If you were my daughter, I would tell you this. You might even want to do it in a letter (but not necessarily a Plan B letter yet.)

Dear Husband,

First, I love you and you know that. I have forgiven myself and choose to move on with our life. I will no longer feel guilty. I won't engage in any more conversations with you about the past. What's done is done. I won't live this way. If you wish to build a better marriage, then let's start today with a clean slate.

And then, the next time he brings it up. You walk away. Take a walk, go to the mall, whatever. If that doesn't work, then I'd say he's not interested in a better marriage.

OK, here it is!!! The much promised and long awaited plan B letter.

I know it needs some work still. Its a little long winded and repetitive (who, me, long winded?!?!), and I am not quite satisfied with the 2nd to last paragraph (my conditions for returning home)-- its too "wishy-washy", and it doesn't seem to "flow" very well (this is probably because I actually wrote THREE plan B letters, then copied and pasted them together to make this one...) But I figured I'd post my draft here, and let some of you see it and see what your opinions are.

H,

When I married you 3 years ago, I would have never thought our marriage would be where it is today, ever. I long to have the deep emotional connection and be able to establish a strong, solid foundation for our marriage, where we are each other's biggest supporters and best friends, and most important thing in each other's lives. I long for my best friend and heart and soul to return-- somewhere along the way we lost each other, and lost what was most important.

It breaks my heart to continue to watch the destruction of our marriage take place because both of us are not invested, committed and taking responsibility for our actions in the past and present. I cannot continue putting forth effort into this marriage without a commitment to work on this from you-- it is far too painful. I have tossed my heart and soul into fixing my mistakes and trying to save our marriage. I truly believe deep in my heart that we can indeed make this the marriage that we both dream of. I know that deep in our hearts, all of the elements are there—that we are perfect for each other-- its a matter of putting it all together. I am deeply sorry for my mistakes in this marriage, and wish I could take them back. I am willing to do whatever it takes-- for the rest of my life-- to make my mistakes up to you. I cannot go back and change the past, but I can learn from it, and walk forward and ensure that those mistakes are never repeated.

To continue our relationship, I am asking that you re-commit to our marriage. I want to build a marriage that is stronger and better than before, one that both of us want. I do not want the past to continue to overshadow our great potential together! I just cannot get out of bed one more morning to face being stuck in the past—it is far to painful to remember daily the pain that we put each other through. I understand if you cannot move forward currently, but please understand that I can no longer function while being forced to live in the past.

If you are not ready to make a commitment to our marriage and to me, I would appreciate it if you could find somewhere else to stay, and not contact me at all. If you should need to contact me concerning financial matters or the house, please call (intermediary), and she will relay the information to me. It is just far too painful to face the daily reality of our failing marriage, and I feel that everyday that slides by without a commitment from both of us to give our marriage every thing that we have is another day of immense pain and another day wasted that could have been filled with love and passion. I know in my heart of hearts that we were meant to be together, and that while our marriage will never be the same, it will be much better than it ever was.

In order to come home and work on this marriage, I will require a commitment from you to work on the marriage, and a commitment to attend marital counseling. Additionally, in order to return to our relationship, I will require that there will be no dating or seeing other women during the time period that you are out of the house—this includes, but is not limited to, meals alone with other women, extensive talking to other women either on the internet or via phone.

I want to start over with you, have a clean slate, where we don't forget the past, but we no longer base our actions on things in the past that neither one of us can change anymore. I want to write a beautiful future with you, and I cannot wait another day to start. I want to learn from our mistakes, grow, and flourish in love with you. And when you are ready for this, I will be home, and I will welcome with you open arms and an open heart. I love you with all of my heart, and I know that we can do this together.



All my love, A&F,
E.

PS- Catperson, I'll get that book and I'll look into how many counseling sessions I have left with the university-- for more IC. I think we get 20 per year. Thanks

Hmm... good idea PM!

I think I might try your idea, in combination with SBS's idea for what to say to him when he bring up my A... for a bit. I think I can hold on a bit longer-- at least to garner some RESPECT for myself, if nothing else. Its pretty clear he doesn't respect me right now, at all.

So, I'll work on my plan B letter, so I have it ready to go if need be. And I'm going to work on releasing my guilt (IC, like catperson suggested, and the book), using your idea for the letter, and SBS's way to speak to him and to walk away when he brings it up.

It is going to be super, super tough, because I do still feel so guilty and he does know what buttons to push. And if the first few don't work he keeps pushing until one of them works. And usually if I leave the house, then he barrages me with text messages (see the ones he sent me the other night...).

We'll see. I'll give this a go-- it can't hurt at this point, and if nothing else I think it will help ME respect ME a bit more. I just find it hard to respect myself anymore when I hate what I did-- and anytime I'm confronted with it, I immediately start hating myself again. But at this point, its too much-- and I realize it can't be this way forever...

E.

And that's what the "delete" key is for. After you've told him, you will no longer engage, you enforce that by not responding to ANY communication that is obviously an attempt to guilt you. Simple.

The hard part is YOU letting go of your guilt. I think your plan of action is good. If it helps to symbolically let go, write your guilt on a rock. Then take that rock and throw it as far as you can into a river or lake or the ocean even! You're symbolically letting it go, never to be recovered or drudged up again by YOU or ANYONE.

I like this idea PM. I think I am going to write myself a letter--- wrap it around a rock, and throw it into a local lake (ocean's a little bit too far for me...). I'll take my dog up one afternoon, she loves to go swimming up there....

Wouldn't it be funny though if she jumped in the lake and fetched my rock back out? Well-- that would be quite a "message" if there ever was one! I doubt she would, but I was just thinking about that because I often throw her tennis balls in the lake for her to fetch out.... (but I doubt she'd "dive" to get a rock, but I've never tried!)

E.

Oh no! That would be funny and I'd be questioning it too!! LOL But even if she did, more than likely the "guilt" would be washed away or too blurred for ANYONE to read again. Right?

You are feeling this way because you've been manipulated and emotionally abused for too long. The abuser takes away your ability to believe in yourself, one joke, insult or threat at a time. You put up with X, next time he tries Y; you put up with Y, too; next time he tries Z. Before you know it, your whole life is wrapped up around trying not to displease him or trying to figure out how to change yourself to make him happy. There IS NO MORE YOU left.

That is manipulation, yes? So, if you end up not leaving when he does it, at the very least, say "Ouch. That's manipulation, and I don't like it." Then leave the room. Just keep repeating it every time he tries to pull it on you.

Very true, haha!

Any comments on my plan B letter (above)?

I want to have it airtight and ready to go, just incase my love bank gives out prematurely.

I think with some support here-- especially when H decides to have a fit-- I can hold out a bit longer and "stick up" for myself-- at this point, I need to garner some of my respect back. I made a horrid choice, but I am not a bad person... I wasn't before this, and I'm not now. I was a bad person during that time period, and for that I feel guilty, but that's not who I am-- I let myself deteriorate into some scum-sucking WS and didn't know how to dig myself out for awhile, but I'm on the other side now, and I know I'm better and stronger now. I've learned a lot from this experience, a ton. And I wish more than anything that I can show my H what I've learned, he can learn, and we can re-build and grow together... but even if that doesn't happen, I've learned myself. Not the way I wanted to learn these lessons, and I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, but alas, I'm making lemonade from my self-dealt lemons.

Anyways, I want to get that plan B letter ready to go so I can print (although I think once I have it ready to go, I'll probably hand write it out...) and when enough is enough, I can go plan B without having to scramble.

E.

H,

I would have never thought our marriage would be where it is today. I long for us to be each other's biggest supporters and best friends, and the most important thing in each other's lives. Somewhere along the way we lost each other, and lost what was most important.

It breaks my heart that neither of us has been invested, nor taking responsibility for our actions. I cannot continue putting forth effort without a commitment from you -- it is too painful. I know that deep in our hearts, we are perfect for each other, it's a matter of putting it all together. I am deeply sorry for my mistakes, and wish I could take them back. I cannot change the past, but I can learn from it, and ensure that those mistakes are never repeated.

To continue our relationship, I am asking that you re-commit to our marriage. I want to build a strong marriage and I don't want the past to continue to overshadow our great potential together! I understand if you cannot move forward, but please understand that I can no longer function while being forced to live in the past.

If you're not ready to make a commitment to our marriage and to me, you need to find somewhere else to stay, and no longer contact me at all. If you need to contact me concerning financial matters or the house, please call (intermediary), and she will relay the information to me. It's just far too painful to stay like this and it's causing me to lose my love for you. I know we were meant to be together, and that while our marriage will never be the same, it will be much better than it ever was.

In order to come home and work on this marriage, I will require a commitment from you to work on the marriage and attend marital counseling - that will have to be proved by your actions. You will need to commit to No Contact with any other former or future women, and you will need to prove to me through complete transparency, just as I am willing to show you complete transparency of MY actions.

I want to start over with you, have a clean slate, where we don't forget the past, but we no longer base our actions on things in the past that neither one of us can change anymore. I want to write a beautiful future with you, and I cannot wait another day to start. I want to learn from our mistakes, and grow in love with you again. When you are ready for this, and can agree to those things I'll need to be able to be with you again, I will welcome with you open arms, but not until, or I will lose my love for you, and I don't want that. I love you with all of my heart, and I know that we can do this together.

All my love, A&F,
E.

Great revise, catperson. You took away the verbosity (a bad habit of mine) and left the "meat" of what I wanted to say. Thanks so much! I will handwrite this version (I always think a handwritten letter means more than a typed one...), and keep it in a safe place for when I decide it is time.

You've a great resource to me over the past few days, thank you! It is with support of you and others here that have so generously given their time and advice that I will stand up and fight for myself, to earn some respect back for myself, and still fight for my M at the same time. It will be a fine line to walk, but I think that I can do it for a bit longer before I need the plan B letter.

Things are calm at home now. Usually H has his hissy fits about once a week or so, so I'm probably "safe" for the next few days.

The only snafu in all of this is that H will begin to travel again for his job (after a 2 year hiatus)-- so he'll be out of town (except for weekends) for the next 2 months. The working out of town is what really took an initial toll on our relationship in the first place... so we'll see how this goes.

One of those assignments is only about 4 hours from where we live (by car), so I was thinking of driving down to surprise him one evening.

Again, thank you so much. I feel much better and stronger just getting this out in a supportive environment such as this...

E.

Excellent revise Cat.

E.,

Of course I will help with moral support. I cannot access this from work, so I am limited to when I can be on the boards. You have a good plan in place, Cat gave you a good revision so that is ready. Hopefully your H will react well to your taking a stand in the ways you have decided. Never let it erupt in an argument.

I told my FWW right after this that the shortcomings we had toward each other including her A are in the past. I just reminded her of that and did not let it go into an argument

Thanks SBS.

Things have been calm at home recently. Still a fine lack of any sort of affection of any sort... (affection is my top EN and is SORELY SORELY lacking, and has been for the past year or so...).

More SF last night (H and I haven't discussed ENs... I tried to get him to do the survey many, many moons ago, but he didn't take it seriously.... so from knowing my H for the past 12 years, I extrapolate what I THINK his greatest ENs are... not different than most men's.... SF, recreational companionship, and admiration. SF and admiration are probably his two highest. Admiration is hard to meet right now because, well, there's not a whole lot to admire about him, honestly. Is it bad I feel that way? Probably. I guess through all of this I've lost a ton of respect for him-- mainly because of the way he shoves blame for everything on me and whines and complains constantly about things being so horrible but not even so much as lifting a finger about it....

Anyways, I'm sure that I'll need the support again here soon.

H is leaving to go out of town on Sunday evening-- he's going to CA. We won't see each other much for the next 2 weeks at all. He leaves Sunday evening... and then comes back the following Friday evening, but that Saturday morning I leave for a conference that I have to go to for work (I only go away once a year...). I come back Tuesday, but he'll be gone back to CA again by then. So in the next two weeks we'll see each other about 12 hours.

His traveling is really what put the initial stress on our M, so I'm a little nervous about how this is going to go. We'll see.

E.

Actually, the break may be a good thing. The traveling was bad when you had a full love bank, plenty of respect for him and not having your emotions trampled. Strangely enough, you will probably miss him though.

Try to think of how this separation by distance can help your situation. Certainly, you can take the time to think through things and bolster the areas of your mind that you are currently weak in. Funny, as I write that I think of all the WS's that say they need to get away to think about what they really want. They don't, but you need to.

I would bet that with you being away at this conference, your H will take the opportunity to make accusations against you. After all, that is the reputation of many out of town conferences. I honestly don't know what is better: to take pains to be able to provide proof against these claims or to be prepared to simply blow off any such claims by repeating that you want both of your shortcomings to be in the past and not be thrown in each others faces. I would lean toward the latter, but if he does say anything you might try telling him that you understand his concern just as you could have concerns about his trip as well. Ask if he has any suggestions that each of you could do to make the other one comfortable that boundaries and accountability are in place.

The important thing is that all such conversations must be peaceful, productive and about BOTH of you or not take place at all. This is a powerful tool in your hand, because it has the power to neutralize his venom. Ok I spent a lot of words talking about what I think he will do. Maybe he won't, but you will be prepared.

Take the time away from him to do some self healing. Remember, the worst that can happen to you is that you and this man part ways and you have another opportunity at your very young age to pursue happiness. In the end, you can find happiness with him or without him. Armed with that knowledge, take a step back and relax. Make the most of any phone calls you have with him, but be prepared to end hostile calls with your new line about "both of your shortcomings" and get off the phone peacefully.

Also, take the time to think through potential future conversations. What will you say if X, Y, or Z is said to you. When I was going through this with my FWW, I would take hours of my driving time to practice things to say to her. When the situations came up that I predicted, I was ready with answers to say just as I wanted to say to her. I didn't fumble around with my emotions and get all tongue tied. You may not even say what you practiced, but having the answer gives you the confidence to branch out and fall back to the original if you need to. For the spouse that is the one trying to save the relationship this is another powerful tool because the other one doesn't think about anything except their self. This puts you in control of every conversation.

Finally, one word of encouragement. Thinking back to your early posts - it seems to me a big concern of SF is becoming more frequent. You even mentioned that he initiates. Maybe I am reading more into it but it may be a good sign.

Sorry about the length but since I cannot write much I have to give it all at once.

SBS

Hey SBS--

BTW-- I am glad things are looking up for you, that's really great to hear. I guess I should have said that a long time ago, but I had been thinking about you too, and how things are going for you, and I'm really glad to hear they are looking up for you

OK-- you are right. I am actually somewhat looking FORWARD to him leaving for 2 months. It is almost like Monday through Friday I can count on PEACE. And he'll be far away, so the only way he can bother me is via phone... and it is easier to walk away from that then when he's actually HERE. So I'm looking forward to PEACE. And usually when he's away he's pretty busy (or so he used to tell me in the past... unless that was a cover up for something... so he doesn't have a whole lot of time to talk). Plus I've thought that getting a little bit of space between us might be a GOOD thing, you know-- that "absence makes the heart grow fonder" deal (maybe??). I also anticipate being accused of doing things at home while he's out of town too (which annoys me more, because its not like I CHOSE for him to go out of town or even really like it... its like I'm being punished for something I didn't like and didn't want in the first place...).

And I am anticipating being accused of all sorts of things while I'm at my conference. I invited him along, but he can't go because of work... (nor did he really seem that interested... I don't blame him...he could either sit bored in the hotel all day (its not in that fun of a city), or he can come to the conference with me, but its not his field and would probably be mind-numbingly boring. Heck sometimes its boring for me and it IS my field!). Anyways, I'm going with my boss (she's driving me out there), so that should ease his fears a bit, I would think-- although I'm not actually staying with my boss once we get there (that would be a bit weird? I'm already slightly weirded out by having to spend 4.5 hours in a car with her!). So I'm not really looking forward to it... we'll see how it goes. I have already provided him with the name of the place I'm staying, etc etc so he can "check up" on me.

Yes, the SF is becoming more frequent, and I'm cautiously optimistic about that fact. I do enjoy that, but I am still sorely missing my top EN-- affection-- which is virtually absent.

So I guess we'll see how I feel Sunday night-- his first night of traveling in about 2 years....

E.

Thanks. Things are really very good between my FWW and I. There were many things that helped me cushion the blow of this very terrible thing. As I have stated before, I comprehend the perfect storm that brought about conditions for her to put herself in this position. This led her to set aside boundaries that protected her all these years against the constant barrage of men that throw themselves at her daily. I think 99% of the people that put themselves in the vulnerable position she did will fall the way she did. Add the fact the creep was a serial predator of women who had sharpened every tool in his arsenal and it was a foregone conclusion.

The A ending did not make things easy. I knew I had several mountains to climb. First, she needed to be convinced I loved her and that the changes in me were going to stick. There were a few "aha!" moments at first. She didn't really say it, but I could tell she was questioning this or that. Before all this I would do my best and figure she knew what I was thinking. Now I have to be so proactive to tell her how I feel and why I delay in doing this or that. That has helped solidify things.

Next, I knew the mountain of guilt that would hit her. I have done everything I can to help her with that while making sure that what she did sunk in enough to avoid in the future. Enough to refine but not so much that it torments her.

Then she needed to fall in love with me again. I have been giving it my all and she tells me it has worked. Things are very good. We remained best friends through all of this. I had to deal with a lot of pain to retain that, but it has paid off. I actually did a full court press research on SF and that has produced some incredible results.

My biggest worry is that I will slip or get too busy again to meet her needs. However, I have high hopes that things will only get better.

As for your case, sometimes maybe things are like those toys that have half the toy in the front, half in the back and a spring or slinky in the middle. You pull the front and the spring stretches and stretches and finally the back part moves. Maybe the SF is the first part and eventually the back part (affection) will come.

Well I have to run. Hope you make the best of things until Sunday. Stick to your plan. If nothing else he will respect you for standing up for yourself. It will also deny him the fuel he needs to justify his treatment of you. If you put up with it, he probably thinks you think you deserve it. Whether you ever did deserve it, you certainly do not deserve it to go on and on.

SBS

SBS-

I'm really glad things are going so well for you, and that you sound like you are personally dealing with things very well. I wish that my H could have the clarity that you do in this situation.

What strikes me the most about our situations is how you have identified where the M failed pre-A, and your role in the failure of the M, are actively trying to make sure that doesn't happen again. It seems that my H is actively setting the stage again for the same show that was around pre-A for us.

Really, I want to shake him, scream at him, and yell "don't you see that you are doing the same things that led our M to be so terrible in the first place?!?!" But then again, I think, well if I shake him and yell and scream at him and "lecture" him... well then that makes ME the same person as I WAS before.... so I don't. But the problem is, I can't really "talk" to him either. He either gets defensive and angry, or shuts down. I have told him respectfully what my ENs are, but he either doesn't care or then uses then against me (ie, intentionally DOESN'T do them just to bother me then).

I really have been trying my hardest to meet his ENs... I realize I had/have changes to make too. Where I get bitter and resentful is that he is somehow ENTITLED to me treating him this way... and him getting off scot-free in terms of effort. Now, I would agree with this statement about 8 months ago. I DID have something to prove to him then, and I would agree with him when he said that he shouldn't have put in a whole lot of effort or been that invested without some COLD HARD PROOF that I was going to show up and do what I needed to.

But its been a year. A YEAR! And I have shown up. Consistently. But my efforts have been down-played, taken for granted. I get insanely jealous when I see BHs on here RECOGNIZING their FWW's (and sometimes even WW's!) efforts. Because mine doesn't, at all. I feel like a servant, like I am less important and less worthy than my H. We've BOTH made mistakes, for pete's sake! Its not like he's innocent! But he considers his A "not as bad" therefore, he doesn't have to do anything about it.

I am just exhausted... really exhausted. Yesterday was a particularly long and not so great day for me at work. H knew this. He actually worked from home the vast majority of the day-- and usually when he works from home, he doesn't actually do that much "working"-- its more like watching ESPN with his computer on his lap... but anyways. I missed my bus home, and he didn't even offer to come get me (I was exhausted and just wanted to go home). I waited another half hour for another bus, and then took it home (an hour long ride). When I got home, I then had to pitch in for the house chores and to help make dinner, which he hadn't done , even though I didn't get home until 7. And then this morning he wallowed in bed while I made the coffee, made lunches, took the dog out, etc etc-- and again, he's working from home for the majority of today, so he could have helped out. It just frustrates me to no end. He has no capacity for empathy, whatsoever-- no capacity to put himself in someone else's shoes.

And if I try telling him about my day, he'll interrupt me with some story about why HIS day was so bad. Its like a competition-- if my day is bad, his has to be a worse. And he never actually LISTENS to me. Usually just interrupts me to talk about himself. And don't get me wrong, I want to hear about his day. But I'm tired of feeling like if I have a bad day, his has to be worse. Or that he's not that interested in what I have to say, in just coming up with some story about himself that he can tell to change the subject to himself.

I'm irritated, my LB is low. But I got up this morning, and did everything. And then went in and kissed him goodbye and told him to have a good day, although what I really wanted to do was to kick him in the b@lls and tell him what I really thought and how insensitive I think he is anymore...

And all of this were my huge, huge, huge problems pre-A. All of this... this is what drained my LB. But he doesn't care. He's re-setting the stage for the exact same play. The only difference is that I'm not participating in it again-- I have learned, I'm not repeating those mistakes...

It just frustrates me that we went through he!! and back for the past 2 years... for nothing. He learned NOTHING. He's still the same entitled, selfish, childish person that he was 2 years ago. The same one. Its just now it seems I've given him a universal "license" to be this way-- an eternal excuse.

I'm just really frustrated and feeling really low today-- desperately in need for some of my ENs to be met (affection, conversation....). Its just a low day. And the worst part is, if I told him this, even respectfully, it would just start him on some entitled rant about how I don't deserve any of this, and he doesn't feel like it-- which would just drain the LB even further than it would be if I just kept my mouth shut.

Still making the best of things. To him-- on the outside, I'm strong, cheery. On the inside, I'm dying, I'm losing hope that the man that I thought he was even exists anymore.

I write things like this, and half of me feels like a whiny WS... that doesn't want to do the heavy lifting. But I DO! And I think I have... I've PROVEN OVER AND OVER again that I CAN and WILL do what I need to-- I've been transparent, I've met ENs, I've changed my own reactions, I've locked my taker in a dungeon... I've put him first... I've fought for us in spite of the fact that he's done nothing but shove things in my face, been horrible to me, and taken other women out to lunch. But one person does not a M make...

My emotions are running rampant today... there are some days I just want to give up, and this happens to be one of them. I'm sure some of that has to do with his leaving to go out of town again on Sunday, and my anticipation of what will happen. If nothing else has changed, why would what he does when he's out of town change? I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt, and we'll see, but I don't have a lot of confidence. I'm predicting he'll just behave as he used to and have a whole lot of excuses, as usual (and by "used to"-- I mean, that he'll leave Sunday night and I won't hear from him again until Friday evening when he "re-appears".

He's "too busy" to call his wife. He honestly tried to pass that crap off. I said, if you had time to take a piss or to eat that day, you had 5 minutes to CALL YOUR WIFE and tell her you loved her and missed her. Even if you were having a busy day, you still could have done THAT MUCH. And don't tell me you didn't have 30 seconds to do that, because its bullsh!t. But he claims he "really didn't" ahve 30 seconds to call. Or that he didn't call because every time he called he "got yelled at" (also, BS-- and the only time I would get angry with him when he was out of town was when I didn't hear from him for days and days and days.... my joke was that I could be dead in a ditch somewhere and no one would ever know until he came home Friday and couldn't find me.... it was half a joke, but really it was the truth...

And yes, I'd get angry with him because he wouldnt' call for days at a time, and I'd call him and he'd never answer and never call back. BUT HERE'S AN IDEA... IF YOU CALL, THEN I WOULDN'T GET ANGRY! And I really don't think its THAT much to ask for for a freaking phone call per day.

Bitter, upset, and just want to give up....

E.

Your story is a lot like mine as far as effort/acknowledgment goes. And I can tell you with all honesty, you have to tell him the truth about how you are feeling. You have to voice your feelings. Tell him, and then step back while he does his windup rant about how he's suffering more than you. Remember that his rant ISN'T about you. It's all his FOO stuff making him be in a particular position; he has little control over it, at least not at this point. If he were to go to counseling, he could learn to understand why he does it. But try to remember that it is just his learned behavior from childhood; it's how he got what he needed as a child; it's what worked for him, and he brought it forward to adulthood. Not about you.

But you HAVE to be honest with him. I have not been telling my H the truth for 30 years. And he has run with it just like your H; oblivious to the fact that I'm miserable about all the ENs I'm not getting from him; and if I mention it, he retreats and makes it all about him so that he won't be seen in a bad light.

I'm trying to teach myself that, but I have severely low self-esteem, so I have a very deep well to climb out of before I can stop taking it seriously.

But that's what you need to do. First, you need to tell him to prove to yourself that you are a valuable human being, just as valuable as him. Second, you need to tell him because it's not fair to him if you finally just can't take any more and leave. You have to at least say he was warned. And third, telling him will slowly start to give you the courage to set better boundaries to prove to both of you that you are just as important as him, and his needs don't have to get taken care of first. And if he won't see to your needs, you will have to do it on your own.

Have you read the book The Dance of Anger? It addresses what you and I are going through; short read, very informative, and very helpful for you to start setting healthy boundaries.

Unless you find a reason to keep trying, you will run out of steam and give up. I don't know how to word this without seeming to blame you...that is definitely not my point - Basically he has walked on you for most of your marriage and you have allowed him to. Good people have a way of doing that. My W is like that - not that I ever walked on her (my shortcomings were more passive). Other people walked on her for her whole life. I kept noticing a pattern - she would allow it, allow it, allow it then overreact when she hit her boiling point.

My W has retrained herself to standup for herself all the time. She will answer back when insulted or when somebody tries to walk on her. She will say no when asked to do something she really does not want to do or have time for. Best of all, she can now do it in a non-reactionary mode. When you stand up for yourself before the emotions kick in, you can do it on a small scale that does not escalate the situation. Now with your H, it might escalate at first because he is not used to it. In this approach you are able to diffuse because your emotions are not involved yet. You are in control.

Your H has multiple modes: First he wants to dominate you. Second he wants your unconditional love and admiration. I am not sure, but I think when people like that get both (as you have been doing in Plan A), in their minds they realize they do not deserve it. Maybe they do not think of it in those terms, but there must be some underlying realization that they are reaping a benefit that they have not fully earned. When we get something we have not earned we are much less satisfied with it and we do not appreciate it as much. Plan A is good, but I think this is a downside. I don't think Plan A is meant to go on forever. It either transitions into Plan B or into a POJA.

Standing up for yourself does not mean responding in anger to anything that you don't like. It does not mean being a nag or a B. It means clearly communicating what is not acceptable and what your needs are. It also means ensuring that the give and take of a relationship is at least somewhat in balance. It does not have to be equal, but it should be in the same ballpark.

Standing up for yourself must be natural and not forced. This happens when it becomes a mindset instead of an afterthought. It is like learning a new language. Instead of thinking in English and translating in German, you come to think in German.

You can still be a very loving, giving person AND stand up for yourself. Just as your H reacts as he learned in childhood, you have grown up thinking these things cannot coexist. It is simply understanding that both the giver and the taker have value.

You have weeks of peace and time to change your mindset and then act on it. Change to a proactive mindset and stop reacting. Reacting is an emotional outburst. Crying. Arguing. Getting into an EA. All reacting.

You can change you. Then it will remain to be seen if he can change himself. If not, you will have done all you could.

Thanks SBS. I guess its hard for me to walk that fine line between standing up for myself and doing things counterproductive to recovery. Right now H makes me feel like anything that I do that isn't what HE wants is from the latter category.

I think I'm getting better at not reacting to his button pushing tactics, but what I'm not good at is standing up for myself-- like the example I gave before with the happy hour. He makes me feel like I'm doing something wrong by going-- so I just don't. I can't be locked up and chained up for the rest of my life though. And what doesn't make sense to me is if you are constantly telling me how you don't feel the same way about me, our M doesn't mean anything to you anymore, yadda yadda yadda... well then why in God's green earth do you CARE so much what I do?!!?

He even had a fit a few months back when I decided to meet a good friend of mine (she was my best friend all through high school... we now live 2 hours apart... but there's a town with some good shopping pretty much smack in the middle between us, so sometimes we meet up for lunch and shopping... we don't do it that often because she's super busy with her own husband and daughter...)... anyways, I told him that I was going to meet her, and he flipped out, didn't like it, because he "didn't know" who I was going with or where I was going. I ended up sending him picture messages of the town and of me and my friend so he knew who I was with/where I was, but I still got accused of taking OM (nevermind that I hadn't talked to him in 6 months at that point, or that I had never even done anything even remotely like that in the past to warrant being accused of that...).

That instance, I still ended up going, even though he was upset. I bought him some things on my shopping trip, and that seemed to "ease" the tension. But still, its like anytime I do ANYTHING at all that isn't revolving my life around him, he gets upset and then brings up the A (but he has a weekly golf outing with his buddies, and takes off to hang out with them whenever he feels like it, and that's OK too, justified by the A).

I guess sometimes I honestly question myself anymore. I know what things are "triggers" and I've eliminated particular friends and activities from my life that included OM. I gave up a lot of my work friends. I no longer play a particular sport after work which is where OM and I first became good friends, even though I really enjoy it. But it seems that it has extended to EVERYTHING now-- even shopping trips with my good friend.

I guess much like catperson said, I have honestly been "brainwashed" as to what is appropriate here, and what isn't. I know that I need to take extraordinary precautions, but something tells me that Dr. Harley doesn't mean for me to lock myself in my house and become a servant to my H-- which is sort of what its turned into. It just seems anymore that he can turn ANY aggravation of his into something about the A. My "joke" (although not really a joke) is that a skirmish about the dishwasher can somehow be turned into a fullfledged argument about the A. He claims that that is all we ever argue about, but the fact of the matter is that as soon as he gets upset, he finds someway to tie whatever he's upset to to the A, even if they aren't related at all.

On a good note, H made me an iced chai to go to work with this morning instead of my usual coffee-- he knows I love iced chai tea.

Things are still peaceful. Not affectionate, but peaceful. I guess I feel like we are more like roommates than anything anymore. That's about how he treats me. He's going golfing again with his buddies this afternoon (took a half day of work), so he'll be home a bit later.

E.