I am ready for plan B. I have counseled with Jennifer-- and she recommended that I fool-proof my plan A, then go plan B if nothing had changed before about now.

Nothing's changed.

You can read my previous threads to get an idea of what is going on in my M-- and at the end of this I'll tell you the straw that broke the camel's back and led me to believe that Plan B is in order. How do I know I need plan B? I don't even care anymore-- I'm actually growing to hate him, and have little respect for the person he's been for the past few months and the person he's become. Right now, I just want PEACE and it seems that that just isn't possible with him in my life because he's constantly turning things upside down.

As a short synopsis:

H worked out of town for the first 2 years of our marriage. Hardly ever called home, was emotionally unavailable, distant, frequent AOs. He admits to two EAs after the fact during this time period. My gut tells me from how he reacts when these EAs are talked about that this is a lie, that there is more to this story. I have no way of uncovering what more there is though-- he was in so many different towns, saw so many different people. I firmly believe that something physical happened, just from the way that he acts when these were first brought up, and also when I ask about them in the recent past. H has also had problems with lying... I think he's one of those people that lying comes very naturally to, so much so that he has trouble telling the difference between a lie and the truth. I have caught him in COUNTLESS lies over the years about both large and small things.

OK, so that is one large DJ on H. My issues? I was a nag. On top of that, I am a yeller. I WAS a yeller. I have worked long and hard on stopping my reaction to fly off the handle, and dammit, I've done really well. Really well. I'm super proud of myself. I wasn't the world's best wife either in those two years. Then I met someone at work... he listened to me, blah blah blah all that stupid [censored] that all dumb*ss WW say. He was a scum bag, in hindsight! But, yeah, EA ensues. Then, a PA-- 2 years ago this week. We never actually had sex (of any kind), but were physical together. I tell H 3 days afterwards, after being racked with guilt.

H is devastated, wants to work things out. I am confused, and stupid like all WW. I end up moving out in October to "get room to think". I actually continue the EA part, but not the PA part. We had mutual friends, and continued to be WAY WAY WAY too close for comfort, but the PA portion had stopped. I honestly think THIS was how I justified it in my stupid, stupid WW brain.

Before I moved out of the house, I caught H perusing online dating sites. Shortly after I moved out, even though he was "fighting for our M" he had a revenge A. It was just an EA-- but he took her out on dates, sent her $70 flowers, had a nick name for her... met her family, called her every day, etc. I believe the only reason it didn't get physical was because she lived 3K miles away, and that makes the PA part a little hard But he did fly out to see her once-- and lied to me about where he was going, and told her he was divorced and moving out there to live with her.

I found out about all of this in December-- and that just through me through a loop. I had been going home frequently to spend nights at home and stuff, and had talked about moving home a lot, but was still being stupid and selfish. Well THAT gave me a good reason (in my head) to stay out of the house longer. He broke it off with her immediately, but not before sticking up for her and saying the typical WS things-- how great she was... blah blah blah (although he had lied to her too, she thought he was divorced and was a little surprised to talk to me and find out he wasn't... and was still trying to "work on his M")

I moved back home in late June of 07. Things were REALLY rocky. First off, I couldn't get OM to STOP contacting me. He knew darned well that his continual contact was driving a wedge between us-- and he liked that. He would send me "group" texts... that he'd send to a group of people, including me, so it didn't look like he was sending it to just me. But H would freak, of course, understandable! So, I changed my phone number at the end of the summer. No more cell contact, great! The last time I saw or heard from OM was actually February of 2008. After not hearing from him for a good 6 months or so, I got a 7 page MANIFESTO love letter from him in my email account. H found it. I had given him all of my passwords in order for transparency (he has not followed suit, and refuses to). That set us back quite a bit, although I used the opportunity to send a proper NC letter since I hadn't sent one earlier bc I hadn't found this site at the time when I broke off our EA. I threatened RO in the NC letter. Haven't heard from or seen him since. He now works for another company (started for them at the end of the summer 2007, right about when I moved home)

In November 2007, H took another woman out for lunch, and then proceed to trade flirty emails with her for the week afterwards. I broke into his email account to see the emails (although to this day, he thinks that she forwarded them to a friend who forwarded them to me, he doesn't know I looked in his account...). I was livid, he justified, justified justified.

Fast forward.... H pretty much walks all over me. I have been plan A'ing now solidly since November, when I found this site. I was actually on another site, and someone guided me here. I was going to move out of the house again in November because I couldn't' take how mean H was to me all the time. He wasn't committing to the R, and would give me the ILYBINILWY, etc....

So, I plan A'd. I got advice from Jennifer...I rocked plan A. I am actually really proud of myself. I really am! I have become a solid, strong, moral-full person that is trying my best to make up for my mistakes.

H is not on the boat. One year later, he is all for recovery... when it benefits him. When its not... he bails and shoves the A in my face as an excuse to do whatever he wants. (like tonight). My guilt has kept me here, for a year. I've sacrificed everything for this M. I made a grave mistake, but I know that I'm not the only one that's made mistakes. And I know that to fix the M will take both of us. I've been meeting his ENs... My taker has been locked in a dungeon. I don't even REMEMBER the last time my ENs were really met, well. My giver is, well, about to give out.

I planned a beautiful vacation for us for our anniversary this year-- we just got back a week ago. It was wonderful, HE was wonderful. He sent me an e-card for our anniversary that says he was "back where he needed to be" and that "he would still make the decision to marry me again". He promised a paper card when we got home, but I never got it. He also never got me a present, despite the fact that I got him several. That hurt.

I know that this board tends to bash WS. That's why I don't post that frequently. And, quite frankly, I've gotten such conflicting advice in the past that Jennifer advised me that I stick with ONE plan (hers) rather than get 2563565 different opinions.

But I come here now because my next appt with Jennifer isn't for awhile. And because I probably (alone) cannot afford the appts anymore. I make 1/4 of what H does. I need to start saving up for plan B.

So here's the straw that broke the camel's back tonight:

H is in a wedding tomorrow (Saturday). Today (Friday), he took the day off of work and went golfing with his buddies that were in the wedding, then they had the rehearsal and dinner afterwards. I met up with them for the dinner part, after work. I come to find out while I'm there that all the groomsmen are planning on staying at the groom's house overnight. Well, the wedding isn't until 4 pm on Saturday, so its not like it is really necessary for him to stay the night at the groom's house (which isn't far from ours), and I'm not particularly happy about it because he's going to be away a lot coming up here (for the next 2 months straight, at least-- he's going to be traveling again)-- and that means I wouldn't get to see him tonight or tomorrow until like 7 or 8 (since he's in the wedding he'll have to do wedding party stuff). He tells me "we'll talk about it" when we get home, but he continues telling everyone there that he'll be over that night, so I know his mind is already made up and there's nothing really to "talk" about.

So, I debate ALL during dinner to tell him to "just go" or to tell him how I really feel about it, respectfully.

So, we get home, and he asks me "do I have a problem with him going". I swear to you, I was EXTRA EXTRA EXTRA careful about how I worded things, how I said it-- Jennifer has made me practice how I word things because eliminating DJ was a huge thing for me and a big LB. I said to him, "no, I don't have a problem with it, but I'm not happy about it" (very calmly, I swear, no attitude at all). Then I explained (very, very calmly) that our next few weekends are jam packed with separate activities, and that with him going out of town in the recent future, I'd like it if he stayed her. Especially since it wasn't "necessary" but he just "wanted" to- they have nothing to do in the morning and don't have to be at the church until 2:30.

So, he immediately shuts down and gets mad at me-- this is his usual MO when I express something that is making me unhappy because of him. Then starts justfiying him going- of course with the old stand by-- "well you.... (did this that or the other thing 2 years ago which means he's entitled to this-- he does that a lot... anytime he wants to do something I don't like, he justifies it with my A). I explained to him that it was how I felt... he went on and on about how this week has been hard for him... (this is 2 years from D-day).

I did get a little emotional, I cried a little, but I didn't let myself become my normal disaster-- I had a habit in the past of doing the crying/pleading/begging/pathetic thing. He was really worked up and in his full blown justification mode- very angry and yelling at me, even though I never ONCE raised my voice or said even a DJ. All just explaining how I felt, that was ALL.

So, I just calmly told him it was his decision that I told him how I felt about it. And I said to let me know what he decided and that I was going to go upstairs to read a book. He came in a few minutes later and said to me that he was going "at least for a little" (ie- he's not coming back, I'm not that dumb...).

So, he proceeds to get angry, justify, justify justify, and then storm out the door and leave me here. I explained to him that I expected him to go, but that it bothers me that I feel like I can't express anything that bothers me or that I don't like because he just gets mad at me and I feel like my feelings are invalidated. His response was "well how do you think I felt" (ie-- again justifying things with my A). Grrr... that makes me so angry. That is his response to EVERYTHING anymore. He uses my A as a license to get away with whatever he wants. This is not the first time he's pulled stuff like this-- in fact, it happens fairly frequently.

So, he leaves in a huff. I went to get coffee with a friend, I needed to calm down.

As I'm leaving to go to coffee, I get a text from him that says "have a good night. luv". WTF???

I don't respond.

A few minutes later I get a text that says "guess you aren't talking to me or are out. Fair enough. nite." (he's egging me on...)

So, I respond and just say "have a good night, love you" (that's it).

An hour later I send a text that just says "if you feel like coming back you are more than welcome and id like that".

He sends back "we'll see" (ie, he's [censored] with me, and no, he's not going to).

I don't respond, again. I hate that he knows what buttons to push....

Then I get these two, which I haven't responded to:

First: "I'm just a train wreck... I don't even know where I'm going these days"

and Second: "just not feelin it. these past few days have brought up such pain and vivid memories. i dunno how much longer i can do this" (ie, his justification for being an [censored] tonight...).

WTF?!

I haven't responded. I would be S-H-O-C-K-E-D if he actually came back tonight.

So, now I'm debating if I should even GO to the wedding. I am waiting to see how he acts tomorrow morning.

What upset me the most about tonight is that my feelings were not at all acknowledged, in fact he only got ANGRY at me for feeling a particular way (which was not the way that he wanted me to feel). And that isn't fair. I have a right to my feelings and I have a right to express them. I would have been fine if he would have LISTENED to me, and then maybe stayed for awhile and watched TV with me, and been affectionate and then left for the night and called me first thing in the morning. But that isn't what happened. The second he "didn't like" what came out of my mouth (and not because it was DJ or because the way I said it... just because it wasn't conducive to him doing what he wanted)... he got angry and invalidated my feelings.

And, I've in the past "shut up" and let him do his thing, even though I wasn't happy about it. So that's not what this is about. There's been plenty of instances in the past where things like this come up, and I lie and "pretend" I'm OK with it, and hide my true feelings, because if I say I'm not happy about it, he gets mad. Every time. I can't be unhappy about something, ever-- it just causes an argument and the original problem doesn't get fixed anyways. I lose either way!

So, I'm thinking plan B now. But plan B might be hard because he's going to be out of town a lot here coming up-- which sort of throws a snafu in plan B.

He's being melodramatic and I know right now responding to him is only going to make things worse. So I'm not. But I'm really worked up right now.

I need this plan B letter air tight. I'm thinking I'm going to need it here shortly. Jennifer said give him a few weeks after the vacation. I was thinking we had turned a corner. Apparently not.

Let me also make a prediction for tomorrow night:

I don't hear from him until the wedding. Maybe a text message in the morning. Maybe. At the wedding, he apologizes, as if he just stepped on my toe and it was no big deal, and then justifies what he did with "well, all of this has been bothering me so much recently"-- so apparently that makes it OK for him to just run off and do whatever he wants and be selfish. And then act like nothing happened. This is a typical MO. This same theme has repeated OVER AND OVER AND OVER again for the past year.

He's only on board with this recovery stuff when it suits him. When he'd rather go out drinking with his buddies, well then the recovery goes by the wayside, he shoves the A in my face to justify doing whatever he wants, which is usually pretty selfish.

Rinse, repeat.

Plan B, here I come....

2:15 in the morning, and I'm not the least bit tired... he's got me so worked up. I really just want to strangle him right now. Honestly, I have an urge to just deck him. I really do. Its getting to the point where I'm sick of his games. It was just a week ago that he was saying that he would make the same decision 3 years ago. He says one thing and does another. I'm tired of it. You're in or you're out. And not sometimes one way or the other, depending on how you feel and what you want that day.

I guess at this point, I realize I was the WS. I was also a BS. This situation is screwed up. I gave it one year of full on effort. I am proud of my plan A. But HIS attitude hasn't change, therefore the M can't move forward, can't recover anymore until he COMMITS to recovery, and not just when it's convenient. I don't have any steam left. He blames his entire A on me-- all three of them. Nothing is his fault, he has nothing to fix. Refuses MC, won't work on M with me. What else is a WS to do?! At some point, he's gotta decide. He's either in or out. If he's out, that's his choice, but stringing me along and making me walk on eggshells isn't right either. I feel used and like a doormat anymore. I've been through this for a year! It isn't like I'm giving up early. I've been at this for a year. I just don't know what else I can even do. I really don't. That's why I think its time for plan B. I have no clue what else I could even do to save my M, I just know that I can't keep living like this...

Help. I have a draft of a plan B letter....

E.

I'm here, but fading so fast.

Post your PBL and let's have a look at it. I will come back tomorrow morning and read the entire post. I'm sorry you are hurting tonight.

E

Im sorry I do not have anything to say. I have not done Plan A or Plan B before. When I was the WS we didnt find marriage builders. But I forced my way back into DH life. I started posting off and on when DH became a WS in my eyes at some exposure on a RA and his porn addiction. We never followed the plans but instead went to the EN and POJA. I hope the vets have some insight to help you.

I think that you two didn't really get the healing/fixing you needed before reconciling. I think a Plan B is the ONLY way you will ever get a marriage worth saving; cos you sure can't survive in this one! I would make part of your PBL that the two of you go to extensive MC for at least 6 months, and he go to IC for the same amount. Many people think they won't get anything out of IC, but once they're in there, they start seeing what a great tool it is for figuring out their life.

He sounds somewhat sincere, but I think his coping skills from childhood need to be addressed, such as shutting down or going into 'me' mode when he hears anything he doesn't like. And that will take a LOT of work.

Do you have your letter ready?

eeyoree,

imvho,I think Plan b would be nothing but a disater for your M. You and your H haven't really done any real C together to get to the bottom of this double betrayal.

He throws your A in your face as a way to manipulate you into doing as he pleases. This shows zero effort to R and begin to heal your M. OTOH, it would seem that you are not responding in kind to his A's.

Let me talk in anology if you would allow me.
I am an alcoholic, but realized young into our M how devastating and destrutive that became to my W and family. So I soberred up.
I began a journey of sobriety and did not touch a drop of alcohol for 16 years prior to dday. Through weddings, parties, funerals and whatever, I refrained. It was good, really good.

On Dday, I broke out and went on a tear that lasted years. When my W objected, I would just glare at her for a minute, and she knew what I was saying, without actually saying a word. She would occasionally say, " I know I did this to you, but if you can you must stop."

Truth is, she didn't, I just regressed to who I was instead of who I could be. It suited me and served a double purpose of punishing her at the same time. I got to wallow in my addiction and blame it all on her A, without uttering a word. It didn't last however, as that destructive behavior never will.

Your H is using your guilt to act out and be somehow independant of your M. This will not work either, and will ultimately, if not changed, destroy any chance of real R.

Your H needs to C with Jennifer as well, and then and only then, will the two of you begin to communicate and enthusiastly follow the Policy of Joint Agreement.(POJA)

This will be imperitive to the survival of your M. Plan B at this point, without C from Jen, will simply drive a wedge further into your M and your H's justification attitude. It would be like throwing gasolene on the fire.

Plan B is after all, a last ditch effort to break up an A, and it only works, about 5% of the time. You're not ready for that yet IMO, but if Jen says you are, then go with her.

Your goal is to bring your H on board into marital R, not drive him away further and feed his unjustified attitude. I do hope you reconsider this, and certainly not undertake this without full counsel from Jen.

I wish you all sucess

all blessings,
Jerry

Thank you everyone for the kind responses.

I do believe that H uses my A to manipulate me and "get what he wants". I read an article on this site about people using the A as a lisence to do whatever they want in the future and hold the guilt over the BS's head. A year later, I think this is what is happening. At first when this happened, I let it happen. When I came home, I expect it to be rocky, and I felt guilty, very, very guilty. I let him do this to me- I felt it was my "punishment". But now I am losing love for my H, I don't respect this person he's become. And I especially hate that somehow all of his A's and all of his mistakes are all my fault.

Jerry-- after your W's A, and your subsequent break-down... what made you "snap out of it"? I guess I am at the point where I just don't know what else to do but plan B. I just don't see this changing, and I'm not saying this to be conceited, but I really can't think of anything I can do better. Its been a year. Not a perfect year of plan A... I've slipped up here and there, but I think everyone does in this situation. But the past month has been Plan A extrodinarie. I thought we were getting somewhere.... but here we go again. I can't keep going through the disappointment of thinking we are getting somewhere, and then having the rug pulled out from under me. He has a right to be upset and angry-- I accept that. But what he doesn't have a right to do is to deal with it however he sees fit-- which happens to be very detrimental to the M and also to me. He goes into 'taker' mode. And I walk on eggshells constantly because if I don't do what he wants and revolve my life around him anymore, he gets angry-- and throws the A in my face to get me "back in line". And I admit, I did it, for a few months after I came back. I thought it was the right thing to do, to prove I would do anything to fix the M. But it seems its come to bite me in the @ss because now that is what he EXPECTS all the time, or he gets mad.

Last night after the texts, he ended up coming home at 3 am. He didn't say a word and just crawled into bed. I didn't say anything either. I could tell he had been drinking at his buddies and knew it'd be fruitless to try to talk to him.

This morning, he got up and got ready for the wedding, hardly said anything to me. I was pleasant, but distant. I tried to give him a kiss before he left, and he pulled away.

I am going to the wedding myself have have to get ready in a few (I'm not in the wedding, so I'm just meeting them at the church).

I am going to add a few more things to my plan B letter and post it here-- its pretty much done, but I need to add in the parts about counseling. For right now, I'm still in plan A. I'm waiting to see how he reacts to all of this-- namely, if he accepts responsibility for it, or just blames it on me again.

If you think plan B would be a disaster-- what do you suggest? I've been working on boundaries and consequences-- but that hasn't gone so well. Schoolbus has helped me a few times with talking to him and how I speak to him (as well as Jennifer, extensively). Honestly, it hasn't helped that much. It seems he defies all "logical" ways that people react. We've worked on not yelling, no DJ's-- because then if he does that, he's supposed to feel bad, because there was no reason for it and I didn't provoke him. Problem is-- his "excuse" for it is things that happened 2 years ago. So therefore he's entitled to go off on me NOW. Never mind the fact that he's had As too, and that there's been NO attempt on his part to even recognize that it was a mistake. They were just my fault. I'm so tired of everything being my fault and him thinking he's this perfect innocent victim.

Jennifer said after the vacay and a few weeks of plan A, if he's not on board, go plan B. We have another short family vacation planned in a few weeks to the shore (driving distance). I don't know if I should try to tough it out until then. I am only once a month counseling with Jennifer now because I can't afford more-- I need to build myself a cushion incase my M implodes. I make 1/4 of what H does and am going to be financially in trouble trying to pay bills.

It just seems he always has an excuse.... there's always a reason why what he's doing is OK, but if I don't revolve my life around him, he has a fit and goes into taker mode.

I guess I struggle with boundaries and consequences too. So what he did last night, crossed a boundary of mine. But what do I do about it?? Especially since he doesn't seem to care much if I distance myself, etc. I don't respond to his melodrama... but still....

Suggestions? Other than Plan B? I'll get my letter up by tomorrow...

E.

E.,

You know I have followed your story from the beginning. I have been silent for months now. I left the boards because things are going very well for me. I wish they were going equally well for you as yours was one of the stories that made an impact on me during my trial.

I came back recently to see how things were going and am sad to see how things are for you. I think Jen is right. I can't use the word that describes your H, but either he must change or you must part. Logically that is the only outcome. Go to plan B. You have done all you can. Hopefully this will rouse him from the dark hole he is in. If not, hopefully you can go on to a more peaceful existence.

SBS

Hi eeyoree,

I agree with SBS. Your love bank is totally drained, in the RED with flashing lights and sparks and smoking.

In your post above you said, "I can't live like this anymore."

That really struck me. I remember saying those exact words and it wasn't long after that that people here at MB helped me do what needed to be done or I would have had a nervous breakdown.

Of that there is no doubt.

Best to you, eeyoree,

EEYOREE,
Hers's a quote from Dr H that I think sums up everthing going on in your M right now. See if this seems to fit:


I think you need to make this very clear to your H, that you are not about to continue to live in this manor. As you have said, he is either in or out, or you will be forced to make your own determinattion as to whether you're in or out. This needs to be communicated in a very clear yet, unwavering way. Boundaries!!

Boundaries are nothing more than hopeful thinking if there is to be no consequence for their vioaltion. So, before you set a boundary, you must also be very clear what the consequence will be if not respected.

As for Plan b, it may be necessary but, you really need to think about that carefully before you do so. Jen can help you with that but it takes extreme planning concerning who will move out and how. Finances are also a major consideration. I wouldn't attempt a Plan b unless you had consulted with a lawyer and drawn up a LSA first to protect yourself. remember, if you leave the courts will also consider that abandonement without cause (ie,no physical abuse). I could be wrong, but I would run it be a lawyer first. If Jen says yes, then go with it but do so as an expert in Plan b, not haphazardly.

As for me snapping out of it, my w's tears began to once again melt my heart. Also, the mirror became my best friend.

All Blessings,
Jerry

Again, thank you for the replies everyone.

I just got home from the wedding we attended tonight.

As I aptly predicted... he acted like nothing happened at all tonight. He just went back to my normal old husband.

This happens at least once a week anymore... I just can't take it.

In my plan B letter (I'll post tomorrow!)-- I've asked him to move out. Finances are a huge considerations for me-- I make 1/4 of what he does and can't afford our house and my car payment on my salary alone. He currently pays our mortgage. We have separate bank accounts already.

I'm just tired of him draining my love bank, blaming it on me, and then later acting like nothing happened (when it suits him to "go back to normal")

And yes, I've read the Harley article about using the A as punishment to control the other spouse, and yes, I do think that is what is going on here, to some extent.

SBS-- thanks for coming out of hiding to support me, that means a lot!

I'll post more again later tomorrow, and my plan B letter that I have drafted so far.

Just wanted to let you all know that what I predicted... happened. He acted like nothing happened. He hasn't even uttered "I'm sorry" for last night's fiasco. Nothing. Has just acted like it didn't happen. Sigh. He can't keep doing this. I can't keep doing this. I made a H-U-G-E mistake... but I can't be "punished" for the rest of my life for it. Its draining. He's either in or out, and that's his choice, but this--the way things are now-- is not one of the options. Not anymore, at least.

Good night everyone, and thanks for the support-- it does mean a lot to me.

I think I'm going to work out the logistics of plan B before I go plan B. I have to make sure I've considered everything.

Oh-- and FYI, my state doesn't have LSA. Its D, or nothing. LSA's don't exist here. (PA). So, I can't even do that. And I don't even know how I would afford a lawyer right now (although I've read over and over again here that "good" lawyers will "figure out" how to get themselves paid.... that I shouldn't have to worry about that since H makes 4x what I do...).

I think if I asked H to leave, he would. But I don't know for sure. And if he refused, honestly, I'm not sure where I would go. I'm not sure that I have somewhere to go...

I need help working through the logistics of this....

Thanks guys.

Good night!

E.

I don't have anything constructive to add, but I am sorry you are going through this.

I can see myself in your WH by his actions, I was using my FWW's A to keep her in line, and i used to do it for just about anything for about 2-3 years.

Just letting you know we're here.

Hope the coffee is good, you ever try Hazelnut?

Thanks RMX...

I actually ended up getting an iced Chai tea latte. It just sounded good for some reason

This morning H initiated SF and has been acting as if nothing happened still.

I'm not sure how to break the cycle of him "punishing" me and using my A to keep me "inline" and doing what he wants. I have no idea at this point. Sometimes it feels like when I try to resist that that I am doing things that are counterproductive to recovery.

For example: I am involved with a volunteer organization. A few weeks ago, they had a happy hour after work to raise funds at a local swanky bar downtown that I was excited about attending. H was supposed to come with me. At the last minute, his boss sprung a golfing outing on him with a client of his. He COULD have told his boss he already had plans, but he didn't. I also encouraged him to go to the outing instead because I knew that is what HE wanted to do deep inside...

So, on the day of the happy hour, I told him I would be going instead with a friend of mine. Apparently he thought I should just not go at all since he couldn't go. He had a fit (much like the one above), threw the A in my face to get me to not go- so I didn't go (and this was a female friend I was going to go with).

This happens a lot too. My life has to revolve around him anymore, and if I try to do anything that is a semblance of having my own life, he gets upset and throws the A in my face, then I feel guilty and don't do what I wanted.

I just don't know how to break the cycle. "Consequences" for breaking my boundaries don't seem to affect him, because he just doesn't care. And any sort of "consequences" for behavior that is COMPLETELY his... well, somehow that behavior was "my fault" in the first place, therefore in his head he it is ludicrous that I am imparting consequences for something "I caused" in his head-- those consequences make him MORE angry, and then the whole cycle repeats.

I just don't know what to do anymore. I'm tired of the cycle of him doing stuff like this, then the next day "pretending" it never happened.

E.

I would pull the "Im taking my ball and going home act" when i didn't get my way.

My wife was really doing her best and I would have these days where I would try to "rage against the wo-man (her). Just finding anything I could to complain about and if she stood up, BAM, I'd bring up the A.

After awhile she would calmly tell me that shes sorry, but she can't be around me if im going to act like a a$$ and excuse herself.

She took the high road (not saying you aren't) and just left me in the apartment to throw my tantrums.

It took awhile but I finally got it. Whenever I'd have one of those days I would write a email and then file it in the recyle bin.

She had endless patience, endlessly applied with grace.

I agree with RMX. But bottom line, it has to start with you. YOU have to STOP letting him manipulate you. You and I both know you should have gone to that happy hour. He knows it too. But this is how he gets what he wants - he manipulates. But you can only manipulate someone who's willing to dance the dance. Stop dancing the dance.

Practice saying this: "I'm sorry you feel that way. But I have to do what I think is right." And then proceed to do whatever you need to do for yourself.

My IC told me about my H, who also does the guilt trip thing: "You have to stop propping him up by doing what he wants. Start doing for yourself instead. When you stop enabling him, he will either learn to stand up on his own, or he will fall flat on his face. Either way, you'll be getting what you need - to heal and grow and be happy with yourself."

Catperson--

I agree 100%. I guess where I trip up is when sometimes it feels like then I am violating the conditions for recovery... namely POJA. Yeah-- I should have gone to the happy hour. But then I feel like I am doing things counterproductive to recovery because I am intentionally doing something I know is going to make him angry, you know? It is a fine line to walk.

Last night he started again with his speeches of "I don't know if I want this marriage, I still haven't decided" (ITS BEEN A YEAR!! A YEAR!!!-- yes, I expected a time period where he "wouldn't be sure"-- but a year?!?!? a year?!?!?! come on! That's just dragging it out and torturing both of us!) He adamantly says that he's putting himself first and not putting in any effort until he decides whether or not he wants this. I tell him over and over again that its going to be hard to decide unless he sees what it COULD be, and that means HIM TRYING TOO. But he doesn't listen. I gave up on that one. Hardly any R talk anymore.

He also started last night on telling me that my feelings don't matter, and that yes, his feelings do come first and that means he doesn't care if he hurts mine-- his come first. Yes, he actually SAID these things to me. But then again two weeks ago while we were on vacation he told me that the vacation is what he needed to get back on track, and that he still would have married me three years ago even if he would have known all of this. Its like hot and cold, constantly. Arrrrggg!!! He puts in the effort-- when its convenient for him and benefits him. If it doesn't directly benefit him, then he doesn't put in the effort and goes into "me" mode and does the childish "well then I'm just gonna take my ball and go home" routine.

Remind me again why I'm still in plan A?!?!?

So, my question, catperson, RMX, whoever. How do I walk that line between not letting him walk all over me and treat me like a doormat, but still make it clear that I'm fighting for the M? Because if I would have went to that happy hour, he would have had a fit and not talked to me for three days, and been very mean. Then I get "punished" anyways. Because he'll NEVER give in first, or admit that he's wrong. Everything is justified by my A. E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G. He can do whatever he wants. He can tear my heart out and stomp on it, and well, that's OK. I deserve it (he will actually tell me I deserve it. Outright.)

My guilt keeps me here. My guilt keeps me doing what he wants. And I just don't know how to walk that line of demonstrating that I WILL do whatever it takes to save the M. But I can't be walked on or punished. And if I don't "take" whatever he dishes out, he gets mad because I deserve it.

He said he didn't want me to go to the happy hour because he "didn't trust me" there. That he can't trust me. I understand that. I have done everything IMAGINABLE... more than he's asked to rebuild trust-- I send picture messages of where I am. He has all my passwords. I've TOLD him to follow me. I hardly do anything anymore. I gave up all of my friends at work because they all knew OM-- and even tho he doesn't work here anymore, I don't really talk to them because they enabled-- and even encouraged-- my A. I have nothing to hide, I hide nothing. But yet, he STILL doesn't even trust me an inkling-- and throws that in my face anytime I try to do anything remotely independent.

But what also confounds me.... he uses my guilt to control me. But I just don't get how he can feel NO GUILT whatsoever. None! I just don't get that.

All I know is that pretty soon, I won't have ANYTHING left in my lovebank for him. He can be caring and loving-- when he wants to be. And that in and of itself takes away from the fact that he's being caring and loving. And when its not advantageous for him, he acts like a child having a hissy fit and says some VERY mean things.

How do I walk that line????

What do we think about plan B now? Or should I work on becoming more independent and not letting him walk on me first? I think that is about the ONLY thing I can think of that I can work on for me.

Help!!!!!

E.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be going to counseling on a weekly basis, for a good long time, until I'm strong enough to take care of my needs. Yes, you had an A. But you've been transparent and very giving to his needs, and he is taking advantage of it.

Honestly, if I were you, I'd already be in Plan B. I don't see any R worth saving at this point.

E.,

You must get over the guilt. There are multiple rationalizations that could be used with your sitch. First, your A was reciprocated in spades and second, there has been plenty of time passed that this should not be thrown in your face.

However, rationalizations are not the healthiest reasons for doing things. The biggest reason to dump the guilt is that we humans are not built to harbor such strong emotions like guilt or bitterness. They eat us alive. We must hold them for the length of time needed to refine us and then we must let it go. Your guilt has refined you and in your heart you have been willing to do anything to make amends for your actions. Drop the guilt.

Sorry, but from now on when he brings up your A, the answer must be - "it is time to stop talking about OUR A's". Don't let him throw your A in your face while his is not mentioned. However, don't throw his in his face either. The "OUR" affairs simply references them and nullifies his venom. When he tries to throw anything in your face from that, just tell him you have done all you can to make amends and have released the guilt. It has no place in your life anymore. That it is time to forgive each other.

Your M has no chance while you let him walk on you. You current choice is to take back the control of your emotions and your life and try to continue to Plan A from that standpoint or to go to Plan B as you are proposing.

As I recall, his walking on you is not new. If you believe by standing up for yourself you can cure it, then try again. If not, then it is time to cut your losses. I just know you cannot continue with an empty love bank as you have. I applaud your resolve, but this is the same emotionally as if you starved yourself the next 40 days. As a physical fast will lead to a physical breakdown, an emotional fast will lead to an emotional breakdown.

SBS

Catperson--

I've been counseling with Jennifer now, about once a month (although have cut back recently, just because of anticipation of $$$ issues if indeed H and I separate... I make 1/4 of what he does and am going to struggle to pay for things...). In addition to that, I attended IC for a bit-- I work for a major university and am entitled to 20 free sessions in our university's counseling center. I used some of those 20 free sessions for MC... H and I went for a bit this fall, but we both agreed the MC was a bit of a doofus. Then again, the MC would suggest things and H would sit there and shoot down everything the MC said because "he wasn't willing to do anything for the M until he decided whether or not he wanted it".

Sometimes I wonder if he really wants to just drive me to the brink so that I "give up" and then he can run off and point the finger at me and say it was all my fault... that I screwed up and then wouldn't do what it takes...

I'll post my current plan B letter here in a few. I have one composed already (I couldn't post it this weekend because it is on my work computer, and I don't use the boards from my home computer because I don't want H finding my thread from the computer history...). Then at least I'll have it ready to go....

Anyone else? Short of plan B, I'm not sure what else to do anymore? He constantly runs hot and cold with me.

E.

Thanks SBS. I'm grasping at threads right now to hold on to what "fight" I have left in me. At this point I'm starting to question what it is I'm fighting for, and if I even want this man-- he's not the man I know or married.

I do need to let the guilt go. Its hard though, when you feel so GUILTY! And yes, I'd be willing to do whatever it took, for the rest of my life. If I knew this was going to get us somewhere, I'd keep fighting. But its not getting us anywhere, sadly, and I don't think it ever will. It will take both of us on board.

I like the idea of saying to him "its time to stop talking about OUR As". I anticipate that will be met with some sort of proclamation of how his 'wasn't as bad' as mine, or whatever. I feel guilty looking out for myself though, and not the M. But he's certainly not looking out for the M...

And, truthfully, reading here kills me too-- reading what the BS's all say, and their pain, WOW. But I just don't have much left in me. I really don't.

And no, his walking on me is not new. He's always used guilt to control me to some level, although this is 234345656657 times worse than it ever was before-- to the level where its unbearable.

We have another vacay with family planned in August. I think I may try "standing up for myself" and try being a bit less "door-mat-ish" until then. Try to look out for myself when he's being like this-- and look out for the M when he decides to "behave". I'll need some major help here though, when he's misbehaving, he KNOWS what buttons to push to kill me inside-- and I have a hard time not responding.

RMX, SBS, catperson-- want to stick with me for a month? We'll work on that plan B letter, work on my plan A. I can do this with some support and a light at the end of the tunnel (plan B is my light... either way, plan B is better for me at the end of this. I need him out of my life if he's not on-board until he decides he's on-board. Its just too stressful and hurtful to have him in my life like this, as guilty as I feel and as much as I love him...). In the end, I would hope he "wakes up"-- but I have little hope that anything other than plan B will do that.

Another question...

So, in my plan B letter, I want to work in there that if during our plan B separation I find that he's dating/flirting/perusing dating websites, etc, it will be immediate plan D. Reason for this: When H was "fighting for our M"-- before I even moved out-- I caught him on dating websites. He claims NOW it was because "our M was already over" (although at the time he said he was fighting for the M). These dating websites were eventually what lead to his A (that was how he met her... and he told her he was divorced). Additionally, this past November, he asked another woman out to lunch, and then proceeded to send her flirty emails for a few days before I found out. I'm not putting up with this crap anymore, and not taking as an excuse that "I abandoned him" or "I kicked him out"--- which would be his excuse to "find someone else". He also did this to his ex-girlfriend before me-- he dated her for 4 years, and they broke up and got back together several times, but every time things were rocky with them, he'd start flirting with other women/taking them out, etc. I'm not putting up with that. That is grounds for IMMEDIATE plan D. He's in or he's out. He doesn't get to sample the field then come back.

How can I work that in, without it being a DJ? Or should I leave that out (I mean, most rational people would realize this without it being said, but not him. He thinks if he's not getting it at home he's got a right to go out and get it somewhere else...).

Plan B letter coming, so we can work on it... (I keep saying that, don't I... and I haven't posted it yet, haha!)

E.

If him not 'dating' while you're working on your marriage - which actually is just another affair - is a key issue, state it as one of the requirements for getting back together. Simple as that. No guilt involved, just logic. Why should he get to screw around?

THAT is what counseling is for! You don't respect yourself. Most likely because of years of being manipulated and disrespected by him.

Have I recommended the book Why Does He Do That? Inside the Minds of Angry and Controlling Men by Bancroft yet? I think it would do you a WORLD of good to read it; just so that you can recognize manipulation and turn off your reaction to it. Please read it.

And get yourself to counseling NOW!