N2F,

I also didn't mean to T/J...sorry to SNM if I did. Although your reply to me should be very useful to SNM as well.

Maybe you are correct in that I didn't look into what Dr. Harley said in that chapter close enough. I guess when I got to that point in the book I was expecting some sort of magic word (or potion) to jump out and make it all better for me...not gonna happen lol.

Guess I'll be reading that chapter agin when I get home tonight.

Thanks

TTH...

Go read my story on my thread.....it is very easy to get caught up in the resentment and past, but look at ILMH actions today....

Don't worry about my lack of sleep. I used it to fill an EN...

not2fun

Yep, I think that what we all would like that, but no, its not gonna happen......ok...I'm done T/J here. I would talk more to ya on this, but you don't seem to have a MAIN thread....(this is why you should stick to one....keep your updates and progress on that one.... ;))...

not2fun

I have one in "recovery" now. Updated daily.

Thanks to everyone! Your insight and input is simply amazing.

You may be a lousy golfer but you are a good detective - and quite insightful.

Yes, I would have married her if I had known the information. My problem is not that she had an abortion or what she hid from me. My problem is that she lied to me about things to cover for what she did not want to tell.

And yes, as some have suggested some if it is some sort of embarrasment. But - I blieve it is valid.

There were things she could not tell me about. I married her with that knowledge. That was stupid but I did it. Later I told her that if we were ever around the people that she had been intimate with I wanted to know. (We have occasion to be around some of the people from her past occasionally) I just told her that if they were there I wanted to know it.

For me it is like this. If we are there with guys who she has had sex with - and they know things that can't be shared with me - I at least want to know they are there.

So, on the night of the reunion - there was about a 20 minute healing party. I mean my wife had not spoken to the guy that got her pregnant since she told him she was - and then she aborted.

Her best friend and her friends husband were aware of the situation and were there. My wife knew this had caused some sort of issue in the guys marriage. So she was hoping this could be some sort of healing between my wife, the guy and his wife. So there they were, introducing him to me as some guy she used to run around with some (I feel like she covered for him and made an a hole out of me in that. The guy is thinking, yea I've had your wife - and you don't even know it).

And my wife and four other people know what all the history was - just not me. I felt like when she did that - she flipped me off in his presence. Everyone knew what was up but me.

INtroducing the guy like they were just pals - when in reality he had sex with her and got her pregnant. That ticks me Royally - can anyone tell me why?

So - my resentment is that she lied about the past and then rubbed my nose in it in a way I had, asked her to never do to me.

BTW, she does not remember me asking her to never let that happen. Which also angers me.

Also, after we began to deal with it, she just could not figure out why I would want to know, why it would even matter to me. She said (as some here seem to be suggesting) that it must just be my pride.

Maybe so. But it pisses me off that some other guy who supposedly means nothing to her - can know things about her that I cannot - and then she protects their secret at my expense, publically.

I know resentment knaws. I just don't know what to do with it.

Also, realated: I told her that I don't believe she appreciates the fact that she is the only one I have ever been with physically (which probably is a huge part of this). I asked her to tell me what that meant to her and she said, "i will have to think about it."

sowhat, resentment is a normal, healthy reaction to mistreatment. Your emotions are signalling that there is something wrong, and that is very healthy.

But what is also healthy is giving her an opportunity to change the dynamics of the marriage by being HONEST about her past. That will help you overcome resentment. She should have no more secrets with ANYONE to which you are not privy. That is how the special BOND OF TRUST is built between married people.

Have you read about Radical Honesty? http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3900_honesty.html

Dishonesty is a LOVEBUSTER: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3405_dishonesty.html

Yea, "I don't remember"... That's a good one.

It's called gaslighting, and it's not nice.

My wife told me a similar secret several years after we were married. I was told in private and never had any embarassment about it.

But my reaction was rather different then yours. I know that I can sometimes, or often I should say, be very judgemental. I don't mean to put others down, but I do. In reality it's just a defense mechinism. I know in the past, I've made women I date feel like it wasn't safe to tell me things they thought I would not like.

So when my wife told me her secret, I felt horrible for creating an environment where she could not feel comfortable telling me everything. I also felt guilty for saying that a particular behavior was wrong in front of her, making her feel like less of a person. So yes, she should have told me, but I created the environment that made it difficult to speak.

As well, I'm no angel, and passing judgement on her past is rather hypocritical of me.

I don't know if anyone else agrees with this, but I know I don't individuality dies when you get married. You still have your own thoughts, feelings, and opinions, and your spouse doesn't need to be 100% inline with you all the time. And you also need to accept your spouse for who they are, unconditionally. Doesn't mean you need to let them hurt you, but just because they aren't all that you dreamed they would be doesn't give you the right to jump ship.

I know the lying hurts, but I wonder what your spouse feels. She obviously didn't want to tell you because she knew you wouldn't approve, and think less of her. It's not an excuse, but a good reason IMO. From her point of view, it's a mistake but her feelings were honest. I don't think she wanted to make a fool of you, she just didn't want to risk losing you. As well, abortions are not easy, and perhaps she still is hurting emotionally from the experience.

And as for telling her that you saved yourself for her, I seriously doubt she appreciated the comment one bit. I don't know her, but perhaps she feelings like you're telling her that you're better then her because you didn't sleep around and she did. Maybe you did do it for her, but that doesn't mean she has to appreciate it if it really doesn't mean that much to her. Maybe it just makes her feel that she can't meet your standards because the past is always there.

I know how you feel. My W told me that she too had an abortion. Only to tell me 6 years later (during her affair with OM) that she actually had 2 abortions when she was younger, not just one...kind of a big detail one would think.

But, although I agree that your W didn't handle the situation properly...I don't really think that it would have been appropriate for her to introduce you to him like "hi ____, this is my H...sowhatnow...H, this ____...the guy I got pregnant with and we then had an abortion".

She probably could have taken the time to pull you aside to let you know that he was present, but I don't really see how she "rubbed your nose in it" on this one. Imagine how you would have been feeling if she did introduce you to him the way that I described.

Melodylane, thanks for the great insight. You do understand me very well.

And you know what - understanding is another thing I believe is at the root of this stuff. I want herto understand why this matters to me. I want her to understand why it hurts (and it's not just my wounded pride). Or even if it is pride - I don't want to be treated like trash by the one that is supposed to love me so much. I want her to feel in her heart - my feelings.

But I think I am at least partially ticked that - I don't think she can feel it.

So far as no secrets?.... I don't believe I will ever feel like there are no secrets. How do I know what is true? I know she will lie to cover for herself. She lied a long time ago and she lied in the recent past about it. I don't think you just make a New Years resolution and become someone that does not lie anymore.





snm, the way to recover from the betrayal is for her to practice complete honesty. Historical honesty, current honesty, etc. That is how I overcame my resentment. When there were NO SECRETS between us anymore, I grew to trust him.

Introvert - please give me some credit. I don't think she should have introduced him the way you described either. However, she knew the meeting was coming - so either she could have told me - or she should have made sure the meeting did not happen.


As it was - 5 people knew there was a very big event taking place when these two met. But not me. Not the guy that she supposedly loves more than anyone else.

BTW - I don't believe I created a situation that made it impossible for her to tell what she had done. I AM NOT GOING TO CARRY THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS. I loved her and accepted her and her past - I even accepted that she would not tell me something that was too big for her to talk about.

But in return - I just asked for some consideration and asked for her to protect me from one very simple thing.

Melvin, I don't think we are communicating on this - and I doubt it is possible.

I think (especially now through the crap I have been through) that giving oneself completely to just one person is an incredible gift. How great it would be to know that your spouse cannot compare you to anyone in the past. How amazing to know that yours is the only body they have ever experienced.

I think that is an incredible gift.
You think I am being awful for thinking that.
One of us is from Mars, One of is is from somewher else - we just don't relate to each other.

Melodylane, Lousygolfer, - can you all take me any further?

I appreciate your thoughtful concern this far.

I'm not trying to be humorous, but what precisely are you resentful about? I can't tell from your posts whether you are upset about the facts of her past, that she witheld the facts, that she didn't follow your instructions about how to handle it, that she didn't tell you she wasn't going to follow your instructions, that you feel she made you look like a fool, or that you feel she doesn't really care about any of this.

There are parts in their that I would say "yeah, I can see why you feel some resentment." But there are others that I can't, and still others that I would say you don't have enough information.

I only ask this because I think the answer on how to heal is slightly different for each one of those things. The answers range from "well, you just have to accept it" to you should probably express these feelings to your wife and request that she do something.

The tricky part is if you aren't clear or skillful in this, nothing is probably going to happen. As an example, if you resent that she has a past, I would probably say well, you just have to accept that cause her past is her past. You can decide you can't accept it and get a divorce or you can just maturely accept it. If you resent that she didn't follow your instructions, then I would say you are going to have to talk to her about it. Get clarity on why she did that. Did she not understand what you wanted, did she over rule you, did she just set out to hurt you. Answers to any of those will eventually lead you to heal because when you chase this down it will either fall in the camp of just accept it or request she do something. If its the latter, she either delivers on what she committed to or she doesn't. If she doesn't then you are back to just accepting it or moving on.

Finally, being clear on this means throwing out the things she can't do anything about and specifying what you would like her to do about the things she can do something about. If when you discuss this you constantly hammer out your displeasure about her past, she is going to shut down. She knows she can't change this. If when you discuss this, you leave it open ended on what you would like, she is also probably going to shut down. If she thinks nothing she can do will help, then she won't try anything.

Anyway, my point was it typically helps to get to the core of things, get realistic on the drivers and then discuss what your spouse can do about it.

rprynne, thanks for your thoughtful consideration of my stuff. I will try to think through the answers.

The facts of her past are not really the issue - except for the facts that she lied about.

I am upset that she did not do what I had requested. She said there was something in the past that she just did not want to tell me about. I did not force her to tell me. However, I did ask that she tell me if we were ever in the presence of those who were involved with her intimately (we had occassion to be around people from her past from time to time.) I felt like that was fair. If she could not tell me - at least let me know if I am ever around them.

Well - she did precisely what I asked her not to do - and says that she does not remember me talking about it. And that may well be the trigger for me. I do not believe she is in the habit of considering me or really listeneing to me.

edited to add: You know what? Maybe I don't know what the core of this is, and maybe that is the problem.
I asked her to do one thing for me. She did not care enough to think about it or even remember it. I want to matter more than that to her.

This mattered to me. I wanted to feel like she cared enough to listen, think about it and show her love by remembering and honoring my request. Instead she says she does not even remember the conversation, thus - she did not know what she did would even matter to me.

Does this help?

SNM:

Mel said it best. It's the dishonesty of it all.

And you were embarrassed, and she did rub your nose in it.

She knew the reunion was coming.
She had every reason to believe that ex-BF would be there.
She remembered that she hadn't told you the "full story"
She remembered that she was supposed to show you consideration.
She had AMPLE opportunity to explain that someone could be there that COULD be an issue.

BUT SHE DIDN'T.

This wasn't like you two were at dinner at your local restaurant and suddenly ExBF was there with his W and how ackward that was...

No, she had full knowledge. Full awareness.

And SHE JUST DIDN'T CARE.

Not enough to start a conversation beforehand. Not enough to tell you that ExBF, if he was there, that she would do "xxx" to avoid him.

That's why you need to go over the Sexual History Questionaire. Theres are NO RIGHT answers. THere is only the truth. She can tell you names, dates and times, and give you some idea about what happened. Yes. YOu are two differnet people, and this happened before you two got married, but it is STILL affecting your M 7 years in. It will affect it until the day you die, if she isn't being forthcoming.

Will it be painful for her to reveal her past? Yes. But look at the pain that happened from NOT REVEALING it.

Had YOU been in the loop, then the meeting at the reunion would have been... well? Ho-Hum. This guy may have had your W in the past, but it wasn't a secret anymore. As it was, He's winking at your W and you are cut out.

Now, I could have a small discussion with you about making it "safe" for your W to discuss with you anything that is on her mind, in her past, wahtever. Radical Honesty is like that. She might have some weird thoughts, and want to avoid some embarrassment, but she has to feel "safe" telling you something that she doesn't feel "safe" telling you now.

That is the quickest way to leave resentment land. You can state your thoughts and ideas, and so can she. And you respect each other after.

LG

I understand what you are saying.

I'm not trying to argue semantics here, but I'm not so sure what you are dealing with is resentment. What I mean is that resentment is usually the anger someone feels over a real or percieved injury. And for most, I would say the path to healing is you tell the person they hurt you, they apologize, you forgive, they promise not to do it again, they make good on that promise and you are healed. I realize that this is easier said than done and some injuries are so severe that this is insufficient.

But some of what you describe sounds less like an "injury", eventhough painful, and more of a "further evidence" supporting a belief you have that she does not care for you. That isn't something you really "heal" from. Its something that you test out (i.e. does she really not care) and then try to solve (i.e. incorporating MB tools, etc into your M, assuming she does care).

I don't know. Maybe it is some of both.

lousygolfer - you DO understand me and my feelings. With or without any resolution that has value to me.

We have done the sexual history. However, it too revealed some changed information from what she had given me in the past. And maybe this also is part of it - it just leaves me wondering what is true.

Because I cannot find peace - I have already pushed her to a bad spot. She does not like me not believing her, nor does she like still having to relive the past. I understand.

I have let this go for months and months and never say a word. But when i do bring it up it is because I do not want to have the feelings that I have way down deep towards her. I want to be able to love without the ill feelings - whether it is resentment or something else, it grows there like a cancer.

rprynne,
go ahead and argue symantics - clarity is a good thing! I am using the word resentment because I cannot/have not let go of the idea that she did what she did to me. She did not consider me, in things that matter a great deal to me- and I resent it. She kept her secret with him and everyone else but me (which I interpret as flipping me off with everyone watching - only I did not know it- that is why I call it resentment)

And it would possibly be helpful for you to know that the way I found out about what she did and everything was that one day I sat her down and just said, "I just don't feel that you love me the way I wish that you did." And for some reason, she said, "There is something I need to tell you." And from there she revealed the thing she did at the reunion and the stuff from the past.

Why did she reveal that then? Heck if I know. Got any clues?

As far as the promising not to do it again and moving on.... Maybe my issue is that she does not THINK about a lot of things. That is an acceptable way of life to her way of thinking. It is how she is though, and I do not believe she can, even by her will, be any different. There is some ADD mixed into her makeup - if I want her to understand something, I must think about it and try 100 ways to explain it - because she is not going to figure it out left to herself.

I like the advice on testing out her love. If I could focus on that - rather than hanging it all on something that she did in the past. That might have some power for me. You may just be on to something here.

Just to be clear, I don't mean anything radical. I just mean having the conversation. The "test" part I mean is that often times we tend to intrepret people's actions based on our own paradigms. Sometimes this can be misleading and we have to seek clarity.

For a simple example, one way my wife expresses her care for me is by cooking and keeping the house clean. But that is not really important to me. I tend to prefer she express her care through spending time with me. So when she doesn't spend time with me, I generally feel like she doesn't care. But if I test that with her, she will respond with she does care, how can I think she doesn't since she spends all that time keeping the house picked up. Solving that is me telling her thanks for the house cleaning, but what I really prefer is for her to spend more time with me, etc.


Who knows. Did you ask her?


I'd be careful thinking this way. I used to think my wife didn't get things and me explaining it to her several times just made things worse.

May I ask what else have you read on this site. There is much here that can help.