Jayne, the Alanon phrase is Check Your Intent. I think you're protecting yourself and your kids from the escalation/abuse cycle. That's why I tried to include what the others would sound like, for comparison.

• Withdrawal - Stating that it's over - "I'm so done with you. For good."
• Conflict - Statements to hurt, insult, mock, wound - "Get away from me, you jerk. Can't you see I've had enough of you?"
• Intimacy - Time Out or Boundary statement - "I care too much about us to be around you now [when you're willing to hurt me]. I'm going to take some time to myself now, and I'll be back [in an hour, tomorrow morning, etc.]"

I think you move to the Space Wall by listening to your anger, what it's telling you, choosing your attitude, and acting from your integrity. Working towards what you want, like choosing your attitude and perspective, instead of what you don't want, building frustration arguing or waiting for your H to "allow" you to feel better by his approval

Whooooof! Whooooooooof! LOL

I somehow dont see the abuse that Ears sees your husband do. Is he full of abuse, mocking behavior and humiliations Jayne? If I saw this from your posts, I would be telling you how to kick his everlovin --- you know I would!

And really do you see how much I am HOUNDING you here! I am like a dog with a bone!

Whooooofffff!!!!

(((jayne))) I stayed up too late already, but I'll be back tomorrow.

Thanks, all y'all, for being with me all day and talking me through that.

I've read a lot and I'll be back tomorrow. Feel free to hold me accountable if I seem to forget any of this stuff.

This is what I heard

• He pushes and shoves jayne and the kids around physically when they don't do what he wants.
• He tells her half-truths. Like that he's going to participate getting the kids ready before her interviews, and then changes the plans and doesn't tell her until much later. Like that he saw stuff at the store that he did not really see, because he wanted to go somewhere else first. Like he kept getting paid from an old job and he didn't tell jayne about for the last year, and he didn't discuss whether that would go to paying the bills for the house
• He doesn't work, and he tells jayne one thing about agreeing to cut back, and then does another, buying things that he agreed to hold back on, instead of renegotiating with her

Over time IAgree's advice on Soolee's Profile of an abuser thread rings very true for me. Sometimes people are misunderstood, and they see that it causes bad feelings and try to be more clear. But other people lie deliberately and blame other people like their wife and their little kids for their own behavior. Look, jayne, maybe I am misunderstanding about the half truth thing. Maybe he was trying to tell you these things and you tuned him out the way he tuned you out on the sparklers. Maybe you all clarified further together and found they were just misunderstandings? I'm asking you if I'm getting it wrong.

I think this is where the MB helps bring clarity, negotiating everything instead of "well I thought you knew". Taking personal repsonsibility for our personal behavior instead of blaming it on other people.

Update, but first: yes what ears lists is correct, but somehow it sounds worse when she lists it like that. Or maybe it's that those things happen over the course of months and years, and putting them all in one place seems worse than how it feels.

But I think Stella has valid points too, I really don't think it's all his fault at all. I can see how it looked like I was hounding him. That's not what it looked like from inside my own head, I was feeling increasingly frustrated. But stepping outside of my own view has really been helpful.

I've been doing what to me *feels* like withdrawing, but I think that isn't what others would call it. I think. Please let me know. I think I've basically been doing a "180" and eliminating the hounding, walking away before any discussion gets too much, etc.

To me that feels like withdrawing, because the way, the only way, I make contact or bond with someone is by conversation. So for me to walk away from a conversation, any conversation, to me is passing up a bonding opportunity.

To him, it's prolly a relief, that I'm not hounding him anymore.

In the past 2 days, several times I've just looked at him blankly without saying a response that would've prolly been hounding; several times I've walked away without responding. Twice I've told him that I don't feel like continuing the discussion because when I mentioned something his initial reaction was to tell me my idea was stupid.

I think I'm no longer gonna argue with him to convince him why he should at least hear my suggestion. This walking away is feeling great.

This thing that feels like emotional withdrawal, really feels like I'm protecting myself, setting boundaries. And I would think it would be what he wanted. We've certainly been "getting along" better - although I dunno how you could help it, since I walk away at the slightest hint of an argument.

This feels extremely different. He's being nicer to me too - well, again since I walk away at the slightest sign of trouble, how could that not happen? Basically I'm removing all the negative data points, leaving only the positive data points, which of course will raise the average value.

(Did that make sense for non-geeks?)

That's excellent advice IMHO. How could he not feel better about things, huh?

So that night he slept in our bed again, and even kinda scooted over so he was touching me. We had SF (initiated by me) so maybe he feels more "bonded" now, or maybe that's what he needed to deal with his friend's death.

I swear, the male mind just plain escapes me. I woulda felt so hurt if he had offered SF when I was grieving. Whatever.

Like Al Turtle's article says, the pursuer is the one who must give in, cus the avoider just can't. If the avoider can't deal with the conversation any more, pushing it does no good. So if he needs a Time-Out that's non-negotiable. And I'm getting ok with that.

Honestly though, it feels like I'm hardening my heart. Is there some middle ground I'm supposed to see and I'm missing? The thought of a middle ground scares me, as if I would be being vulnerable. I think I'd like to continue doing the 180 this way. Any thoughts?

Also: I've kept the letter, it's in my purse. Does anyone think he would make the connection between how I'm acting now, and the fact that in the letter I say I'm going to withdraw emotionally unless/until he agrees to MC or MB stuff? Do you think he totally has forgotten what's in the letter? Do you think there will ever come a time when I should tell him that I've withdrawn?

Jayne,

Popping in for the Pursuer/Withdrawer (or Distancer) dance...

How you end this dance is by standing still. You're almost there. You're creeping backwards instead of being the Pursuer right now. See, it's not like you're a Pursuer and he's a Distancer...you do both and he does both...only you guys do them at different times.

So, the key is to stop repeating. You hold yourself to suggesting once and drop it. You did your half. When you hear him say, "That's a stupid suggestion" then you repeat back, "I'm hearing you say my suggestion is stupid to you, is that correct?" Then if he DJs or AO's, you do walk away.

First, confirm or clarify you heard correctly. That's important because locked within this dance you guys do is a lot of filters from the past...you expect him to DJ and AO...and we can fulfill our expectations in very subtle ways to right rather than happy.

If he says, "No, I didn't say it was stupid. I said it was obvious it wouldn't work and why." "You said it was obvious to you that my suggestion, which I thought out the same as you did, wouldn't solve the problem totally or be part of the solution?"

Good friends of conversation. We have to do our part while our lizard is screaming in fear. That's standing still. When you hear him separate his stuff, state it like fact, don't take the bait. It's not. It's his opinion. You wanna make progress, stop getting caught up in the delivery and focus on where you want to go together. Are you going for a one-fix for all on something, doing something differently to change one thing within a complex situation...are you attempting to fix your own feelings from an action...is your goal to have something flow smoothly, without disruption? Think about your own desires, your real goal (like Ears says to check our intent) because when we feel frustrated, it's a signal our wishfulness is taking over reality.

When you begin practicing sharing your own stuff and letting go the possible response (not sharing certain stuff because he will/won't respond in the way you want/don't want)...then you'll experience in your marriage letting go the outcome. You line up your choices to your code...because you're practicing honesty.

SF is can be about acceptance, acknowledgement of existence, being, recognition, affirmation...represents emotional territory...it's another way we express our stuff with each other. Would be great to know when he shares what SF represents to him...doesn't have to represent the same for you. Yours may be more celebrating being, being together, the sacred in you acknowledging his sacredness, too--you'll usually find what Affection represents is within SF.

When you choose to hear his stuff as his stuff, not fact, you'll feel a little removed or withdrawn at first...because you aren't reactive. Reactivity is like our oldest habit...he does A, I do B...flies by us. When we stop seeing others as the cause of our feelings, we lose that automatic reactivity--we revoke our permission to react--and this alone acts to our goal of understanding, then being understood.

Peace is possible...comes from within. You can have it even in a storm around you...it's a choice from healthy boundaries, enforced from love and a strong hand on reality. Takes practice, awareness and knowing you are separate and equal human beings, both beloved by God and each other.

LA

LA, thanks for taking the time to spell it out so plainly... Ok, I'm starting to see that a middle ground is possible. I just had time to glance at what you wrote right before dinner, and I was able to use it during dinner. I think H was actually touched, and opened up a bit. He said something about feeling bad when I'm not happy with the way he does something, and I said I didn't realize that, that I was under the impression he was mad not feeling bad. I apologized for not realizing that, and explained how I could think of him being mad without feeling bad... but if he was feeling bad, that I'd want to know and that I wouldn't want to say something to hurt him. Then I walked over and gave him a big hug, which he didn't seem to mind as much as usual.

I've read what you wrote again more carefully and I'll re-read it in the morning too, to help me remember. Please don't get too frustrated with me if I need reminders! But I think I'm starting to get it.

I think maybe I want to guard against stopping too soon the what-feels-like-withdrawal-to-me? Because it seems to be doing some good... what do you think? I mean, the emotional state... I think maintaining this feeling of "withdrawal", of separateness, of caution... is needed to remember to give him the Time-Out when he needs it, to remember to only say things once and then drop it, to keep from falling all the way back the other way? Maybe I tend to get too enmeshed, or do things on too subconscious a level, or something?

I think I forget to *think* about things, KWIM?

I understand how this can feel like withdrawal to you. I don't think it is in action, I think it's more like a modified 180, because of what you add, that connection in the small scale giving and EN meeting things that you do. LA told me about finding the 90 degrees, and that was a great analogy for me. Giving in small ways that you are enthusiastic about, like how you initiated SF. Instead of being the doormat or going to total withdrawal.

Bumping to see how it's going, jayne

Ok, we're back from our latest travels. Got in about 12:45 a.m. last night/this morning local time, which was 2:45 a.m. according to our adjusted body clocks.

On July 31 we have to be in the town we are moving to, to house-hunt. We also need to be in Canada by Aug. 5 to work on the project we usually spend all summer on. The plan as I see it is to start driving July 30 with kids and family car and a U-Haul, drive through Yellowstone (half-way between current town and new town; we drove through last trip and bought an annual pass and saw a bit; this time we'll see a bit more); spend July 31 in new town house-hunting and dropping off U-Haul and putting stuff into storage; drive the rest of the way to Canada Aug. 1-4 (should only take until Aug. 3 though).

I would like to hold a garage sale before the move, but the only Saturday we have left is this coming Saturday. Talking with H about putting an ad in the paper, finding tables, getting supplies and sitting there all day Saturday when we have so much to do, it's starting to overwhelm me and I'm having second thoughts. H wants to just drop it all off at the Salvation Army. We could do that on our own time scale, say, July 29, giving us more time to go through our things.

I'm trying to learn to be more reasonable in the demands I put on myself, and not over-commit or over-book myself. Should I give up on the yard sale?

If we get a receipt for donations to the Salvation Army, how does the tax deduction work? Say we get a receipt for donating $100. Is that $100 off of what we owe in taxes, or is it just 30% (or whatever the tax bracket is) of $100? Do we have to have a minimum amount of donations in order to get a tax deduction? FWIW H always itemizes our taxes.

You could also freecycle it, Freecycle.org. You can even post it up as a package deal only, and the person who wants to pick up what they want can take the rest to the Salvation Army.

Thanks ears, I'm trying to access that website, I seem to have trouble downloading it though. Using Safari; maybe I'll try Firefox.

About an hour ago I posted my very first item for sale on ebay.

There are 34 other black women's pants in that size.

There's only been 2 views, and one or both of those are probably mine. There's been no bids.

Y'all, this is depressing me! I feel like I posted something on MB and no one posted back to me. I feel rejected.

Maybe I don't have the emotional fortitude to sell on ebay. Who knew?

Hi Jayne, I'd do the Good Will thing and drop them off. The nice thing about the tax write-off is that you are allowed to write whatever seems reasonable to you for the value of the items deposited.

If you do your own taxes online (or using a some type of computer program) you can test out how much you would get back on your taxes. Pull up last years taxes, and then add in the total price of your donated items. Then see whether your tax return goes down.

I have a habit of taking on too much also, so I feel your pain. Sometimes we have to admit that we really can't do it all. Or rather you may be able to do it all, but not everything all at the same time.

Google for an ebay retailer in your neighborhood. With your time frame, you can take everything to him/her, and let them sell your stuff for you, for a fee.

freecycle.org is awesome, if you're not intent on getting money for the stuff. We get tons of activity in our little corner of Houston. I'm talking within 5 hours on most stuff.

When you donate, you only get to claim a percentage. I think 30% may be a high estimate for how much of your donations you can take off your tax bill. But it's better than nothing.

You might do better on ebay if you sell a lot of stuff as one package. Like a whole wardrobe in a size. Or a collection of tapes from a tv show.

Thanks, y'all. Yes, I should do the freecycle or goodwill. I'm really not a greedy person, I just wanna get out of debt and we've had so many recent expenses and are about to have a lot more with the move.

You mean I might could sell all my Babylon 5 or Nikita VCR tapes??? Someone might want those?

Hey, there's land for sale on ebay in the state we are moving to. *boggle* Maybe we can sale our U.S. house and our Canada house on ebay???

Hey, maybe the description could say "as is - comes with closets full of clothes, a basement full of toys and a garage full of junk; no returns accepted."

cat, I had a MrCat moment today - I'd been waiting for two months for some info from my retirement fund company. I happened to see it in the stack of papers waaaaay off in the corner under the phone. I think of that stack as H's stack, and I treat it the way I wish he treated my stacks - I don't touch it. I figure if it's in that stack, he's sorted and dealt with it, and if I move anything I'd mess things up. (I can find things in my "stacks" based on how far down it should be, or even if it's sticking out a bit or at an angle - as long as no one "straightens" it up!) If I had come across any mail for him, or even that he had a half-interest in, I would've verbally told him, not just put it out of sight in a stack without telling him.

In the course of asking him respectfully about that, I found out that he's continued to put my bills in a box in the bedroom. This is the box that I'd tried for about a year to sort through, and I couldn't figure out why things kept getting jumbled and why I was finding things I didn't remember dealing with. I'd had several AOs about that box every time I found out he was *still* simply dumping all the bills he didn't feel like filing himself. About a year ago was my last AO over that box - I guess I may have told him I gave up on trying to get that box sorted. But I've still felt the burden of it in the back of my mind, and it's sitting on "my" side of the bedroom - and I've put some of my own stuff in it with the intent of going through it at some point. But I haven't yet, mostly because I was so discouraged from previous attempts. I found out today that he's simply continued to dump stuff in there. (I'd wondered why stuff I thought I'd put there didn't appear to be there any more - I guess it got covered up by the stuff he put there.)

H has basically told me I'm responsible for packing up this whole house. His reasoning is that it's mostly my stuff, my paperwork, and his stuff is mostly the Canada house.

But I find it impossible to organize things when he's rearranging things also, without telling me.

Would a good solution be to tell him he is responsible for dealing with all the bills-related paperwork, since ever since we've been married my efforts at sorting through such things has been thwarted? Then I could go through the boxes of paper much easier, putting bills-stuff in a box and just pulling out and sorting, filing, or recycling all non-bill stuff.

Another question: do parents keep ALL of their kids' artwork from kindergarten, all homework, etc????? And if so, how do you deal with oversized papers, non-flat items, etc?????????

Hey Jayne,
most of that stuff I'll leave to someone else. In our house I do the accounts, what I cant be bothered with goes to the accountant, end of story

With the kids stuff, I USED to save every little bit till we started moving every 18-24 months. So what I did was go thru it all and keep any of the special things, and anything I felt marked an important developmental milestone. With art work and essentially flat items I pasted them into a scrap book, with dates and the reason for keeping it. Then I bought 2 plastic boxes on wheeels...the kind that is supost to live under your bed, but never do for me, maybe I have really low beds or something. Anyway, there is one for each girl and the scrapbook and items I care about live in them. D16 really cant fit anymore now but she tends to keep her own things now. I did get her a new scrap book for her certificates etc. Since both boxes are the same size, they stack on top of each other in the cuboard we store 'stuff' in. No matter where I live we always seem to have one of those cuboards One day when they move out, I'll give them to them minus the couple of very special things.

Hey, thanks lil! Ok, tomorrow it's off to Walmart for two of those boxes!

And thanks for telling me it's ok to throw away some of that stuff. I have been anyway, but I've been feeling guilty about it.

What would happen if every mother in the whole wide world kept every precious piece of artwork? Would there be a food shortage due to loss of land available for farming?

These are the things I ponder while procrastinating.

Please, someone, just rescue me! I don't care if it's enabling, please step in and just do it for me! I can't handle packing!