonesty (which includes lack of communicating important things) continues.

A good plan that would help me control my anger and not break things would involve us seeing a Marriage Counselor and/or working through the MB exercises. If you won't do that, then I feel I must withdraw emotionally at least some. I tell you because you should know, but you may not even notice.

How things get so physical, on both our parts, concerns me. Us just talking, apologizing, and saying we'll do better has only worked temporarily. I would really like to sit down and work out a plan for solving problems non-physically, and for what to do when things begin to get out of control. Unless and until you agree to do that (which will take a non-trivial amount of time and communication), I am shutting down emotionally because I don't want to reinforce that behavior by dismissing it with just an apology without a plan to solve the problem, and I don't know what else to do right now.

-Jayne
********************************************

After reading it, he came to me and thanked me for it, and I think he said he was sorry too, and hugged me. He didn't say anything more, nothing about the stuff later in the letter.

He never mentioned anything about MC or MB. And I said I would shut down emotionally until and unless he did So I guess that's what he's counting on. Unless he didn't read that far - which I'm sorta thinking might be the case.

MEN SUCK. And not in a good way.

How come no guys come here and enlighten me as to what could possibly going on in that testosterone-damaged brain of his? I'm so freakin tired of us women spending all our energies trying to figure out how to deal with these big huge immovable mountains.

The kids are asking to go swimming, maybe I should take them? I told them to go ask their father, but maybe I should just take them by myself?

"So this morning I said "If you slept in the geust room cus I had my books out on the bed I would have moved them when you were ready." He said that wasn't why; I asked him why then. He said it was cus he didn't care for my "melodrama." I asked what melodrama... oh it's too long to do a whole he-said-she-said... Basically he didn't like how I tried to talk to him about the sparkler promise in front of the kids. I said I didn't feel like I had any other choice if I was gonna say anything, cus I feel like he doesn't allow any communication so I gotta get stuff out there however and whenever I can. He went on and on about the sparklers. I kept trying to say it wasn't the sparklers, it was the promise, broken. He said he never promised, I said everyone else in the car understood him to be promising. He said that's not his problem. I tried to tell him that I'm trying to let him know that he's coming across as promising, and as breaking his promises, and that his kids are not believing and trusting him, whether or not he wants to split hairs about whether the words "I promise" came out of his mouth. I tried to tell him that I value H&O and communication and that I feel like he doesn't allow us any communication. He interrupted me several times to yell. I was crying. He yelled several times quite loudly.

He said that communicating with me is extremely unpleasant. I guess I shoulda been doing the "make it pleasant" thing.

I said I wanted us to see a MC or call the one we'd talked to before. No answer. I asked if he'd read past the 1st paragraph of that letter I wrote him the last time we argued (where I'd said I wanted to do MC or at least follow the MB stuff). No answer. I asked where the letter was. No answer. I went and found the letter and handed it to him. He grabbed it, crumpled it up and tossed it in the garbage without saying a word. I got it out of the garbage (this is the letter that after he read it originally, he thanked me for it and hugged me) and put it on the bathroom counter beside him while he was brushing his teeth. Later I found it still there. I've now put it in his underwear drawer so he'll see it. But I totally don't know what to do now, or if I shouldn't have put it where he could find it again.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WHEN NO COMMUNICATION IS ALLOWED AT ALL."

Jayne, I see by this that you two have problems communicating. It sounds like you create problems and then blame him for not communicating. This is blunt to you just to help you. My friend. I believe you have almost had it with him so you are angry most of the time and any communcation while angry will be rough.

1. He slept in the other room to avoid "bad communcation". You did not leave it at that but demanded to know WHY he slept in the other room, and then when he honestly told you the reason, you jumped all over him. The guy cannot win with you. He loses either way.

2. The issue with the sparklers, if a person tells kids they can get sparklers yet all the stores are closed, that is LIFE. You cannot always get what you want, and JAYNE you...sweetie...have to be able to LET GO OF CONTROL. Life is not always under perfect control, some days kids wont be getting sparklers and some days they will, that is the nature of life. It was not your husband's fault the stores were closed. Yet you blame him anyway. Again, the guy cannot win. If I were him I would give up doing anything for you or with you or with the kids because there is no way it would be good enough for you.

3. Your husband claims that communications with you are extremely difficult and I tend to believe him. I think because of your anger, your blaming him, and your "dog with a bone" style of communicating, you ruin all chance of good communication with your husband. What about HIM, what about HIS NEEDS? Do you care?

4. The thing with the letter. You did not do as I said and divide the letter into manageable parts. Instead you are holding the letter right "into his face" as if you are "holding a bad puppy's nose down into its own pee as punshment while attempting to potty train it".

You are smashing your husband's nose in this letter. Even though he tosses the letter away since it does not mean much to him. You push him to read the letter. Again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again.

WHY!?

Can you see you need a new approach? for all your communications? The letter included? You are so angry inside at him it is almost like LIFE is a dissapointment to you deep inside you are NOT HAPPY and you erupt on him constantly with your extreme dissapointment.

Jayne, what in life did you expect and what things are you dissapointed in? Could you get rid of your inner turmoil and then gently talk with your husband so as not to constantly hurt him and make him withdraw?

I can see you have had it with him, and also with LIFE which may have dissapointed you terribly. Were the twins not what you expect out of life? Are you unhappy with your choice of husband? Do you want more money or time? Most of these things can be changed (well, you are stuck with the twins but most all of your life can be changed)

Why do you hound him so much that there is no communication possible? You are hurting him and beating him with words. In the name of "trying to have good communication". Do you see this?

It does not matter if you take the twins to swimming or he does or no one does. You already did the damages to your relationship by taking your frustration out on your husband. Men are not like women, they do not communicate the same. They want to please us most of the time but we blow it badly when we go on and on about blame like with the sparkler incident and the note incident and the "sleeping on the couch" Incident. You are openly and inside your heart, blaming him for all these incidents.

What man, husband, being constantly blamed for your unhappiness, wants to go to MC or to learn to communicate better? No man would.

If I was "shackeled and beaten" constantly by words from my wife, i would tend to slink away ASAP silently.

BUT HIS SILENCE IS NOT EVEN GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU, JAYNE! YOU DEMAND HE TALK. WHEN HE TALKS, YOU BERATE HIM, WHEN HE IS SILENT YOU BERATE HIM ALSO. HE CANNOT WIN, THE ONLY WAY HE COULD WIN IS TO GET AWAY FROM YOU BUT THAT IS NOT WINNING EITHER AND HE WILL FACE PUNISHING COMMUNICATIONS FROM YOU WHEN HE RETURNS.

THIS MAN CANNOT:

1. Cannot have a good clear loving talk with you because you will not allow it.

2. He cannot be silent to avoid your wrath because you will not allow it.

3. He cannot toss a note you gave him to read because you will not allow it.

4. He cannot make a mistake, thinking he can easily buy sparklers for the kids, and then the stores are closed, because you will not allow it.

5. He cannot sleep on the couch to avoid your wrath...because you will not allow it.

6. He cannot wake up and have peace after sleeping on the couch...because you will not allow any peace FOR HIM.

7. He cannot do anything right...because you will not allow it.

8. He cannot go away to cool down...because you will punish him when he gets back by your sharp words.

Jayne , I feel like you are hounding your husband for a reason. What is that reason?

1. Is it your childhood training in communication?

2. Is it your great need for some kind of special communication?

3. Do you need more friends?

4. Do you need more fun?

5. Do you need more money?

6. Do you need a feeling of security?

7. Do you want more stability?

8. Are you fearing the CHANGE with moving, etc?

9. Do you just want someone to HOUND at this time of your life?


What are the reasons you are constantly hounding your husband and he can do nothing right for you? The kids dont care about the sparklers, why are YOU still blaming him again and again and over and over again, and again and again and over and over.

Heck if you are so worried the kids are permanently damaged by being promised sparklers when stores were closed, buy them some NOW! And let them have an evening of sparkler play. Or make them some! Instead, you hound your husband and blame him for not being perfect or magically opening the stores for you to get the kids sparklers!

That nite he did not buy the kids sparklers you could have thought of a creative solution like making a tiny fire in the safe area of your backyard and roasting marshmallows instead...or lighting "something, anything" on fire for excitement.

Instead you basically and figuratively "lit YOURSELF on fire with anger" and "lit into your husband" and you have not stopped "lighting into your husband" SINCE!!!!!!!

Stella, I think she is waiting his response because she is used to giving him the authority. If HE decideds it's time to change, then they can work together. She does have the power to make her life happy today, but it is very hard to connect to that knowledge and to choose your attitude when someone you love is hostile and nasty to you.

Imagine, Stella, that your worst tennant is being nasty to you. You know that their attitude is about them and not about you, but it's easy to fall into an old pattern of telling your H, "poor me," so he can hold you and kiss you tell you, yes, they are nuts. Then, you would feel better, and tell the tenant to take a flying leap. But if your H was like, "C'mon, Stella, give it a rest, I can't stand it when you're like that," it's harder to feel better on your own and look at the tennant thing rationally.

That's why I suggested "Hanging with the Winners," getting around people who are happy to be around her and her kids, happy to take their needs into consideration. Evn going swimming and looking for a nice mom with kids to talk to there. To talk to about happy things.

Stella, thanks.

I just took a long shower and am a bit calmer now. I think you have a good point, that I've made communication so unpleasant... and I thank you for coming here to present "his side". I'm taking to heart almost all of what you said. I'm gonna address things not to nit-pick but to clarify.


I agree. Thanks for being blunt.


I see your point, but in this case I didn't jump all over him, I did try to say it nicely, allowing for the possibility that he'd had enough time for it to "blow over" and hoping it would be the start of a better day. I tried to be neutral-to-positive, and to open the lines of communication. I can see now the damage was done already.


I'm not upset about the sparklers, I'm upset because *I* thought I heard him promise to get the sparklers the next day, stating very firmly that they would be available, even though I was trying to say not to make such a promise because I didn't think they'd be available.

This morning it came out (I think; I can't tell for sure, but this is what I heard) that when he said on the 4th that he saw sparklers in the store on the 4th and he should've picked them up while he was at the store on the 4th, that he actually meant he saw them in that store back in January and it may not have been that store after all.

Keeping promises and not telling lies is a huge LB for me. That's my side of things. I would've been happy if he'd not said he saw sparklers on the 4th (this was in response to me asking if he'd seen any place to buy fireworks while he was doing errands that day), and if he hadn't told the kids that we'd be able to get sparklers on the 5th.

His side of things, according to what I've heard him say, is just what you just said. Am I really sounding like it's the sparklers, and not a deeper issue?


Wow. This could very well be true. "Dog with a bone", I can see I might do that.

What about him and his needs... His biggest need at the moment is for me to leave him alone. Ok, I'm doing that at the moment. Now what? I don't see how anything can possibly get better under those conditions. Maybe for him, that's the way to move past this - to just ignore it until things calm down... and then to continue to ignore it.

That makes things so much worse for me... the way I get past things is by talking about them. The very act of not talking about a problem becomes a larger LB than the original problem.

I see that these two ways are diametrically opposed. Now what? Do I just stuff my need to talk things over?

Ok, here is where I give myself the whole "He's not the one here, you are, we're gonna work on what you can do" MB talk.

So I should continue with the emotional shutdown, and leave him alone?


Sorry, I liked your idea but I'd already given it to him by the time I read your suggestion last time. Then we went on the trip, he left the letter here, and I thought it was best to have some good non-relationship RC time.

This morning was the first time I'd remembered that the letter had asked for MC or MB stuff. And I didn't remember your suggestion.

Ok, I'll remove it from anywhere he will see it. Should I now try to give him pieces of it, or at this point should I just leave him alone?


Yes. Absolutely. An entirely different approach.


I truly don't think that's what going on inside my head... I get very very angry and frustrated at what I perceive as dishonesty and refusal to communicate. But otherwise, things are looking up for us as a whole. It's stressful though.

You could be seeing something I don't realize though.

Most of the time I'm not hounding him. As a matter of fact, I've been somewhat in withdrawal. There's even been several incidents in the past week where he said something that normally I might have disagreed with or argued with, and instead I just gave him a blank look and walked away.


It ISN'T THE SPARKLERS!!! It was already past their bedtime. They didn't need sparklers, but they didn't need to be promised that they would get sparklers the next day!!!!!

About buying some now, THEY AREN'T AVAILABLE! His promise that they would be able to buy some on July 5th was a LIE. It was a promise I was trying to get him to not make!!!

I wasn't trying to get him to buy sparklers, I was trying to get him to NOT say he'd buy some the next day!

Jayne, he may now look at the letter as PUNISHMENT. Because of your holding it in his face and him crumpling it up in the fight. As a puppy who you are trying to train. So you could write other letters, i dont know how he would take them now.

I think you have to redo, on YOUR part, every word, every action, every bit of "body language" if you want to develop good communication habits for the future.

I know he has bad points also I am just seeing your style now only. If I met the man, i may feel differently like i might then urge you to leave him (the idiot) or some such thing.

I wish we could view him and you communicating on U-tube or something, then we could get a full picture of it.

Your man does not seem to focus much on "sparklers" or when he saw them, etc. They are important to you, and maybe the kids, but not him. You cannot make them important to him. I am sorry but you need to find out what things are important to him.
He did not do that sparkler thing or let you down, or the kids down, on purpose. It was an error, an accident. And you are blaming him as if he did it on purpose. Like a little boy who lies, you are berating your husband over and over and over and over. Why? Do you think beating him with words will HELP?

Ok fine. I obviously wasn't in withdrawal enough. I'll just go dark. Consider that letter my PBL.

Maybe he felt bad he could not get them the sparklers. So he made the promise.

It was not a lie since in truth, he thought he COULD buy the sparklers the next day! (that did not prove to be possible)

It was no LIE, you just thought it was.