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So, as I see it, you want to talk about with your husband issues regarding communication. Right?
You want to COMMUNICATE with your husband your need for MORE COMMUNICATION! Is this right? Yes, absolutely. The individual problems are now nothing compared to my need to just work out a way for us to communicate, no matter what the individual problem may be. *You need two way communication.....Please describe in detail what TWO WAY COMMUNICATION would look like to you. What things would you say and he say in this two way communication.? Taking the sparkler incident just cus it's already been described, not cus it's the most important issue: me: "Oh sparklers would've been a good idea! I haven't seen any of those places selling fireworks, have you?" H: "No not this 4th of July and not in this state, but I did buy some at a regular store back in January. We can get some tomorrow." me: "Are you sure? I thought they only sold those things at those temporary stands, just leading up to the 4th. Are you sure you're thinking about American stuff?" H: "Well I bought something for their birthday... in Canada we can get sparklers any time of year." (or whatever is true, I dunno) me: "Are you thinking of those poppers you got? I really don't think you can get fireworks at a regular store, after the 4th." H: "You may be right. Kids, I'm not sure we'll be able to get them. We'll just have to look." * Does he not listen to you and instead dismis the things you say as wrong, stupid, or irrelevent? Please cite some examples so I can grasp what you mean here.....? me: "Oh sparklers would've been a good idea! I haven't seen any of those places selling fireworks, have you?" H: "Yes I saw some at xxx (the name of the store he went to that same day)." me: "You saw some? Really? Why didn't you get them?" (said excitedly, not accusingly, or at least that was my intention) H: "I dunno." me: "But you saw some?" H: "Yes I saw some!" me: "Can we go get some then?" H: "By the time we get out of this mess they'll be closed. We'll have to wait till tomorrow." me: "I really don't think they'll have any, on the day after the 4th." H: "Well they're gonna be closed tonight, there's nothing I can do!" me: "I know, I'm not saying we can get them tonight, I'm just saying I don't think we can get them tomorrow." H: "Well we can! I told you I saw them there in the store! That's crazy, why would they not have them tomorrow if they have them in January!" and the next day, H takes DS6b to the store and they are in there about 30 minutes with me and DS6a in the car (6a didn't wanna go in) and they come out with some stuff H wanted, but no sparklers, after H had built it up for 6b.
me - 47  H - 39  married 2001 DS 8a  DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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jayne, I edited my post on the last page to add this, not sure you saw it. I missed it, thanks for bringing it to my attention. You can model how to share O&H and set boundaries. Basically, like you said, trust but verify. You can find a respectful way to communicate that this is their Dad's idea, not something that he checked out. Unless he said he verified it already. That's the hand they were dealt. I don't see my O&H with H doing any good... but I think you mean with the kids, right? Make sure I'm )&H with them, and let them know that H may not be promising, may just be guessing?
me - 47 H - 39 married 2001 DS 8a DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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Thanks lil... *hugs* to you too.
me - 47 H - 39 married 2001 DS 8a DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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Maybe if you two are ready to have a talk about communication, you can have notes ready on specifically what you want to say to him. You know, without any LB's or anything.
That way you can get your meaning across without hurting him furthur. I dont know when he will be ready to talk since he has not had any luck talking with you so far.
This is an idea I thought about here!
How many times in that past have your talks gone well?
Last edited by Stellakat; 07/06/08 04:13 PM.
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H: "You may be right. Kids, I'm not sure we'll be able to get them. We'll just have to look." Yes, jayne, you've got it. So at this point, you know that what he says are guesses, regardless of how he puts it. My H would ask, "did you ask them if they're getting more tomorrow? Because they may be sold out." Because it's that important to him. I wouldn't lie and say, yes I did ask, but if I had asked, and then they still didn't have them, he gets real specific, "Who told you they'd have them? Bill? [To the store clerk] Look, Bill said they'd be here, where's Bill?" It is crystal clear to me that it's really important to H that I verify instead of guess, or let him know that I'm guessing, so he can choose whether to verify or wing it. It's not about me, he will double and triple confirm like a hotel or airline reservation, get the names of the people. A good example to me of what fact-finding instead of guessing looks like.
Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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How many times in that past have your talks gone well? I would've said that they had improved over the past couple years and that that recently they had gone well more often than not. I think he wouldn't agree though, just because the very act of talking seems painful to him, no matter how well it goes. The MC had to convince him that it wasn't unreasonable for me to expect a discussion to last as long as 3 minutes. So I think there have been many times when I managed a respectful discussion with no LBs, and while I wasn't fully satisfied (the conversation didn't last as long as I would've liked, and my love bank never did get very full and the issue wasn't completely resolved) the discussion was pleasant.
me - 47 H - 39 married 2001 DS 8a DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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I don't see my O&H with H doing any good Yes, it's good for you! Good for your M! Your O&H stated respectfully is critical! Did you really believe him when he said he saw them? You describe him as getting facts incorrectly a lot. I'm not sure where I got this example from, I think it was LA: Her truth: "You slammed the door." His truth: "You made me slam the door." THE truth: "The door is closed."
Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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So at this point, you know that what he says are guesses, regardless of how he puts it. Yes, and I try to remember that. I try to make sure we're talking about the same thing, to define our term, like the MC told us, from the times that summer when we kept meaning different things when we said we'd "Take the kids swimming". So I try to remember to say, "Wait, what do you mean by 'swimming'? Are we talking about the same thing here?" But I have a hard time remembering to do things like that just in everyday life. I thought he'd seen the fireworks in sale in that store on that day that he was there. It turns out, I *think*, that he meant he'd seen them in that store back in January, and now he thinks it was at a different store, but back in January; and I'm thinking it was those little party poppers where you pull the string and they make a popping sound. So: not that day; not that month; not that store; and not that item. Reminds me of a story, of a guy showing off his antique axe that had been handed down from his father's father and his father before him: He says he's had to replace the handle several times because it broke, and once he had to replace the head or blade or whatever, but he's so proud that he still has the exact same axe his great-great grandfather used to use!
me - 47 H - 39 married 2001 DS 8a DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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This is very interesting. And your brain is so fast and good that it make the leap, the comparison, between your childhood with your mom and you accidental dissapointments with your husband. This reminds me of the book someone here recommended, which has been a huge help. Maybe it was you. It's called Emotional Alchemy. It describes exactly this - the training you received for coping as a child, which gives your brain the first available solution to an adult problem, even if it's not appropriate; it's just what you conditioned yourself as the most effective method to protect yourself. It shows you how to step back and recognize it, and try to stop the comparison and inappropriate response.
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Yes Cat! And also as children, we develop coping survival like responses that are rigid.
Jayne, what was your response to your mother?
1. Withdrawal
2. Confrontation
I can guess. And i can guess why you dont have very many different responses available now in your communication with your husband.
If you were only able to have one response (or maybe two responses) to a cruel parent, then that "ONE response" is the one you will use mainly with another difficult (or percieved to be difficult) person.
JAyne did you withdraw so you would not be abused by mom after mom lied?
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One thing I'm pretty sure of, maybe others would disagree, but it really seems to me like men have a preconceived notion that women are going to harp on them; that they have to expect to have to protect themselves, or hunker down, from the onslaught they're going to get when they get married. So any 'trouble' they encounter in marriage, I think most men just instinctively hunker down and get defensive, rather than 'let's work this out.'
Maybe remembering he's probably doing that will help with your responses. I don't know, just throwing out ideas.
Also, as far as letters go, how about writing him a letter about you and your mother. Tell him you realized what you've been doing, show it to him, apologize, and ask him to help you get past that. Empower him to help you.
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I took the kids swimming. One thing I've been thinking as I read various articles, is there's advice for example on what to do when one spouse leaves; why women leave men for example. But I haven't seen any advice from Dr. Harley to the women before they leave. Reading Al Turtle's article led me to another article, which I think fits my situation even more: The Two Walls (about clinging vs. avoiding) Have you read it? Have you tried the advice? I'd say I'm prolly about 60% or 50% cinging now, maybe was 80% at one time but fading fast except for sporadic remissions. I'd say he's about 90% avoiding. Me taking the kids swimming would seem to fit in with his advice. It still seems to look a lot like withdrawing to me.
me - 47 H - 39 married 2001 DS 8a DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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cat, I definitely agree, I think men have a tendency to hunker down and go into defensive mode, when sometimes all the woman wanted to do was to talk. Ok, I can try to remember... but I'm not good at remembering those things in the middle of something. Sheesh I have such a short memory. I'm really not good at keeping certain things in my mind, like advice/suggestions/goals etc. I guess I should stop telling myself I'm not good at it, and work on getting better at it. Also, as far as letters go, how about writing him a letter about you and your mother. Tell him you realized what you've been doing, show it to him, apologize, and ask him to help you get past that. Empower him to help you. I can't visualize this doing any good. He's really not that type of person. Not a DJ, more like a reasonable prediction based on past history - sort of like how ear's H is (was?) only annoyed by "listen and repeat". H would just be annoyed or feel even more certain that I'm weird and unreasonable and illogical.
me - 47 H - 39 married 2001 DS 8a DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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jayne, I hadn't read that specific article before now, but several similar ones. Yes, I am working on that, to get good at meeting my needs on my own, and with friends of my marriage.
This is how I think this is different than Withdrawal. Withdrawal is when you get mad that your partner is trying to meet your needs. "Why are you doing that NOW that it's too late? Why couldn't you have done that when it would have mattered? You're so selfish, just thinking about yourself all the time. What nerve to think I'd think you're such a nice person offering to do that now after how nasty you were. When you know I'd say no. What a jerk!"
The Space Wall is protecting your marriage when you two are willing to damage it, State of Conflict. "Thanks for the offer, I do love when you do that, but I need to be alone now. Can I take a raincheck? Thanks for understanding. You can ask me again tomorrow."
Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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Stella, for someone with "Kat" as part of their name you sure do use a lot of canine metaphors! I'm "hounding" him, I'm like a "dog with a bone", I was rubbing his face in the letter like disciplining a puppy (which doesn't work btw; they don't get the message, and they just get disgusted. The puppy I mean. That's prolly exactly your point only with humans, huh?).  There was a whole lot there, lots for me to process, I can't answer it all at once. But thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for your honesty and pushiness. There's no one like you. The things you said, I could very much imagine H saying the exact same things. I'm sure you expressed his feelings. Thanks. Your description and the MB article on how men want to fix things and can feel really bad if they can't, ok that brought out my Giver a little bit. No I don't want to be a source of pain for H. I don't want to "hound" him. I don't want to act like a dog with a bone - I was working on learning to let go of things a couple months ago, looks like I forgot. *Sigh* it really seems I can't keep all these things in mind. And then something happens, I lose it and come here, and y'all have to remind me of things I used to know, even some things I've told others. Al Turtle mentions Time-Outs, which is also something our MC had told us to use, whenever H was feeling overwhelmed. A TimeOut is a relational tool and is an essential skill for any intimate relationship. The purpose of a TimeOut is to remove pressure from the relationship. Use a TimeOut whenever you feel overwhelmed, pressed, chased, pursued, cornered, etc. Also use it whenever your partner appears to be overwhelmed, pressed, chased, pursued, cornered, etc. The goal is to create and maintain a relaxed dialogical space, with open safe communication going on. Only the pursuee, the one feeling pressured, really knows when a TimeOut is necessary. Treat TimeOuts as a necessity. Do not request them. Announce and take them. A TimeOut must be non-negotiable. Steps 2,3,4,6,7 are mandatory. The other steps are nice.
1. (Optional and Ideal) The Time-Out-Requiring partner gives a warning that a TimeOut will be requested shortly. “I’m going to need a TimeOut in about 5 minutes.”
2. The TimeOut-Requiring partner gives a clear signal (hands making a T as in football, says, “TIMEOUT,” etc.) indicating the need for a TimeOut – now!
3. Responding partner stops all talking, all action, and waits. This is very important.
4. The TimeOut-Requiring partner states a period of time for the TimeOut. “I need 2 hours.” “I need the rest of the night.” This step signals that this TimeOut is taking place within the relationship and it is not an exit from the relationship.
5. (Optional – Ideal) TimeOut Requiring partner makes a note of what the responding partner was speaking of when the timeout was requested.
6. Both partners separate and are silent until the timeout period is over.
Note: Since this must be not-negotiable, the responding partner is given a choice at this point. If you stop all talking and action, you will get a quiet time with your partner nearby. If you continue talking, you will get a quiet time with your partner out of the area – e.g. driving off for a while. Either way the Requiring partner gets a TimeOut – a time of quiet. When you become good at “silent” TimeOuts, you can try just not talking about subjects that are distressing to either.
7. Ideally the TimeOut-Requiring partner re-initiates contact. If they don't need so much time, they can reconnect sooner. If either person needs more time, they announce this addition requirement when they return.
8. (Optional and Ideal) The TimeOut-Requiring partner initiates dialogue about what caused them to request a timeout.
9. (Optional and Ideal) The TimeOut-Requiring partner initiates continued dialogue on the subject interrupted by the TimeOut and noted in step 5 above. It seems to me that the last couple paragraphs of my letter are sorta doing this, non? Re. step 7, am I supposed to wait for him to initiate communication and the end of the time-out? And what if he doesn't? Or, what if he just starts acting like nothing happened?
me - 47 H - 39 married 2001 DS 8a DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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Thanks ears... so if I'm doing it out of anger then it's withdrawal? What if I *am* angry? I still think I need to do it... I think he needs me to do it... as in, it certainly isnt doing any good for me to keep pushing for communication.
I guess I have a blind spot to everything between the two extremes.
me - 47 H - 39 married 2001 DS 8a DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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Jayne, now that's smart, calling the time out before the AOs start. B ut that's not what happened here. You've been subjected to a lot of unnacceptable behavior, and to be honest I think you owe yourself some protective Time Out time until you see that your H is done attacking you. You can make small EN gestures without exposing yourself to his venom - leave a cup of coffee by the computer for him when he gets up to go to the bathroom, put something in the fridge to defrost for dinner that he likes, put on some music that he likes when he leaves the room and you think he'll be back soon. The next time you go out, take his car through the carwash and fill up his gas tank. You can be a friendly silent instead of a glaring one. Not overboard being pushy, just a few things a day that help you feel like yourself again.
Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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so if I'm doing it out of anger then it's withdrawal No, anger's good, it's a signal. What's your anger telling you, to protect yourself, right? I think that's really protective of your marriage. In that article, there's - The Leaving Wall - "I want to end this." I think that comes from the State of Withdrawal
- The Space Wall, "I'm overwhelmed and need a Time-Out" acting to protect your Love bank from someone allowing themself to attack you. I think this come from the State of Intimacy, your desire to protect your marriage.
There's also 3. Stonewalling - acting in punishment or to get a specific response, I think this would be State of Conflict.
Me 40, OD 18 and YD 13
Married 15 years, Divorced 10/2010
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That feels good, thinking about this time-out as me protecting myself instead of just removing myself from his presence so he doesn't have to deal with me.
I can try to think of some small gestures to make so this will be a friendly silence instead of a glaring one. Right now the silence is deafening.
Thanks for the validation.
me - 47 H - 39 married 2001 DS 8a DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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So leaving or space or stonewalling, which one am I doing? And how can I move to the Space Wall?
me - 47 H - 39 married 2001 DS 8a DS 8b :crosseyedcrazy: (Why is DS7b now a blockhead???) (Ack! Now he's not even a blockhead, just a word! That's no fun!)
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