TL,<BR>I am still a lurker, although I do not post here as often as I used to.<P>Your post caught my eye. Because I too called the OW at work last week. I have moved into the fogiveness stage and I called to tell her that I have forgiven her. My H and I am WELL into recovery (8 months-STRONG). <P>God, how I hated the OW at a point. Terribly. So much so that it got me arrested! Yes, I smacked her on the head in a public place then hit her car (she was not in it...although I wished she were at times....heheheh ) That was the day, thank the Lord, that their affair ended.<P>I worked through so much to realize that it was not her who had the power over me, she was not the reason for my failing marriage...we did that by ourselves for years and years. All she was, was a catylist. She brought our problems into light. I read, prayed and looked for the truth inside my self.<P>And the truth was this: all she was, was a little 24 year old, who had a crappy childhood, and no where to turn. She turned to a married man, POOR choice, MY married man, AWFUL choice. But somehow, she was able to set him free to come home (his choice, really). Seems like Mia did that as well.<P>So, I had my husband back. The reason why he was home, and BTW, he did not come home until 6 weeks after their break-up....was because I did my work. I knew I needed to change me. Not to make him happy, but to make me better. I encourage you to listen to the others here, don't allow Mia to control you, or determine your happiness. She is not worthy of that. No one is. You need to take control of you life again, and decide what it is you need to do to become happy again. This I will promise you, if you continue to stay in a place of misery, you will only sink lower and lower.<P>Rise above it, and shine. You can make it. I know it.<BR>Best of luck, Sally<P>------------------<BR>You will be stronger because of this.<P>

TL,<P>You are wrong in saying that I did damage and then sat back and waited for the H to come to me. I broke it off with no contact and never expecting to see or talk to him again. He did Marriage Builders, they went to counseling and so did he. After all that he still could not stay and then he came to me. He is lucky I was still there. The truth is I could never have gotten over him in a year and a half but he didn't know that. Now he does but he didn't then. The affair was wrong but I feel we both did the right thing by ending it and by him working on his marriage without any contact with me. <P>I am not Mia and my H is not your H. But I did learn a thing or two as I went through all this hell, and I think sometimes it can help others. I don't want to be a target for your anger and hurt, that is not why I post. Since that is what I seem to be becoming to you and since you don't seem to want to hear my advice which is up to you, I'll stop posting to you. I hope things go better for you.<P>Del

Sheba:<P>I'd like you to help me write that letter. Just to let you know, I've written several of them to him over the course of the past year, and he reads them, says nothing, and leaves them on the kitchen counter. No response at all. Maybe I'm not saying the right things. I don't think it matters any more but I'll try one more time. Then I'm calling it quits.

Hi Tired Lady -<P>I am so glad that you will try this one more time......<P>Do you want me to write things here or do you want to EMail?<P>I am sick and fell asleep before you posted this last nite....I'm sorry !!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba<P>Also, give us an update of you and H...

The way I do it (see and be polite to OW every week without fail) is that I make myself believe that I am the adult in the situation. And that I want her to see that I am absolutely above reproach. That he presence does not bother me at all. I relate to H as if she is not there, doing all the things I would normally do (except affection of course.. although I am curious as to what she would do if I simply grabbed him and started kissing him .. she seems so mellow, she might do nothing.. Hmmm. interesting topic for another day.? Anyway, I pretend that there is nothing that will faze me and so far it is working. She can never go to H and say that "the wife" is a B***H." She has me as an example of absolute propriety and maturity and this will make her actions and situation look even more pathetic. Just a suggestion. Hope it helps. <P>------------------<BR>Rachel :)<P>

Sheba - here would be fine. Guess it might help someone else other than me. H is still gone, didn't hear from him. I know he is really pissed off. Oh well.

TL:<P>OK... I'm going to hope that you went back, and saw I <B>never</B> called Mia a "saint." I can understand your latching on to my saying... <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If she’s as awful as you say(and I really have my doubts, but that’s another story)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>but extrapolating that into my calling her a "saint" is taking it a bit far. It's interesting how you and some of the other posters here gloss over what I am trying to say in favor of one side comment, ignoring the CONTENT of the posts.<P>I saw(and still see) her as someone like me, who thought otherwise a good person, made a HORRIBLE mistake... and finally realized it. I seriously doubt she's sitting back and denying responsibility for the current state of your marriage, and just waiting for the implosion. In fact, until your call, I would bet she <B>wasn't</B> in contact with him. But I bet she is now.<P>I don't think <B>she's</B> awful... I think she did an awful thing.<P>I think what set me off was the sheer hatred. It's just I have seen here the damage hatred can do. Anger and hate most definitely have their place in the aftermath of discovery, but you can't recover your marriage with them. There are people here who preach hate. Do whatever you can to DESTROY the OP; your spouse is SCUM and undeserving of you; etc. These people are a cancer on society and on the efforts of recovering marriages. I even tried to post helpfully to some of them at one time, but their hate was too strong to take any advice. Is that really the way you want to live the rest of your life? As someone who is only capable of hate?<P>Anger breeds anger... hate breeds hate. That is why I won't edit my posts... your hatred for Mia flowed over into my responses to you, and I think that should remain. For that I am somewhat sorry, but not completely, because maybe you need to see how hatred affects <B>everything</B> and everyone in your life, not just Mia. I'm even finally adding a signature to my posts because of this. I know you're angry, and as I have always said, you have EVERY right to be. But the hate has to go. It will destroy you.<P>In my response to that anger, I posted about pitying your H. Do I really??? That's a tough one. Do I pity a man who cheated on his wife? No... of course not. Do I pity a man whose wife has nothing in her heart but hate, and is unwilling to let it go? Yes. Open your heart... it's the only way you will truly live.<P>OK... I'm going to try, for the last time, to take a different tack here. Know that when I use the word "love" here, I am describing the fantasy "love" of an affair. I know now that what I felt was real, but the person I felt it for wasn't. Just try telling me that during my affair though, or the withdrawal afterwards. I wouldn't have listened to a word. Same with your H.<P>I hope you can take a deep breath, and see how I describe Mia. This is my opinion only, but I think it's a pretty good one, since <B>I</B> was in the same boat. For whatever reason, she was just as vulnerable to this affair as was your H. But <B>she</B> stopped it. Much too late, of course, but she still did. Think about this... <B>she gave up the one "true love" of her life because she knew it was wrong.</B> Fought her way through the fantasy, which is harder than you could possibly imagine, and did something "right." I will grant you, she should have done it <B>MUCH</B> sooner. But she did it nonetheless. If she's a dragon lady, she simply tired of your H and doesn't care. If she's an otherwise good person, this will haunt her for the rest of her life. I'm sure the latter would make you happy.<P>Why do you think she sat on the end of that telephone and took your abuse? If she was really the snake you think she is, she would have just hung up on you and laughed. I think it's very likely she thinks she <B>deserves</B> your anger and hatred. That's not the actions of a Dragon Lady, those are the actions of someone who truly regrets a horrible mistake.<P>I don't think you'll ever "get over it," nor should you. It's unfair to even ask, and I for one would NEVER ask anyone to do so. I know <B>I</B> won't, and I know my W won't either. Your H is DEEP in withdrawal. I think once he gets out of it, I think you will need to <B>insist</B> he go to counseling with you, but that particular bridge is a long way off. You need to get him back first, to show him there's more to you than hatred.<P>An aside to IOH... my compassion was evident in the first few posts when I was attempting to help TL work through her hatred... but she would have none of it. If you can't believe what I wrote, you should have seen the first draft. What you saw was tame in comparison and in the face of TL's hatred (which is destroying any chance of restoring her marriage) very justified.<P><P>------------------<BR>No marriage was ever healed by the judicious application of hatred.

Tired Lady - I've been reading but trying to stay away from posting, everyone seems to have an awful lot to say. Also, everyone has some really valid points. You ARE tired, and you're hurt beyond belief and living w/ your h's withdrawal is just prolonging the nightmare. There's some good advice for you in the eighty-some posts before mine, even the ones that hurt your feelings and put you on the defensive. Read them again - yours too.<P>I was writing in now just to say I was sorry and give you my support. I know how you must be feeling right now. I do hope that he returns soon.<P>Sheba has some good ideas (and doesn't she always SAY them so well - luv ya, Sheba!) You can't speed up his withdrawal. You can't change what has happened. You have to do the things you can do for YOU. It's been said before - even by you - hate will only destroy you and your marriage. You have shown an amazing amount of courage so far - draw on it one more time. It's still there and you can do it. <P>Right now, believe it or not, YOU have all of the power. H doesn't, he's in withdrawal so deep he probably doesn't know his last name. Mia doesn't. She's removed herself from the position of power - and better late than never, I'd say. I wish that my H's OW would do that. but you do. You can change your life and his. It hurts, it's unrewarding for the present, anyway, but you have the power to change everything. To try to build or destroy your marriage, to help your H through withdrawal or push him farther away. To help yourself to heal from the hurt and anger or to destroy your spirit by holding on to it.<P>And I know you can do it. I've kept up with you and I've seen how very strong you are. It starts with a decision - actions will follow if you're determined. and you will see results.<P>Please try, for yourself, to replace the anger in your heart with love, compassion, forgiveness. I know you can, I just know it.<P>"Where roses bloom, thistles cannot grow."<P>You are in my prayers.<P>Lori

WhoDat, <P>You seem to be a very intelligent woman (you write beautifully) but I don't know why you want so badly to convince TL of your intentions. <P>Believe me, I was horrified by her words... and I have been both betrayed and betrayer... but still cannot imagine the extent of hatred that would allow a person to watch another die without helping (no matter what the sin - hate the sin, love the sinner, that's how I try to see it). I feel the same way when I read some others posts, usually posted by the betrayed, so I stay away from the really hurtful ones whenever possible. <P>However, I do care about TL, and only posted again to ask what happened in the end of this thing. <P>I have responded to her past posts in love, and she has responded to mine in kind. She is not a bad person, just a VERY VERY hurt person. I do not condone the hatred, but I hurt for her. Therefore, I would not want to add to her pain. <P>I guess I'm just wondering where you're coming from here...<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR>

Hi, all,<P>One quick thing to clear up - Whodat is a man, not a woman! (& yup, he's pretty intelligent... but well-known around here for his *outspokenness* ). <P>My guess is that having been the repentant betrayer less than a year ago, he is passionate about getting his message across... that a marriage hurt by infidelity can be not only salvaged, but made to thrive... and he knows his own probably wouldn't have made it without the strength and love and eventual forgiveness of his wife... and doesn't want to see TL lose her chance to rescue her marriage, because frankly, her H is incapacitated right now.<P><BR>And maybe TL's situation is hitting a *little* close to home for Whodat (as it does for many of us former betrayers, I'm sure), as he knows he & his W dodged a bullet, and he'd fervently like to help someone else dodge that same bullet. <P>(OK, Whodat, how'd I do? Was that a Suse answer, or some strange hybrid?)<P>TL, I've been following your story but haven't posted yet. All of us can understand your utter devastation and anger... but the fact of the matter is that to save your marriage, the onus is on you right now to give your H some reason to stay and work. This is a long process with definite steps. The FIRST step is to give your H *any* inkling of a reason to believe that there might be something worth saving. Unfair, I know; challenging, I know (for what it's worth, one of the last steps is the betrayer coming to a realization of what a lame-brained, delusional thing he has done; what he has almost lost forever; and *deep* guilt and self-disgust that must be worked through).<P>Please read EVERYTHING on this website, and everything you can get your hands on, about the causes of and remedies for infidelity. Talk to your doctor about possibly getting on anti-depressants - depression is a very common after-effect of infidelity (for both betrayed *and* betrayer), and can lead to extreme anger and irritability as well as general pessimism (not a great state to be in when trying to save a marriage, huh?).<P>Everyone here is trying to convey their hard-won knowledge to you, and they know that there may be a 'window of opportunity' for you that will close quickly, if your H is constantly blasted with disdain and anger -- which as you've learned, is a good way to send him running out of the house and maybe even back to Mia.<P>TL, I know that it is very hard for you to muster any compassion for Mia, but I do have to say that I couldn't help feeling sorry when I read that her H had died... she has been through cataclysmic, life-altering grief; and made some very bad choices, and wronged you, in the course of her own pain... which she appears to be fully aware of and is trying to rectify as best she can... please understand that she despises herself every bit as much as you despise her - I know this as a former betrayer.<P>You must find a way to soften a very hard heart, and understand that humans are capable of doing terrible things in the grip of emotional pain - this goes for your H as well as Mia.<P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

Sheryl:<P>LOL... First of all, although a die-hard incurable romantic who will NEVER get enough sheer non-sexual affection and conversation, I am a man. <P>Second, my only real motivation is to help dispel the hate. I see TL as someone who IS tired, and basically at the end of her rope. But giving in to hatred is NOT the way to save her marriage. There are a few posters here who caress their hate more fondly than they ever caressed their spouses, and to tell the truth, it makes me sick. TL looked to me like someone not quite that far gone, but close. I was just hoping I could show her how futile the hate is.<P>*shrug*<P>That's pretty much it. But one more thing to those who cheered her on... there may well have been a time to make that call (and maybe not), but when her H was still in the depths of withdrawal was definitely <B>NOT</B> that time. She couldn't have done a worse LoveBuster at this particular time than to drive Mia to pick up the phone, if she truly had been letting it ring before.<BR><P>------------------<BR>No marriage was ever healed by the judicious application of hatred.

Suse:<P>Pretty good. <P>Especially the "dodging a bullet" part. It's scary how close I came to losing everything that was precious, as well as things that would be.<BR><P>------------------<BR>No marriage was ever healed by the judicious application of hatred.

WhoDat,<BR>I would agree with you. I tried to appeal to her Christian up bringing. I know her rage but she has taken it to the extreme. I can only pray that God will soften her heart. She wants to get revenge when that is God's responisbility to pay back. She can't see the blessings that He has bestowed upon her. I only wish that the OMen would have done what Mia has done for her and left. <P>I said a special prayer for EVERYONE here today. God will clear all this mess for ALL of us to include TL. MONDO HUG TL. MONDO HUG to you ALL.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Hi Tired Lady -<P>I did not forget you....I have been hard at work on you today!!!!<P>I printed all your posts, reviewed them and now have some questions that I need you to answer in order to make this letter as accurate and personal as possible. Some of what I ask or say might seem harsh, but it is not meant to be...I am merely looking at the facts of what you have stated about your marriage and these need to be addressed so that H will respond to this attempt at communication and progression of the current state of the marriage... <P>READY!!!! Here we go....<P>1) Why do you think things within the marriage changed at least ten years ago?<BR>Was there any event, sickness, stress, etc. that took place at that time?<BR>---I ask because you stated that you have not seen affection, emotions, loving, etc. from him in at least that long.<P>2) You have stated over and over that you were not a very good wife....can you tell me why? Do you feel that your behavior changed from earlier years or were you always not so inclined? IF changed, do you know what made that change?<P>3) Why did you not want to go to counseling or address issues when your H brought them up over and over throughout the years?<P>4) Are all the things that you say you did not provide H with throughout the years something that you are willing to start doing and being conscious of?<P>5) Are you willing to get a job with a more stable income than the current one you have?<P>6) Why do you feel you have had the weight gain? Is it symptomatic of stress or emotions through the years or is it simply (like a lot of us) a natural progression of age and neglect of our bodies? Is it something that you want to improve upon to make yourself feel better and healthier?<P>7) When you were both in counseling..you report that you did most of the talking, sounded like you just were concerned with your own feelings and wants and did not care to hear anything about H's ..is this the case? If not, why did H not say much....the counselor should have been able to draw him out? I am confused on this.....<P>8) It seems that since the affair, you say that you have been trying and doing all the work ....what EXACTLY have you been doing? <P>9) You have stated that you are a B*@*h most of the time since affair and can you change that into showing your H the woman that he fell in love with and married? Or at least a Friend Again? <BR>---I ask because WHY would he want to be affectionate, etc. with a B*@*h?<P>10) What would you like from Him as far as showing that he is working on the marriage?<P>These should be answered as HONESTLY as you possibly can....if you don't know or aren't sure - then say so and what might help you become sure.<P>TL - This letter CAN be a fresh outlook starting place for you and H....if you are willing to look at and do what you need to to make H feel wanted by you. From reading your posts, it seemed that he was not very needed or wanted for a very long time....he even tried to communicate that to you quite a bit.<P>Hence, OW enters the picture...she shows some concern and attention to him - everyone NEEDS to feel wanted and appreciated and most of all loved and valued.....he did not feel that for a long time with you.<P>Now you are in his position, with the added hell of there being competition.<P>He had competition also, only in the form of your friends, activities, money spending, etc. Perhaps this caused such pain and hurt to him that he could have felt the same as you do now...<P>Your heart was not with him then....just as his heart is not with you now!!!<P>You might not think of things this way right now, but in the reality of the marriage - your H was very loyal through many years..you have admitted all you did not give.. and I think that he has morals and values. It was only at some "breaking" point in his mind due to lack of love and affection from you that he opened himself to receive it elsewhere.<P>That is also why I think that he will not touch you or show you affection!! In his mind, with the morals he has, he can only "love" or be monogomous to one woman. You have the definite advantage of being that woman again/still for two reasons: <P> 1. You are his WIFE and his love for you was proven by his sticking by you through all the years that you did not (through your own admittance) return the kind of love and attention required. <BR> <BR> 2. His feelings for OW came from lonliness and pain originally and led to lies and fantasy....and now it's time for reality once again. Time to get those feeling of love back in your direction...<P>With you showing him that he is wanted, needed and loved - he will not take too long to choose you and his children..but he MUST be made to feel a part of you and your life...not just your verbal punching bag.<P>THAT is the way to get OW out of his mind......that is what we will start with this letter.<P>When you reply, I'll take what you've answered and apply it and then post an outline for you, OK?<P>We can do this!!!!! <P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Tired Lady -<P>If anyone's presence disturbs you - use my EMail......nothing or noone will deter us from doing this!!!!!<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

Sheba:<P>I will email you my responses tomorrow. I'm too tired to think about all this right now and the answers would be way too personal. I'll write you tomorrow.<P>Thank you again.<P>

TL...<P>I've been thinking about you. Did your H ever come home? I'm so glad that you will be writing that letter to H and that Sheba is helping you. She has a wonderful way of explaining things.<P>Good luck on this and keep us updated....

Wow- this post is getting too long. TL -- please start a new one! <P>My thoughts. I rarely get in the middle of squabbles, but WhoDat, you went too far. We've all made mistakes, and being betrayed has brought out a capacity for rage and irrationality that I never knew existed. Does that mean we all 'got what we deserved'? Maybe your statement hurts so much because deep down I fear it might be true. Nevertheless, its cruel. Nuff said.<P>TL- Here's my thoughts on why you did what you did. You are committing marriage suicide. Why does someone commit suicide? Because they are hurting soooooo much and it seems the only way to communicate their pain. No amount of berating the OW is ever going to make the pain go away. The real recipient of the message was your husband. You need him to acknowledge how much you are hurting. If he would do that, I'll bet your need to inflict pain on the OW would go away. You are hurting so much that you are even willing to sacrifice your marriage in order to communicate your pain. <P>Unfortunately, I don't have any answers for you. Try to imagine the OW as a cockroach who is not worthy of your attention. It helped me to realize that I would not trade places with her. <P>But I stepped over the line as well. If you read my recent posts, you know that I told my H's boss (and her boss) of their affair a few weeks ago. I just snapped. <P>Keep in mind that if this is the straw that breaks the camels back the back was close to breaking anyway. Don't beat yourself up over it. Sometimes I think this Harley stuff is awfully damaging to the betrayed spouse -- so much emphasis on what we did wrong in the marriage and what we need to do to fix it. Well, even if you do everything right it may not be enough. Are we to walk around forever feeling like marriage failures? <P>You need to get Mia out of your life. This is your H's responsibility. Together you guys need to come up with a plan to do so. Maybe it can't happen right away -- maybe it involves him changing jobs in 6 months or so. But having a plan (that you both agree on) with help you move forward. <P>Awhile ago I would have envied your situation. I believed that we could work miricles if my H would just come home -- even if it was 'just for the kids'. Now I'm not so sure. <P>But think long and hard about what you want. Maybe you don't really want the marriage under these circumstances. But if you want it to succeed, don't squander the chance you have been given. <P>You might really be helped by the book 'DivorceBusting' and the web site (www.divorcebusting.com). The focus is on recognizing what works and what doesn't work and changing the patterns that aren't working. <P>If coming here to vent helps you control the anger, by all means come here. Ignore those who call you hateful. What we feel for the OP is HATE. That doesn't make me a hateful person, just an honest one. And Christians are supposed to leave the judging to God, so ignore them, too. Several months ago we had a post on all the mean, nasty, rotten things we wanted to do to the OWs. Some people were offended (as always!), but I thought it was great. After all, we are all thinking these things. Sharing it helped us all find the humor in the situation. <P>I understand that you will NEVER forgive the OW. But I pray that your soul will find peace. <p>[This message has been edited by Animac (edited October 17, 1999).]

NoTrust: No, he didn't come back. Found out that he's been at his sister's house. (No thanks to her. She's very tight lipped - protecting her brother, I guess.) I will let everyone know in a followup post after Sheba helps with my letter.<P>Animac: Thanks for your reply. I for one am amazed at how many responses to this I have gotten. Over a crazy phone call the the OW! Seems strange, but I'm grateful for all the input.<P>You are all right. I don't know if I want this marriage or not. I tend to lean on the side of I don't. Sad, but true.

Tired Lady: I feel really bad for you, my heart goes out to you. Just like me, you have had it with H and other W. However, I have come at a cross road today. I have decided that there is nothing I can do to stop them, if they decide to continue seeing each other. I have personally confronted her<BR>and told her to stop "f...ing" my husband, she denied she was doing it. I also told her that she can't have him all to herself because I will continue to make love to my husband whether she is in the picture or not because I love him and will never give him up. As she continued to deny I assured her that she was not dealing with a stupid person and that God finally made me see the light. God also made this meeting happen, quite accidentally, in front of a store, on the worse day of my life and I needed to vent to her as I was not going to be polite knowing <BR>what has been going on. It is not bad to confront, it is one way for us to deal, head-on with the problem. I don't think she cared very much about my anger because she will continue to do what she wants with my husband, and my husband will continue to do what he wants with her, as long as are able to sneak around behind my back. I wanted to talk to her again, after this initial confrontation, but because I threatned to beat the s--- out of her, my H is keeping an eye on me and does not want me to appear at the place of employment while she is still working there. She is leaving on Oct. 30th.<BR>Today is his and her day off. I am trying not to think about the two of them spending time together, but I know that they will see each other today, I have no proof of that, but I know my H and I know that she will not give him up so easily. Will I go crazy about this ? I am going to stop, be strong and not drive myself crazy. We made love this morning, it was simply beautiful. My goal is to make our lovemaking more beautiful and meaningful to him that it is with OW, I am hoping that he will no longer have the need to go to her. Unlike so many others on this board, I am lucky that although I suspect they are continuing, he does not want to separate, divorce or give me up. He has changed his attitude towards me, he treats me so much better, he is nice to me, he wants to do things with me and the kids, he is a different man, yet at the same time, he is still not willing to give her up. I have to be patient and so do you. Being nasty to the OW and to keep on fighting with H is not good because he will just keep going to her and she will bank the love points. Its taking me weeks to realize this. For example, as we were making love this morning I told him I loved him, he told me he loves me too, I told him he is the only man for me and he told me <BR>he feels the same way about me. Friends have told me that "he wants the cake and wants to eat it too", this may be true, but how many <BR>years can she go on with a relatioship where she only sees him once a week, since he has no intention of ever giving me up ? One of them has to get tired of this. She is only <BR>39. Have a bright day, do something to lift your spirits