Cat, I wanted to reply to this but didn't want to muddy up Rain's thread.

You know, I am the same way but being alone for most of my adult life and having to care for my troubled parent while I was a single mom of a baby, and then toddler and then teen, LOL

I have learned to not worry so much about the appearances of the yard. Heck I work all day long, I want myself to look good, forget the grass, and I want to spend time with DD, and with DH when he is in town.

I'm just saying Cat, it is okay to let some things go. Not the roof, or the leaking toilet or the broken pipes of course, but the little things...don't worry. It takes practice, but like a dirty car, put it on the bottom of the list. Your precious DD's, your self growth, humor, fun, your health, your feelings about your appearance are so much more important.

And there is something else that I really wanted to ask all of you about since I started reading that thread, and I have to add in defense of myself most people who know me know that I value family above all else -

But I wonder if there comes a time when a person deserves so much better than a two time cheat who can't see past their own self serving interests. Is it in the best interest of the BS and family to have to convince someone to stay? Do they ever deserve better than being left to get through recovery with someone who had to be convinced to stay? I am having such a hard time with that thread for this reason.

Mods, if my question to the others is out of line, please move it to other topics as you see fit.

I've considered this and whether I should just pull back from encouraging her to stay.

I kind of decided to leave it up to her BH. He seems to WANT to and everyone has potential.

Like I said on rain's thread, I wish I would have had the chance to TRY - to show our children that they were worth the effort.

I believe her son and husband deserve the chance to TRY.

Rain alone should not get to make the decision.

Unfortunately, as we've seen here often, it is the BS that does the heavy lifting in the beginning of R.

She is the first wayward that I have posted to. SOMETHING about her draws me.

It feels salvageable to me (with my limited knowledge, of course).

I think her faith in a better marriage if she stays is nonexistant. She just doesn't believe it is possible.

I think Plan A and Plan B themselves are an attempt to convince a wayward to stay - and each BS does their best to be believable.

Fox

Josie, thanks for thinking of me. And believe me, my house is no showpiece. I live in a $500,000, 4500 sq ft home and this week is the first time I've had a housecleaner come in, in 5 years. Never could afford it, long story. And I spent 4 years refinishing our old house, so never had time to work on this one I've been in the last 5 years (2 mortgages, etc. for 4 years). Anyway, my house is frankly embarrassing. This house's kitchen has been mopped a total of 4 times. H never helps, D17 only helps when I force her to, so you can imagine the quality. There are holes in our ceiling that H never fixed. There are curtain rods he never hung 5 years ago and I'm afraid to. Our fireplace mantle and the wall around it have huge cracks. We have a cord running across the floor in our bedroom cos H won't get it rerouted. Every wall needs to be painted, marks all over the place. The outside walls are molding. So I'm not really asking for much. But I totally get what you're saying.

As for rain, I have told her H to leave her, a few times I think, on his thread. I think he's crazy for putting up with her. And honestly, I think she will never 'get it' unless he kicks her out and she crashes and burns. But he wants her, so I'm trying my best to get through to her, so she just might not ruin the rest of his life.

Yeah, everyone at least deserves a chance to try. You are so right, because so many BS's here never got that chance.

And everyone does have potential.


Maybe this is what bothers me so much.

I thought so much last night about why some people learn that happiness comes from within, and given freely is when love is born.

I guess this is where true happiness comes from, this realization. This is the difference between living in heaven or livinf in hell.

I believe waywards are in essence living in hell, because they have not learned this.

Mine, too. I currently have four houses, and two of those I live in perpetual fear that the city will call me up and ask what is wrong with me for allowing their current state of disrepair, and you know what, let them. My H does what he can when he is here, I pay for what I can, and the rest will have to wait.

I sure know how you feel. In my next life, I am only renting. Let someone else worry about the state of disrepair for a change. LOL

When I read your post, man, I feel for you. I have so been there, so many times.

Hi Josie, thanks for starting this thread! I also was tempted to post another reply to cat's most recent post on that thread, but didn't want to continue the T/J.

I really want to brag about how wonderful my (ex) neighbors are. They moved away last fall, just less than a mile away though, but the way life is, we just don't see each other like we used to. They were still the ones we called when we needed someone to cat-sit while we were traveling last week. They did everything for me while H was in Canada - turned the sprinklers on in the spring, turned them off and blew them out in the fall, put down the lawn food stuff, mowed, even planted me a garden and took care of it while I was in Canada every summer, so that I came home to tomatoes! I was gone 18 months after the kids were born, due to unforeseen medical complications. Without being asked, they simply took care of the house, the indoor plants, the yard, everything, for 18 months.

That is the true sense of the word "neighbor" in my book.

It isn't relevant but I do want to mention, they are a gay couple - just cus gays sometimes get so much bad press, I want to let it be known.

Re. keeping a nice house vs. time spent with family, when I was a kid I remember reading in some book or other (a novel) about how the mother had the worst yard in the neighborhood, with worn out brown patches and muddy spots from kids playing, and her comment was that she was raising kids not grass. (Was that book "A Wrinkle In Time" anyone know?)

OTOH I've taken that philosophy too much to heart, and without some intervention from my H my household would be in such disarray that it would not be pleasant for kids to live in. Some structure is needed, and some teaching of discipline and cleaning and organizational skills. I get frustrated though when H insists on cleaning up after supper instead of interacting with the kids. I would tend to interact with them and get them ready for bed, and leave the kitchen until after they are asleep.

Ok now, re. whether it's really worth it if a WS has to be begged and convinced to stay with a BS (whew, lotsa good topics we're discussing here!): Yeah, I kinda figure it's the BS's call. If s/he wants to try, I'll support them however I can. I don't really understand rain's mindset so I can't tell if she's just discouraged b/c of guilt, low self-esteem and fog, or if she just wants out of the M. I really wish she'd give it at least one good, honest try. What could that hurt, after all - if her BH wants to try, it should be his call like you say. It isn't for her to choose for him whether or not he's willing to take the risk.

This is something that I have wondered myself. I love dbag (aka my WH) dearly, but sometimes I think it would be better if I just said forget it completely. This isn't the first time he has cheated and I don't know if it would be the last even if he decided he wanted to attempt recovery. This is the only time that my children know about, but what kind of example am I setting for them? Am I showing them a weak woman who would take anything from her husband? It's such a difficult decision.

Jayne, I haven't read the book you mentioned, but one of my favorite all time books was called "Momma Makes a Decision" and in it the authors mom gave not a rats [censored] to convention and she had all these crazy aunts and the house was always a mess, but they had so much love between them.

I can't stand a dirty house, so I am really good about dishes, and a clean kitchen, changing the bedding and all that stuff, but after that the yard work is just too much any more. I used to be such a gardener, but I have let all that go. That sucks, too.

Betterlife,

Your name says it all. For me, with a 13 yo daughter, I know what you mean. I came from a family of very stong women, my grandma and aunts, and it really made me value and cherish women. Not too long ago I almost gave up everything they taught me, to keep a man around that wasn't worth a bag a beans.

Only you can make that call though.

I see you are in Plan B. I'm assuming then that you have made that call.

How's it going? Are you starting to feel some sense of peace and a little bit of joy? That's what Plan B is all about to me.

JJ (W) - sorry for the intrusion on your "ladies" thread, but this question is really at the "heart" of all recovery efforts, "MB" type or any other type.

So I'll give you my "answer" as a "Betrayed Spouse," even though it's from my "male" perspective.


Is it in the best interest of the BS and family to have to convince someone to stay?

No, it's not in their "best interest" IF, and only if, the BS is equally "self-centered" and not interested in "agape love."

If, on the other hand, they truly do love their WS, then "yes" it is in everyone's "best interest" to try all they can to help someone on who is on a destructive path to "come out of the fog and see the light" of what love really is.


Do they ever deserve better than being left to get through recovery with someone who had to be convinced to stay?

Yes, they "deserve better" than an "unwilling, unloving" spouse who isn't in the marriage FOR love and TO love.

No, they don't "deserve better" as none of us is a "perfect specimen" who is "owed" only the best. That "state" is reserved for God, who IS sinless. The "issue" from a biblical perspective is that of "were we 'owed,' or did we 'deserve' what Jesus did for us out of love WHILE we were as 'wayward' from Him as we could be?" What does Jesus deserve in response to what He did?


Again, sorry for the intrusion, and I'll back on out now. You might want to think about posting the question as a general question, though, as I think it's something that at least "crosses the mind" of every Betrayed Spouse at some point, unless they go immediately to divorce.

God bless.

JJ

I took some time to ponder on this and the bottom line is that until the betrayed spouse "believes" that they deserve better, they will not require it.

I look at the betrayed spouses here - who are struggling to even contemplate Plan B because they have to "do" something that will change their wayward spouse. As if they can find healing if their husbands will just change back into the man (or woman) that was once committed to them. Their healing will not come from his changing at this point though. Each of us have to learn that the rubble around us that our waywards left is now a part of us. Distrust, insecurity, etc. So we must seek healing by discovering our worth. To us. To our children. And to the wayward who is absent. And that's what will give us the strength to require the respect and honor from those around us - that is our wound that must be healed.

In Rain's situation, I think she's looking at the rubble around her and feeling overwhelmed about how much work it would be to rebuild a marriage out of that rubble, so every instinct in her is saying there's a way out. The problem she can't or won't acknowledge is that the rubble goes with her. She thinks she can leave that rubble for her husband to clean up. And her delusion is that her son won't have to clean it up... She hasn't dealt with the gambling. She hasn't dealt with the cheating. Not to a place where she can find peace anywhere she goes.

Sadly, I'm finding she can't hear that insight from betrayed or formerly waywards who have walked through the rubble in their hearts and sought healing for their pain by recognizing they know where it comes from.

Mimi has her Goddess thread to help betrayed women find their inner woman of strength. The one that requires respect and honor. The one that removes herself from being trampled, heart, mind, body and soul, by a self-destructing wayward.

I went through professional coaching 10 years ago. I learned what it meant to "be" rather than "do". Sometimes I forget that. But every time I remember, I also seem to "do" better. But it starts with "being".

I agree with this 100%.

ETA: Except the leaving her H to clean up the rubble. I think she believes if she is gone there will be no rubble. I think this is her attempt to "save" her H from her mess.

At times, I would begin to read a response from her that was full of justifications and disregard for her H and son. As I would continue to read, my anger would rise. I'd be just waiting to finish what she had to say and was all prepared to absolutely blast her.

At the very end she would say "I'm so scared and confused"

And I believe her.

I think she WANTS to but the FEAR is paralyzing her.

ForeverHers, I think you are right. I think this question goes through the mind of both BS and WS. It's a tough call, deciding to take that risk again.

Fox

I didn't mean to not respond, but went up north fishing with my family over the long weekend...

I don't think I can change the thread title FH. I do understand what you are saying and at times even believe. Mostly when I am reading the BS's threads, but when I read something an active completely self serving WS writes, I just have such an adverse reaction.

Tough love comes to mind. Like in if the WS really did care, they would leave the children and take themselves far, far away to an island somewhere, so that the left behind family can find peace and joy again. Or that they should be forced to. Nothing like tough love to change a person's faulty thought processes. As in God takes us to the desert and brings us to our knees so that we might hear. KWIM?

Kayla & Fox, You see beauty and good intentions where I see complete and utter self centeredness. I am having a very hard time believing that a wayward cares enough about anyone except themself.

That's why I suppose if I am going to try to help, I need to read only the BS's stuff.

Don't know how you guys do it, remain supportive. ARGHHH!

I can be supportive after repentence. Mark or Larry (can't remember who) defined repenting as a complete change in thought processes. A change in thinking. I thought that was a profound way of looking at what it means to become repentent.

I can't imagine anything sadder than a repentent wayward who has lost everything, and has only their regrets to keep them company, but sometimes that is what it takes for them to see. To me they are sadder than any left behind BS.

A swift Plan B may help them wake up before it gets to that point though, the point where it is too late.

Please forgive my rambling. LOL I had point somewhere, when I started this.

Yep, I know what you mean and I agree with you.

In the case of rain, I don't see it as SEVERE as some waywards. I don't think she is being purposely MEAN and saying things to her BS to hurt him even further.

To me, the lies, the meanness, the "on purpose" feeling I got from WH is what led to my "doneness". It wasn't the affair itself, it was the meanness and anger and lies that were directed at me ON PURPOSE.

I haven't seen that with rain. She screwed up BIG TIME with the A - but is she being ACTIVELY hateful towards her BS?

If she is not, there is hope.


Oh, the self centeredness is there, definately. Part of my problem, I think, is that I don't want to believe people are that way ON PURPOSE. There is good in everyone, some you just have to dig deeper to find it.



There has to be a BEGINNING to the process of becoming repentant. The first step has to be taken.

I relate many things to horse training because that is a passion of mine.

In THIS case - the horse (sorry, rain) has shifted it's weight in the right direction.

Good enough for me.

Keep asking for a little more each time.

When it's safe - an actual foot may move onto the path.

Those next step after the first few are much easier to take once the trust is gained.

KWIM?

Fox

You are looking at it from the perspective of a wayward's inability to trust enough to commit completely to their marriage? That they feel they are not worthy of love? They are afraid to love as it was meant?

If you look at it from the perspective of love being a verb, and not a feeling, what is there to be afraid of? That they are not capable of love the verb?

There are BS's on here who have taken that stance with their (F)WW's, and I have supported them, and even agreed with them at times.

I wonder if most women are less tolerant of WW's than WH's, I think I am. And I am not liking that about myself lately. I think I expect more from women. Expect them to be stronger than guys.

I think they do not trust themselves enough - because they don't understand how they allowed themselves to have an affair. And what to do so that it does not happen again.

They don't trust that their M can be better. There almost needs to be some CONVINCING done to PROVE to them that it CAN be better if the right actions are taken.


IF you look at it that way, you're right, what is there to be afraid of? Unfortunately, I think MOST people do not see at as a verb - but as a feeling.

The WANTING to do acts of love have to be there and I think some fear that the won't WANT to and will end up right back at the beginning again.

For most people, IMO, there has to be MOTIVATION to do for others. That isn't necessarily "right" but human nature, in general. The motivation for a wayward is nonexistant.

And they can't except love from the BS because they do feel unworthy.

ESPECIALLY the broken ones, taking those steps toward repentance.

They SHOULD feel unworthy, because they ARE unworthy, as an active wayward.

Ok - now I rambled. Hope you got something out of all that.

Fox

Josie -
I don't see good intentions - I see the self-centeredness, believe me. But I see it as a survival attitude from being overwhelmed. It's hard to do the right thing when you see so much rubble that you can't stand the thought of being saddled with it forever. Isn't this what all waywards do?

There's this old moldy mobile home near where my parents live. It's an old rat trap, abandoned on the property it occupies. You might describe it similarly to the life the wayward is trying to escape - what they see is left of the marriage - they don't think about cause here - they just see the rat trap. They neglected the trailer. So they move on. The trouble is, it's THEIR trailer - and it's a part of their soul. And though they live in a fine brand-spankin new house now, there the trailer sits, cluttering the property, creating a fire and rodent hazard that continues to decay. And since they didn't learn how to handle the home they had, the rubble contaminates that brand-spankin new house down the road a bit...

Eventually the owner is going to be faced with finishing the destruction of the trailer, and hauling it off to the trash, or fined by the county and charged for the county hauling it off.

It's only a matter of time before the trailer trash hits the fan for every wayward.

If it were my trailer, I'd be for getting the extreme makeover crew along with the Cat and dump trucks at the ready. I'm sick of driving past it every time I go visit my parents.

But it's not my marriage. It's not my trailer. The ones who did the damage have to do the fixing. Rain's getting ready to get the crow-bar and hammer out. But she's not doing it for the marriage yet. She's doing it because finally the fog has lifted enough for her to recognize this aint going away by changing geography...

Eventually the good can be uncovered in a wayward who's cleaning up their mess. Regardless of the reason, I'm relieved she's started the process.

Yeah, what Kayla said. Thanks, Kayla.

Fox

Right. No matter where or how far you go, there you are.

Great analogy, Kayla.

Thanks you guys, for helping me to understand why you are bothering.

I just read through what I wrote and realized here's the biggest descriptor of the difference between the recovering betrayed/wayward and the active wayward POV on the trailer heap:

The active wayward sees the marriage as the rubble.

The recovering betrayed sees the active wayward's heart and mind as the rubble.

Neither the recovering betrayed nor the actively wayward can deal with the rubble.

Only a recovering wayward can deal with the rubble. One shovel scoop at a time.

This is basically what PWC said to me over and over again; that he did not WANT to do for me, that he did not FEEL it. He was waiting for the feeling to come, or his EPIPHANY, as he called it.

I feel like crying, for I finally see how many of you lovely people know exactly what I was dealing with. My problem was I kept allowing my WH to rent space for his trailor, instead of telling him he had to find a plan to get rid of it, for I would not have our land sullied with it. Alas, we are married, so he felt it perfectly within his rights to park that trash heap and leave it. I also kept trying to go at HIS trash heap with a shovel; I'd toil all day in the hot sun, only to find that I didn't even make a dent. I tried handing the shovel to him, but he wasn't having that.

Oy, great stuff ladies.