Myrev, I know you weren't posting to me, but I do have a question for you.

I don't disagree with taking action, I just don't see how you conclude that its either "immediate and decisive" action or doormat status. Even in your situation your FWW made attempts to break NC (I believe she even set up a secret e-mail account). So, obviously you gave your FWW some time to comply before you went to plan B or D and you did not become a doormat. Is it that you don't think other BH's are capable of doing the same thing?

Yes, what you describe occurred. My D-Day was 7/25/07 at about 8:30pm ... NC was established by 3 way phone call with OM, WW and Me at about 9:00am on 7/26/07. WW broke NC on 7/27/07 with a text seeking "closure", and again on 7/30/07 by setting up a secret hotmail account with only one message sent.

Neither the text nor the email was responded to by OM ... I believe it was because of my phone confrontation with OM who knew that I had the proof, ability and willingness to blow up his world. However, I didn't find out about either attempted contact until FF confessed about the text on about 8/26/07, and I found the hotmail account through continued snooping on 9/5/07.

So there was NO "doormat" status for me as I was unaware of the attempted contact until one month later and FF and our MC will attest that it nearly took us directly to Plan D at that time. At no time did I "give" her time to comply ... in all instances, once I was aware of the conduct, I set definitive boundaries.

In my case, immediate and decisive ACTION with OM and WW saved my M, PERIOD.

A man simply has to be able to look at himself in the mirror, and everyone's tolerance for disrespect is different, but my own sense of pride would have never allowed me to remain in limbo for even a very short period of time, while the love of my life continued her A with OM.

Her continuing the A after D-Day would have simply been a deal-breaker for me, and I truly believe most BH's would be better off if they developed the same philosophy.

I don't disagree. But your willingness to give FF another chance on 09/05/07 or thereabouts also saved your M. Maybe you don't count that, but I don't see how you could say that she was committed to recovery prior to that point. I mean I'm sure the txt message and e-mail were a boundary on 07/26/07. And I don't think you giving her another chance means you were a doormat. Are you saying you do?

That was the point of my question. I think a BH should take action, I just don't think that if a WW doesn't immediately comply you are left with divorce or doormat for the BH. Sometimes it seems like that is what you are saying. If it is, then it appears inconsistent with your results as you are neither a doormat or divorced. Or perhaps you feel you handled it wrong and others should do something different. Or perhaps you don't think other BH's are capable of doing the same thing you did (i.e. you feel that if another BH allowed a boundary to be crossed, they would not be capable of re-establishing that boundary).

I'm not asking the question to get you to change your mind. I mean why would I care to change your mind about it. I was just curious if that is what you are saying.

FWIW, I don't think our opinions differ all that much. I cringe when I see a BH post that his WW is rubbing his nose in the A and the advice he gets is to try harder at meeting her EN's. Perhaps I just have a different definition of what rubbing someone's nose in the A looks like.

rprynne,

Have you been taking night classes at the "MEDC School of Creating Arguments"???

Seriously, the 9/5/07 Hotmail Account discovery very nearly put us in divorce court.

I wound up eventually quitting MC, but at that point our MC was still providing some value, and between his words and FF's apologies, remourse and repentance we worked through it. Also, at that point of discovery, we had an additional 5 weeks of R, where FF had established her renewed committment to US.

However, in retrospect, I do see a HUGE difference in an unsuccessful last ditch attempt at closure as opposed to a WW actively remaining in an adulterous relationship AFTER her BH is aware of the PA. One is just another single lapse in judgment ... the other is blatant disrespect of the worst form that I couldn't/wouldn't tolerate.

LOL. Maybe so. I really do try to avoid argueing here.

MyRev,

You said
I read this and realized something. I think some of what you perceive as us looking at things differently, is really embodied in this quote of yours. Not only do I agree with it, but I endorse it. What you don't realize MyRev is that you were doubly blessed in your situation.

1. You knew what you could or could not live with. That was/is a blessing. It is a much greater one than you realize.

2. You were blessed with having a W that was in fact very decisive in who/what she truly wanted in her life, or she might have really stuttered on your response and lost you.

Where I come into this is that I feel #1 is a blessing that you may not realize many people don't have. It is not being about being a man. It isn't even about pride really. It is about knowing what you are willing to lose to gain something else... in detail. You know that.

Most that come here do not. They have to find for themselves what they can tolerate and if the price of this tolerance is worth the price. This is often a process that takes awhile. And really that is what Harley is actually offering. A plan or plans that allow people do decide what they can live with and what they cannot. What they can receive vs. what it will cost.

It is not stated this way, but when you look at it all it comes to this. If this were a save the marriage at all costs sight it would not be about cost vs. gain. It really is.

I think that is why our approaches seem different but probably are not. Eventually, all have to come to what you KNEW. Is the cost worth what I get. Those that do not, just mush along with whatever situation comes up (divorce or continued marriage).

I'm reminded of...OH heck you don't need another shaggy dog story.

My only caution was and is, remember many have not been as blessed with your knowledge of yourself. The process here brings them to it as they explore all of the plans, the needs issues, etc. Most do get there, and then either divorce or make better marriages via recovery.

I just thought your statement was interesting and really right on the mark. Just remember YOU have been blessed more than you realize.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Thanks for the insight. The more that I'm around this site, the more I see how individual personalities are a huge factor in how effectively the Plan's are executed.

Strangely enough, when I first came to MB and was trying to figure out what was going on, I posted about how it looked like the Plan's should be different for different personality types and was jumped on very quickly by a lot of the board "vets" for questioning Dr. Harley.

After I've been here for a year now, I think I may have revised that theory somewhat and now feel that Respect/Pride/Self-Esteem (whatever you want to call it) should probably be an EN of its own, because that could be a quick indentifier for how a BS will react upon discovery or how quickly a WS will acknowledge their mistakes and possibly recommit to the M.

Obviously there is much more to this than I can post about at this time, but if I'm reading you correctly, then hopefully this will describe my impressions and also how some BH's can be more effectively counselled. This really isn't "one size fits all", but it is often presented that way, and I've been guilty of that myself by trying to get BH's to "man up" when they clearly didn't have the fortitude to do so.

MyRev,

I believe you are dead on. This is really not one size fits all. If it were there would be no need for questionaires. There would be no need for "radical honesty", there would be no need for negotiations, POJA. There would be no need for plan B. And clearly all marriages would make it.

There is a process here that fits all. I often view this like finding yourself in a deep hole.

1. Put the shovel down and quit digging.

2. Find out how deep the hole is?

3. Find out if anyone can help you out?

4. What do you have that might get you out?

I think MB is far more subtle than people realize. It also realizes that human reactions to the same thing are at zeroth level pretty much all of us react the same.

Sort of like putting ones hand in a flame. We will all jerk it out if we can. Some have higher tolerances for pain, some sweat more so can handle more, some have enough callouses that they can handle more, but eventually the flame wins.

I would have never believed the commonality I see in how WS's state their cases to the BS. It still blows my mind, it really is like a script. So given that the opening gambit should be pretty much the same, but from there the game adds continual complexity.

Yeah, "man up", I have been guilty of even telling women on this site that, or at least in "politically correct terms" . Ultimately, one cannot make ANY plan work if fear is your great motivator. If you read carefully, almost no BS really gets into real work on the A or recovery until they admit they are willing to lose it all (meaning the marriage and the person they are married to). Exposure comes to mind. Harley is big on it, most are not, why? Well, because it is hard, it requires overcoming fear, and you do run the risk of losing the one you love. But, in their fear they don't see the risk of losing is actually bigger if you don't expose the affair.

Personally, I view alot of the "talking" that goes on here by the ones that have actually read Harley's materials as having the goal of getting the BS to the point of action coupled with a plan to acheive their goals. I believe it was Pepperband that first posted on this site the following question I always thought the put the correct light on this site. Get people to where they are not afraid.

So you see why I posted the response to your statement. I think you are more in line with the guiding principles of this place than you realize. It is just that people fear losing what they know they can lose more than they relish gaining an uncertain future. Yet, what they can gain is often much greater than what they could lose.

As I said before you came to this realization quickly, and it allowed you to do what you did very successfully. It actually saved you and FF a lot of further pain, not that your recovery was painfree by any standard. Others have to go through the pain of finding themselves, facing their fears, and then gradually standing up.

I know I am going to sound a bit odd here. But, I love watching and participating in getting people to learn enough about themselves to stand up and THEN make the important decisions. It is in my mind really cool. Perhaps it is the old "coach" in me. I loved coaching and watching kids work, gain confidence in themselves and then succeed. I guess I love "coaching" people to the place you naturally found yourself from the start.

God Bless,

JL

JustLearning,

Sorry, but I need to seek out your counsel again.

You know our situation, and things have been going along very well, but we hit a dip in the rollercoaster last night/this morning. FogFree is coming home ... actually in the air as I type ... from a 2 night business trip to Tampa. Recently I have really bragged on her here at MB for the level of extraordinary precautions she has put in place to ease my anxieties when she travels, but last night I feel she "dropped the ball" and she thinks I've overreacted, and I'd like your thoughts.

As some background, FogFree had numerous conversations yesterday during their meeting with a Big Corporate Vice President (BCVP), who has a known history of at least one long term affair with another co-worker at this same company. At the company dinner last night, BCVP apparently made quite a speech from the podium praising FogFree for her work and 20 years of service to the Company. The rest of the details, and how I perceived them, are probably best described in an email I sent to her after a very cool conversation with her this morning:

To: FogFree
From: MyRevelation
Subject: Red Flags Over Florida

FogFree,

As you can probably guess I am VERY distressed over the events of yesterday. In the past year, you have put in a lot of extra effort to provide me with some extraordinary precautions to protect me and ease my anxiety when you travel, but you threw most of that effort away last night. Once again, you are saying the right words, but your actions give away your true priorities.

After the conversation we had yesterday afternoon, you HAD TO KNOW just how down I was and how vulnerable I felt. When this conversation ended around 5:45pm you stated tearfully, “I’m just going down to get a bite, and I’ll be back in the room by 8:00 … 8:30, probably closer to 8:00 and I’ll call”. Then at about 6:20pm you called to say that your phone battery was low and you were going to leave it in the room to charge “Red Flag”. Then you don’t call until 9:00 “Red Flag”. During that call, you don’t want to tell me what happened at the dinner “Red Flag”, but then say that BCVP praised you publicly, which wouldn’t normally have been a red flag, but because of the context of what you described during the first part of the day plus your evasion of the subject, sent “Red Flags” flying high, especially since you seemed to be much more upbeat after the dinner.

Here’s how I see all of this:

- You told me that you sit right in front of BCVP all day and mentioned SEVERAL conversations with him.
- You know that I know that BCVP has a history of long term affairs with co-workers.
- You KNOW how distraught I was yesterday afternoon over this whole meeting.
- You leave your phone in the room.
- Your promised call comes in basically an hour late.
- You are evasive about the public acclimation that you received FROM BCVP.
- You are upbeat in general, but distant and short with me during our conversations of last night and this morning.

If you were in my shoes, how would you connect these dots???

You see, FF, you are supposed to be protecting me with extraordinary precautions, but instead you INCREASED my anxiety 10 fold by your ACTIONS. I thought we were past a lot of this, but obviously I WAS VERY MISTAKEN … you obviously still have a huge EN of admiration that you continue to seek from OTHER MEN, and I simply CAN’T continue like this as you are falling back into a familiar pattern of putting that D@MN job and the NEEDS OF FF ahead of our marriage.

- There was NO REASON for you to spend 2 ½ hours at dinner last night.
- It is not acceptable to me for you to continue to seek to have your EN’s met by OTHER MEN.
- Whether you realize it or not … I think you do, but won’t admit it to me … you were HIT ON all day yesterday by BCVP.
- It is not acceptable to me for you to withhold information about what occurs when I’m not present, which just indicates that you KNEW you were stepping over the line and were simply trying to hide your tracks.
- I have a huge doubt about whether you maintained your 2 drink maximum EP given the length of time you spent at the dinner (or elsewhere).
- I have a HUGE doubt about the content and context of your interactions with BCVP.
- I have concerns about what occurred during that extra time at dinner that distracted you from calling me as promised (I would have thought prior to last night that MY FEELINGS were a priority for you), plus I have further concerns about what occurred after we last spoke last night, given our cool phone exchanges of last night and this morning.

Why do the compliments of others continue to validate you more than the ones from me?

FogFree, I simply refuse to live the rest of my life wondering when the next guy is going to compliment you right out of your clothes.

MR

As I re-read this, I see where I engaged in some DJ's, which I should have curbed, but I was upset and you might as well see the good, the bad and the ugly to get the entire picture.

FogFree claims that nothing went on ... that BCVP did not "hit on" her, but does concede that it would look that way from my perspective, given our history. You see, FF's A started when a smooth talking "player" type started chatting her up and filling her full of compliments during a "girls only" vacation last summer, and she has always "fished" for compliments from others, while disregarding the same type comments from me.

Anyway, we've spoken by phone several times today, and she seems genuinely concerned and worried that I am so upset over this. I am leaving work early to be home when she arrives, which should be within the next two hours.

In general, I'd like your insight on this episode and guideance on how you think I should proceed.

MyRev,

I'll offer you my quick take as I am about to head out for a meeting. First, I understand your concern. Especially, with the cell phone. I also understand you see similar behaviors and are triggered.

But, I think you do want your W to be successful. You do want men and women to appreciate her abilities...in an appropriate manner. I am gathering this dinner was with other people present. I am gathering that BCVP's praise were warrented and for REAL accomplishments rather than making something up so that he could "butter her up."

I can speak from experience a dinner of 2 1/2 hours is not unusual in a corporate setting, what with speeches, dinner, dessert, and conversation with colleages after dinner. That is why they hold these things.

I know you fear she will have another affair. Given what I know of you two, I doubt that especially with a man she KNOWS is a womanizer. MyRev, I would say you should trust her more. But, what I think you should do is trust yourself more.

Your W does not need to be married to you. She doesn't need your income, she can find praise from her work. She has a successful career as do you. So why is she still married to you? She could have left after her last affair, you surely gave her the chance, but she did not. I think the reason she did not is because to her YOU are someone very very special and I don't think you really trust that this is true.

You cannot control her, and you cannot prevent another affair if she decided to have one. You fear her having one, but the data indicates you ARE HER CHOICE. You need to trust that. Now don't start getting "cocky" with me here. but you are special.

I think your plan to handle the triggers, contact while she travels is a good one. However, I think you are caught in your own web sort of. If you have a very strict reporting schedule, then normal changes in events will trigger you when they should not. It also makes your W defensive. Sometimes it is better to allow more play in the system because it means less strain on you. If battery life is a problem, buy her another battery for her phone, so that she can swap them out, IF the phone won't lose its data.

MrRev, congratulate her on her accolades, she earned them. Discuss the triggers and how best to address them in the future. But, my guess is leaving a little slack or even using a quick text message is a better way to avoid your own triggers.

She deals in a male world and you cannot protect her from them. But, I believe she has learned how to protect herself and that is a far better way to address this.

I don't know if I have helped or not. Let me know if I raised more questions than I answered.

God Bless,

JL

MyRev,

Sorry to hear about this...and No, I don't think you "over-reacted". I don't have any advice but I did want to bump this up so JL or someone more experienced can help you....

not2fun

JL,

Sorry, I didn't see your post until this morning, AFTER we worked through these issues on our own. The GREAT thing about this site is that it has given us a common language that we can discuss these tricky relationship issues from a point of common understanding ... in other words, what she says is what I hear and vice versa ... without those misunderstandings about what we "meant".

However, it was good to see your response was pretty close to how we defined this episode for ourselves. Thanks for the 2nd opinion/confirmation.

With the clarity of a good nights sleep ... Thanks FF ... it was obvious that I experienced a pretty severe and extended trigger episode due to the similarities to the A scenario. FF remains very naive about the intentions of other men that she encounters, especially those in a business trip setting.


After learning more of the entire situation, it is my "best guess" that BCVP got wind of some corporate grapevine gossip (either started by toxic BF or FF's supervisor that she confessed her A to in order to curtail her overnight travel) about FF and was "checking out the waters" for himself at this meeting.

No doubt the accolades FF received were earned and well deserved. However, FF has known BCVP for her entire 20+ year career and his level of attention towards her during this meeting was out of the ordinary. FF now has a better understanding and has agreed to view every male she encounters in a more cynical light, at least initially.

I unfortunately fully understand the corporate world, as I have spent 15 of my 27 years in finance as a VP Commercial Lending for two of the top 10 largest banks in the country prior to leaving that clusterf#$% of a life behind over 6 years ago to return to a MUCH smaller organization that allows much more freedom and personal satisfaction.

The good news is that after our discussion last night, I think FF is ready to explore some similar opportunities in her field where she can buy into an ownership/management position at a smaller local company.

In that regards, we have the luxury of some fortunate timing. She only has one 2 night trip scheduled for the remainder of the year as we have an extended vacation planned for the first part of October and then FF will be recuperating the remainder of the year from a surgery that's scheduled for the first week of November, so she will not have to travel much in the near future and will have time to explore these other options.


Thanks for the vote of confidence, but FF beat you to it. She did an amazing job of quieting my concerns, once she got home, by reaffirming my status with her through words and deeds.

Since the A, we've just not done well apart at times, but fortunately we are GREAT together and luckily we really enjoy each others company and spend a great deal of free time together either on chores or just relaxing.

Thanks again for your wisdom and support ... I may have "panicked" unnecessarily this time, and need to learn to extend FF a little more leeway, as she has earned that much. Hopefully some of these other career paths may pan out for the best for all concerned, and we can avoid altogether these unnecessary overnight travel ordeals.

MyRev - If the matter is closed and you don't want to discuss it, I understand, but I was curious about this statement.


Does FF think she is naive about this?

In my own situation, I have been perplexed about this. At one time, I felt the same way about my (F)WW. But over time, I have changed this into feeling that my (F)WW is not naive about other men's intentions, she is very naive about her ability to "resist" the intentions of other men.

I can't count the number of times when my (F)WW has done similar things and then attempts to soothe my anxiety with a statement about how nothing was going on. But my anxiety is not so much about suspecting something was going on, its about the fact that the only reason something was not going on is because of her "willpower", so to speak. I am too close in time to having direct evidence that her "willpower" is an inadequate protection.

When my (F)WW is out of town, I feel like I am playing russian roulette. Perhaps I was playing that all along, but on d-day, I found out that there is definately a bullet in the chamber. A concept I would not have believed prior to d-day. For me, there is no relief, when the trigger is pulled and the gun goes "click". Relief will only come when I am not playing russion roulette anymore. Perhaps, one day, I could be convinced there is no bullet in the chamber, but for now, not playing is the best I can do.

rprynne,

I'm not sure I grasp your point, but I'll try and if this is one of those times where you and I just don't communicate very well in this type of format, just clarify for me and we'll go from there.

If I'm reading you right, I believe that we are dealing with both of the scenarios that you describe.

FogFree will agree that she is naive about the intentions of other men. As an example, she still states that in 20 years of working for this company and literally hundreds, maybe thousands of nights spent away from home that she has NEVER been "hit on" by a co-worker or customer. Now from my experiences, this just seems WAAAAYYYY out of the realm of possibility, especially given her looks and outgoing personality.

However, she was the classic "good girl" that grew up in a VERY sheltered environment, so it is possible that she simply hasn't picked up on the advances of other men due to inexperience.

On the other hand, it could be that she may have picked up on their initial advances and prior to the one time that she slipped up, she just unconsciously redirected the conversations back to a more innocent topic ... what you describe as "willpower", but that provides little comfort.

Now as for the time that she did slip up ... I still scratch my head over what could have happened, as this guy was such an OBVIOUS slime ball, and completely outside of her normal tastes, but he was an accomplished "player", and there is still the very real possibility (that was brought up by our MC given the profile) of him being a POWER RAPIST (google it sometime ... the name doesn't really describe the act very well, but its bizarre and fascinating, although very sick) that used some type of "date rape" drug that can be bought over the counter in Mexico, but I'd rather not plow that ground again, so if anyone is interested in that aspect please just review our threads from about this time last year.

I'm still not sure if I answered your post in the context you were asking, but thanks for your concern regardless.

MyRev,

Glad to see you two worked through this bump in the road. As a BH, I can easily see how the circumstances you were faced with were very triggering. To be honest, I don't know that there is anyway I could take overnight travel as part of my M. In 13 years, LaLa and I haven't spent more than 15 days apart. All of my worst times come when LaLa and I are apart. Specifically, when we are apart and I'm alone with my thoughts. So I can't imagine what it is like for you to deal with FF's travel and the similarities to how your situation took place. Plus with your knowledge of just how sleazy men can be in the corporate conference setting. Workplace A's aren't a cliché for nothing. It's so frustrating that things we once accepted pre a become such difficult events post a.

I have to agree with JL though, that there is no way you can protect FF from another A. That part of recovery is up to her and you have to trust her to do so. Trust is such a difficult thing to regain after experiencing an A though. Over time, it is earned back little by little, but unfortunately, I think there may always be that little sliver of doubt that you cannot give 100% trust again. It's that little sliver of doubt can get the best of us under the right circumstances. I would have bet my life that there was no way in a million years that LaLa would ever do this to me or our M, yet here we are. There is such an emptiness in coming to that realization. We know all too well what can happen and that things don't necessarily have to be that bad for them to happen. I think though in your heart you believe as I that FF or LaLa will not have another A. You believe what happened was just horrible choices and mistakes by our FWW's(I hate labels). So, it's not really an issue of not trusting our FWW's as it is more of an issue of being reminded of what took place in the past to bring us to this point. Like I told NoName2, letting the past be the past can be VERY FREAKING difficult.


That is GREAT news! I really believe it would be the best for your M and it is what Dr. Harley would suggest also. He recommends NO overnight travel while recovering from an A. Something I wanted to throw out there that you and FF may not have ever considered is that with the extensive business experience you two share maybe you could look into the possibility of starting or buying a business together. Something that would energize both of you. Like you said, you are GREAT together so why not explore taking that to the next level. Just a thought...


I don't think you panicked unnecessarily, but more reacted too quickly to the situation. I know...not easy in the heat of the moment when triggered. What I'm trying to do in those moments, is to try and ride them out and see if LaLa takes the initiative to reassure me on her own out of love and care for me, not because of any reaction I had. I think FF was well aware of the mistakes she had made due to the phone conversations and things may have played out exactly the same when she returned had you allowed her the opportunity to make the effort. If not and it was still bothering you, that would be the time to express your concern. I think what you will find MyRev is that it has so much more impact on your recovery when she reassures you of her own free will rather than a reaction you had to a situation.

Hope some of this helps. Hang in there and keep the faith.....

Want2Stay

SOOOOOOOOO True ...


W2S,

You are really on your game today, as its like you are seeing right into my soul, but then again, you've lived this nightmare too.

Thanks so much for the support.


We have considered this, but we live in a very depressed and backward part of Appalachia (we actually live in a dry county) that has very little economic opportunities, and since we were both raised here and have aging parents, our opportunities to relocate are limited, but viable entrepreneurial opportunities arise every now and then and we are definately open to those. Now that we have the motivation, who knows what may turn up in the not too distant future.


Very wise counsel ... I definately need to exercise more patience at times, and give FF the opportunity to make those unsolicited efforts, but as I'm sure you have experienced, feelings of fear or panic don't lend themselves well to patience, but its worth keeping in mind and trying to do better in that regard.

Thanks again ... a little over a year ago, I would have never thought that so many anonymous people would be ABLE to help me through a crisis, and also be WILLING to reach out to those who share a common bond.

MyRev,

It sounds as if things worked out well. I'm glad. Say Hi! to FF for me.

God Bless,

JL

That may be the shortest post you've ever made to me ... I'll take that as a positive sign that we're making progress.

Again, THANK YOU so much for everything you've done for us. FogFree and I often discuss your insights, when we're relaxing on the deck at the end of the day, so I'll be sure to pass your greetings on to her, if she hasn't already read them herself. FF has a very interesting theory about your participation on these forums ... possibly you'll get her to share it with you one day.

MyRev,

I look forward to hearing FF's theory. I expect I will learn something very importat.

JL