They do!!! Hard to believe that JL is neither a FWS or a BS, and yet has so much insight and wisdom to offer those of us that have walked that road, huh? Amazing! I'm tellin' y'all, HE IS YODA!

Mrs. W

JL,


He truly does have an amazing way of relating what we are all going through. I for one make it a point to read all his posts hoping to learn the ways of the FORCE!!!!!

MyRev,


It's totally par for the course. I had very similar experiences too. Valentine's Day is a trigger date followed closely by our Dday of 2/17. We too were cruising along in recovery and then we reached those days and then bam. It was like running into a brick wall for me. Luckily, I've never really been an angry person, but instead, I was hit with this immense sadness and feeling of loss that I have struggled to shake. It is so hard to explain something that is intangible, but is missing none the less.


It does help to have a truly Former WW leading recovery and being able to sense how their BH is feeling. It's the little actions and words of care that make all the difference. At the same time though, it makes what we are dealing with that much more difficult. In my head, I know there is nothing LaLa could do differently to make things easier. Yet, when I am struggling, I end up feeling guilty for the feelings I have. I think it goes back to being the protector of our DWs. Even if it means protecting them from ourselves.


I think this is why you and I give the advice we do. Because we have already learned that having a truly remorseful FWW(man i hate labeling LaLa) is just the first step towards recovery. It is a horribly difficult mountain to climb even with a WW that is fully onboard in recovery.


Ditto with everything you said. I HATE everything about this place too. I HATE being a part of this club. I HATE seeing how truly awful people are capable of being to one another. I have sworn off coming here so many times myself. Yet, I'm drawn here like a moth to the flame. My other problem is that I shy away from posting because I don't want to project any of my own struggles onto other BHs. I have a confession to make. I suffer from OCD. I'm probably the worst personality type to be dealing with infidelity. Through dealing with LaLa's A, I have come to realize just how much my obsessive thoughts have ruled my life for as long as I can remember. All the way back to when I was a teenager it was one obsession after another. Each one being replaced by a new one along the way. At the time of LaLa's A, it was my obsession with the business I was building that gave LaLa the justifications for the choices she made. Unfortunately, that event knocked the business obsession from my mind and it was quickly replaced with LaLa's A. Quit literally, the thoughts of the A start the moment I wake up in the morning until the moment I go to sleep at night. Sometimes, they even carry over into my dreams while I sleep. Every event, fight, fog-filled statement echo in my head like a broken record. It's like the movie "Groundhog Day" only mine revolves around LaLa's A. It's like reliving Dday over and over again. I've gotten better at controlling it and ignoring it to the point that it is just background noise in my head, but it has been an incredibly difficult adjustment. So you can see why I just tend to read and not post because I don't want anyone else getting stuck in the patterns I'm in.


It is very different MyRev. It's different because what we are doing goes against everything we believed ourselves to be. We both found ourselves in horrible situations. Yet, when it happened we also found out just how much we LOVE our DW's in spite of the mistakes they made. For a long while, I approached recovery as being able to rewire my brain as to what is acceptable for my life. Recently though, I have come to realize that is never going to happen. I can't change who I am. I will never be OK with what LaLa choose to do. The key is though that you don't have to be. You just have to accept that you can't change the past no matter how bad you, LaLa, FF or I would like to. All any of us can do is pass judgment on our lives the way they are NOW.

We both chose well MyRev. Our DWs made mistakes. They are just human after all. They are doing all that they can to make amends for those mistakes. It's up to us to have the grace and strength to allow them to do it. One day at a time. Hang in there and keep the faith........

Want2Stay

MyRev,

I know where you are coming from with the anger issues. I am now 5 years out from the A and 3 1/2 years out from D-Day. I still trigger when it is around the 4th of July. LC does everything she can to try and make that day a better experience, but in fact, all I can usually picture is her in his embrace while I am off working another 12 hour shift. I had thought that POSOM and I were close friends and he would frequently come over to visit, eat our food, drink our beer, and generally hang out. All this was going on while he was trying to bed my FWW. I think that as time goes on, the pain lessens and the anger dissipates, but it never really goes away completely.

LC like FogFree, tries to minimize the A by saying, “It could have been so much worse…”. Although this is probably true, what was lost was the innocence of the marriage and the trust. Although you can rebuild trust, the innocence is gone forever. There are always going to be times when I flashback to the memory of LC being with POSOM and the some of the pain returns. As time goes by the interval between these flashbacks grows and they become fewer. I can honestly say that I was never abusive to LC in any way, but our marriage absolutely sucked for the last 15 years before the A. I partly blame myself for this as my ambition to further my career and better provide for the family meant spending less time with the family, thereby leaving the opportunity for FOM to wedge himself between us. The ironic thing about this is that FOM wanted to be me. He wanted everything that I had and thought that by gaining LC he could become me. What a POS he was. He rewrote the book on lies and deceit which has come back now to haunt him. Truly, if I ever saw him again he would lose his fingernails and kneecaps and that will never change. I know that that would never happen, because like most FOM he too is a coward (even his own brother refers to him as “pussboy”).

As for our M now, LC and I have spent a great deal of time and effort to make it a great bond that I hope will last a lifetime. I have adopted a go with the flow approach to dealing with everything, thereby reducing friction between us and stress. So far it is working and LC has also loosened the reigns a bit with compromises.

As for the anger about the affair, I do believe that with time all wounds heal. Remember though that there are some scars that can hurt forever and we have to just accept them and move on with our lives. My favorite quote is “Whatever doesn’t kill you makes you stronger…” (unknown author).

Docp

p.s., sorry for the rambling…

Hey W2S, long time...

A number of things you said really hit home for me.


Sometimes I think I feel worse about how I feel about ILMH in these moments, than anything. This really rings true. I truly never had so much as a bad thought about her for our first 8 1/2 years together.


With ya...


YES! This is exactly how I feel. I hope that one day I will be able to compartmentalize a bit more, but it sure hurts like HE!!


...hence the perpetual torment...

I thank you all for allowing the lattitude for this T/J. I just had to comment as this so completely touchd on what I'm going through.

W2S, are we the same person?!?

MyRev,

I am glad you started this thread. When I first read it I knew my DH (Docp) could relate to what you were saying and how you are feeling. As others replied I knew he could also relate to them. Docp HATES visiting here and he usually choses not to unless I ask him to specifically read something.

I did ask him to read your thread and post only if he wanted to. IMO, if more FWS who are in recovery read the words of their own BS's some might be more actively involved in doing what they can to help their BS's recover. Of course, I can imagine many won't want to because reading the pain you know you caused is very hard to do. I also think it is necessary because it makes it real.

Like I told Docp yesterday after I read his post, I appreciate the fact he did put out here how he is feeling. It is not very often I get a peak inside his head to really know what he is thinking and how he is feeling. I can usually only imagine based on conversations we have. I knew he still had anger toward FOM, I did not know it was to the extent that it is.

My suggestion to you is keep making sure Fogfree knows how you are feeling because she will be better able to do her part in getting through this ugly mess.

LC

Fogfree,

I have some advice for you, too.

If/when MyRev shares his feelings with you or you read them here, do your best to listen and not turn around and beat yourself up over it. While reading this thread and posting I just realized that a big part of Docp not sharing with me is because of my reaction to how he was feeling. Early on anytime he shared I would get very depressed, feel bad and beat myself up over my huge mistake. IMO, he stopped sharing because of this.

LC

Dcop,

Sorry for not responding earlier. I suspected you were lifechoice's BH, but I wasn't sure until I confirmed it with FogFree yesterday evening.

It appears that we can relate to the common feelings of "anger" over all of this mess, and I too, use my image of POSOM as a convenient and relatively safe outlet for my own personal "anger release" fantasies. You have the advantage AND disadvantage of knowing your POSOM. While it wouldn't be safe for me to actually meet this waste of air ... I'm also left to wonder, what he looked like, how could he "charm" FF in such a short period of time with his OBVIOUS character flaws, how was FF so BLIND, etc.

I only got to confront POSOM by phone as he lives 4 states away and only met FF one night in Mexico, while she was vacationing with 2 of her girlfriends, (BTW, girls only vacations and one of the girlfriends are a thing of the past) but POSOM was a real SLIME. He started talking tough about how "He would just come to our state and take FF from me", until I invited him to "Come on Down" ... along with a list of everything that I'd found out about him and how I was prepared to blow up his world. About that time he realized how a cheap vacation fling wasn't worth his family, job or HEALTH, and he couldn't backpedal fast enough and threw FF under the bus by claiming that she was the one stalking him and pushing the relationship that meant nothing to him. What a COWARD!!!

With that little bit of background, you should know that I literally laughed out loud at the "pussboy" reference. Thanks for that.

I see from lifechoice's post that you don't particularly like MB, and as you can see from my first post on this thread, I don't either. However, I will give this place props for one very important thing that has really helped us.

MB provides a language for FF and I to discuss these issues that we were just never really clear and in sync with. When talking about relationship issues, I was saying one thing, but FF was hearing something different ... we just weren't "communicating" although we were talking a great deal. Now we have a common vocabulary where we are both on the same page with definitions of these terms and how they relate with the rest of our lives. This single thing has made MB a huge benefit for us, even though I find some of the plans themselves to be quite lacking.

I guess we each find our own "nuggets" of knowledge where we can.

I can also relate to how you have learned to "go with the flow". I had a problem with Angry Outbursts ... they were very rarely directed at FF, but she would be the one to listen to my rants ... now those are rarely a problem as I just choose to not let minor stuff bother me.

Now the A is still another issue and not MINOR at all ... and still occupys much of my thoughts ... hence the residual anger that led me to start this thread initially. I still tend to dwell at times on the lost "innocence" of our M, but I'm trying to refocus FORWARD on what we have built for our future, with the help of GREAT people like Just Learning and all of the rest of the guys (and a couple of gals) that have posted to me.

It was nice to meet you (so to speak) ... Thanks for taking to time to weigh in on this subject.

lifechoice,

I just wanted to offer up a Thank You for reaching out to FogFree early on. Between you, JL and Ace ... you have provided her with a GREAT trifecta of experience, wisdom and support for her to draw from, and I very much appreciate the results of your interaction.

Words really aren't enough, but THANK YOU!!!

You all have given me my WIFE back, and I am eternally grateful.

Heya MyRev! Good ta see ya and all that!

I don't know if I have any advice, more just commiseration. I share alot of your feelings, we are very close in timelines. I think I had a similar blow up to your Valentines Day event, my W handled it much better than I think I would have. I myself am not historically prone to angry outbursts, but I tell ya man, through the whole A and in the wake of it, it really did bring them out in me. For a long time there was not an inanimate object that was safe in my hands. I developed a fondness for smashing things that in retrospect would be comical if it weren't so bizarre and useless. Projecting that anger on my WW is something that I have done as well (NOT physically, but verbally), not often, but a few times. Honestly, I think that in order to really be TRUTHFUL in talking about an A, that anger HAS to come out. It is a part of it, it is REAL. To deny it, to completely swallow it, isn't really being true to one's self. The WS has to be able to face it, I think for them it is a part of process of understanding the damage they have inflicted. As BSs we also have to be able to know that we can express our real feelings without driving the FWS away. Otherwise, we are just walking on eggshells, sucking it up, right?

We are coming up on the anniversary of DDay here, but for me, D-Day does not represent what it does for many so I don't anticipate it being a real trigger day. I have to check my own profile to even know when that date is. For me, D-Day was really a good day. It was the day the truth came out and alot of weight came off my shoulders that day. The early part of this year was tough for me though. I spent alot of time dwelling on the "well this time last year it was like this. . ." and rehashing the brutal treatment my WW was dishing out. I think it is part of the process of coming to terms with the "new" reality of a truly repentant FWS compared to the misery of life with an active WS. I struggle with trusting MYSELF and my own judgement, still.

Anyhow, I share with you a conflicted feeling about participating here. For a time I really wanted to reach out and help other BS, but it is tough work that can tend to drag me back into my own negative spiral. I also realize there are others that are better at it than myself. Now I mainly come to keep up with others who's situations I am interested in and to try to keep my focus on our personal recovery and seek some knowledge in the Recovery forum.

Anyhow, I wish you the best MyRev! Keep plugging away, it sounds like all things considered, you're right about where you should be, and the good thing about that is that there are many people here who have gone before us and while it can be hard to trust that they really are happy, I think we just have to trust them that it is possible. They've been right about so many other things up to this point that it would be foolish to discount them now, right?

Hey Tyk ... amazing timing ... FogFree and I were talking about this thread last night, and she asked if I had heard from "Tyk" in awhile. Your ears must have been burning.



Very well said ... I know our R didn't REALLY begin until I finally unleashed my bottled up anger and FogFree actually got to experience and understand "the damage they have inflicted".


I've learned that there are a few here I can COUNT on for sound wisdom, and now that you're here, it seems like they've all showed up to help me out. I just wish there was a way to repay all of you guys.

Thank You!!!

HEY TYK!! I actually searched your posts last night to see if you had posted recently. I haven't been around as much and was wondering how you were as well. Good to "see" ya!

I have always kept up with this group, most of whom have already posted on this thread, because Want2Stay and I have a lot of respect for all of you and it seems we all have similar timelines and have always been there to help each other.

I don't have much to add, just wanted to say HI and that even though I hate the REASONS we are in this club together, you have all been a great support system to us...we can never thank you all enough!

MyRev,

Thank you for the compliment, I'm glad I can help. I admit, this is a subject I wish I did not have experience in.

LC

Us too!!!

On a more positive note, FogFree and I may be online some today, but will be leaving early tomorrow for 9 days of RC time relaxing at our favorite northwoods lake house and won't likely be around MB during this period.

You guys hold down the fort, and we'll be thinking of you while holding down a deck chair and enjoying a few cold Leinenkugel's.

Just a quick update, as I'm covered up at work this morning after being away for awhile.

FogFree and I returned from our Northwoods trip late last night, and it has been a very tiring, but satisfying past 9 days ... and don't worry about the "tiring" comment ... its all a good kind of tired ... the kind where you can get out from behind your desk and do something very physical that keeps your mind off of your troubles and allows you a positive outlet that helps you work through some of the anger issues.

I got through the anniversary of the ONS just before leaving for the trip, and actually went through the D-Day 1 year anniversary while on vacation, without "major" difficulties. The ONS anniversary was the worst, and I was VERY angry that entire day. D-Day + 1 year wasn't too bad ... a few flashbacks of very hurtful words that I will likely NEVER forget, but we were very active that day, and I was able to refocus when the images started fairly easily, with only one negative comment towards FF about the date.

Anyway, I feel MUCH better after having gotten through those two days, and even feel somewhat refreshed. I have even noticed that I have began to allow myself to view the future through a more positive frame of mind.

Thanks again to everyone, and ESPECIALLY JustLearning, for your kindness and words of wisdom ... and patience with my rants at times.

MyRev,

Glad your vacation was "exhausting" and productive. I for one, am glad I could be of some help to you and FF. I wish you both a long and happy marriage. Since you two are so young, , I fully expect to see another 30 or 40 years of good marriage and life from you two.

God Bless,

JL

My Rev,

Glad you and FF had a nice vacation. How are things going now that you have been back home for a little while?

LC

LC,

Glad to hear from you ... I'll have FogFree post with a full update, but I wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for reaching out to FF early on and helping her through her issues. I can never express how much you, Ace and JustLearning have helped us.

As a quick update (FogFree can fill in the details), things are nearly back to normal (maybe even better than what I thought was normal). No doubt her A has fundementally changed our lives, and her list of friends has gotten smaller, but our relationship is probably stronger than ever. We are nearly inseperable during our free time, and we have gotten back to where we spend time together VERY EASILY ... the companionship is easier, our conversations are better on both serious matters and life's minutae, and our sex life may have NEVER been better.

I still haven't reached the point of forgiveness ... maybe I never will, and I still catch myself having difficulties trusting her, even though she's given me no reasons not to for nearly a year, but I find those issues being less and less a drain on me.

She has a National Sales Meeting coming up in a few weeks, and I'm dreading that week, but she has EP's put in place that she follows religiously when she travels so she really is doing all she can to help relieve my anxieties.

All in all ... I'd say we're in a pretty good place considering WHY we ever needed MB in the first place.

Words really aren't enough, but THANKS, AGAIN!!!

LC,

Thanks for checking in, Girlfriend! You always seem to brighten my day.

Things have been going well, as MyRev said. We spend a TON of time together: either doing constructive things around the house, or just hanging out on the deck with our dogs, having a cocktail and chatting about our day. We communicate better than we ever have, which is a great thing. His AO's are fewer and farther between, which he has been working on greatly. Our SF has been terrific--I look forward to him coming home every day now!!

It does hurt that he feels that he may never forgive me, but I do realize that I brought that on myself. I try every day to be the best wife that I can be, and to continue to meet his EN's and as he said, I have very solid EP's in place whenever I have to travel, which is getting to be less and less as time goes on. We're in constant contact when I'm gone, and as soon as my meetings, appointments, dinners are over, I'm back in the room either working on the laptop, reading or chatting with MR. He truly is my best friend, and it makes me sick when I think about what I almost lost. I thank God for him and our family every day.

Proof of his love and commitment to me: I have a minor health issue that has been diagnosed, but it will require surgery. I'm not sure when this will take place, but probably sometime in November. This upcoming surgery has caused me anxiety, but he sits and listens as I cry or whine about it, and constantly reassures me that he will be right by my side during the hospital stay, and will run the household while I'm in my recovery period. The tenderness that he has shown since the diagnosis is very heartwarming to me--I appreciate and love you very much, MR!!

On a happy note--we have a two week vacation to look forward to at the first of October at this same lake house again!! We'll be grouse hunting with our FIVE English Setters, and eating so much rich food that we'll need to detox for a month when we get back!!

Thanks again, LC, for checking in on us. You, Ace, and JustLearning have been invaluable to us during the past year. Hope you have a wonderful weekend!!

FF,

Would you pardon this intrusion, but I want to speak with MyRev for a moment.

Hi MyRev! As you know we have been posting on Mike's thread. I thought I would offer you some thoughts for your consideration.

First thought, a BS should be willing to leave the marriage. I think that step in thinking for the BS is important IF they are going to use the plans discussed in this site. A good negotiation isn't going to happen if there are not alternative plans.

So I think you are absolutely right that a BS should be willing to leave the marrigae even if he/she wants it to continue.

But, I sort of look at this as a negotiation or perhaps a lawyer making a closing remark to the jury. It is important that he have a good case but it is not sufficient. What is required is that the lawyer/negotiator/businessman present this case in the best possible light so that the jury is receptive to the information and that side of the issue.

I also have no issue with the BS showing their anger upon discovery, as long as no one is physically harmed. that caveat is easier said than done. I know. However, it has been my experience that when in a serious fight, the best state of mind is a "steely eyed coolness, that focus totally on the job at hand". I can say this from more experience than I want to discuss. The more serious the situation, the colder one needs to become.

I know you like to recommend the white hot flame of indignation. I also know from experience that it feels good to "let it go" when someone really does you in. But, I also know from experience that I have been my most effective when I went "cold" and really assessed the situation, made my plans and executed them.

I view counseling a BS that has just found out, to give it time and settle down so that they can get to that "cold" state and really assess the situation and what they are going to do. I believe K thinks the same way. I know you don't.

However, what you might not see is that I and I think K, he and I have discussed these things over the many years here, want the BS to get to a place where they can see leaving the marriage as an option. Only then can DECISIONS really be made and commitments be decided upon. Only then can goals and plans be realistically evaluated.

What am I babbling about? Please understand that on many levels we all agree. The BS should be willing to leave even if that is not their first choice for recovery to really work well. I view it as a balanced negotiation then: the WS is willing to leave to be with OM/OW, and the BS is willing to leave to remove themselves from the pain and deceit and find a better partner than they have right then. Hopefully that better partner is who the WS turns into, but only time will tell that.

All I am really saying is consider your presentation. Your goal to get the BS to stand up and say "You know I don't need this, and if things don't improve or the WS is not willing to do their part, I am out of here." is one I agree with.

Personally, I have always thought that Harley agrees with this. His only counsel via the plans is that with using the plans one gains the time and insight to be SURE which decision by the BS bests suits them. It seems that many BS' upon reflection and the willingness of the WS to come to the table realize that it is worth their while to remain in the marriage and make it a good one. Nothing is guarenteed.

I know I am preaching to the choir. Thanks for listening to me.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

You know that I value your opinion and direction, but we're obviously not going to agree with each other all of the time.

Regarding taking immediate action vs. "being still", as is advocated here quite often ... in most cases (and I'm only talking about BH's here), BH's need to act immediately and decisively.

In looking back on our situation ... the thing I am MOST proud of, is how I drew a line in the dirt right THEN. Within 15 minutes of actual discovery ... I told FF that I loved her, but I would not share her ... she had a choice to make right then and right there in our den ... she could agree to immediate and permanent NC or she could LEAVE.

She has later told me that my actions so shocked her, that she was forced to face reality. She claims that during the A, she never really considered me or my feelings or what I would do if I ever discovered her A, and that my ultimatum JOLTED her into facing the reality of what was going on. She says that she NEVER considered that my response would be to demand immediate and permanent NC with OM.

Also, I may have never posted it, but I agree with your "coldness" approach, and that is the way I approached my situation sprinkled with a few well placed moments of pure RAGE, which were mostly reserved for my phone conversation the next morning with OM ... cool, calm, collected with a few moments of RAGE.

For some reason BH's seem to be more likely to be paralyzed upon discovery and have a way of allowing their WW's to use them as their personal doormats, and I will readily admit to feeling a bond with those BH's who take immediate action. I really think it is in their long term best interests.

Re: K ... I see where you two have a personal friendship and have met outside of MB, which probably means that we shouldn't discuss K going forward, because I had a very distasteful initial experience with K and then after I learned more of his story ... I just don't have much respect for him. He will readily proclaim how he is the chosen one to "talk the talk", but the facts show that he can't "walk the walk" ... therefore, being an BH, is see much more value in actions rather than words.

I hope that revelation doesn't affect our exchanges, but felt you deserved to hear my thoughts since you brought up the topic.

All in all, we're basically sending the same message with just different words and approaches, or at least, that's my perception.

I hope you have a good weekend.

Respectfully submitted;

MR