We had more doom and gloom last night.

I had gone to a friend's birthday party last night, and when I got in was talking to him online when he started his normal stuff about "how hard" it was on him. And how he just "can't" open up and doesn't want to put in the effort and "isn't there yet" on the trying part. Arg.

I stood up for myself better than normal. And-- I flat out told him that he makes me feel like [censored] all the time-- and that I feel like [censored] because of what he did, and because he smears what I did in my face day after day after day. Flat out told him. He said he was sorry, and that wasn't the intention, but he didn't seem all that terribly sorry. It was more like he said it just because it seemed like the right thing to say, not because he really meant it.

I also used your techniques, SBS, telling him it was time to move on from "OUR" mistakes, etc.

In all honestly, the only "mistake" I think I made was that I let the conversation go on for too long without just ending it. He brought it up once, and I made my statement and changed the subject (which worked for 5 minutes) then he brought it up again. At which point, I should have made my statement and went to bed (this was like at 1:30 am, YIKES!)-- but I got sucked in the second time, and I let it go on too long. But I stood my ground, and I told him how I really felt, how he made me feel like unappreciated poo-- and that it was time to leave OUR mistakes in the past and that while I may never be able to completely make up for what I did, I can't keep living in this guilt.

So, all in all, it wasn't PERFECT. Truthfully, it was too long (I remember now schoolbus telling me once that I drag out conversations too long and get sucked in... well I did it again last night... ) BUT, I stood my ground, I made a stand. And I didn't flip out or even get overly emotional. But the length is the only thing I'd change.

He consistently answers everything with "he's not ready" to try in the marriage. Or he can't talk to me about things. Or he doesn't want me to help him or do anything to help him when these moods happen. Its like he WANTS to stay in this depressive state and not do the work to dig us out of this. He keeps us in this pit... but then complains about the state of our marriage. Well-- duh-- our marriage is awful RIGHT NOW because you aren't trying! But he says he can't try now because he tried a year and a half ago and it "didn't work". So I guess he can't try again.

Grr.

Oh and catperson-- you are right. Now that he's gone, it is actually empowering to me and I'm happier. Because my life is about me right now, and I don't have to worry about him. And he may have a meltdown, but he's 3K miles away from me right now. It gives me more strength to be away from him.

I'm still torn on WHEN to go plan B.

E.

Great job again. Keep it up. Remember, you are doing this for yourself - not us. As for getting sucked in - I too have trouble ending some conversations.

Good - keep gently forwarding the notion of moving forward and working on things. Keeps it on the forefront of his mind. At the right time that you decide, you have your talk where your suggestions become mandatory. Both of you must commit to working on it or you move to B toward D.

Thanks for the encouragement SBS. I got up this morning and sent him a text that just said "good morning-- its a beautiful day here!" (it was and he's on the other coast currently).

We've been talking online today, and everything seems fine, no tension, no mention of last night's melt down.

Tonight I have yet ANOTHER birthday party to attend (a lot of birthdays recently!) so I'm keeping busy.

I need to learn how to "exit" the conversations without rebutting every single one of his dismal remarks about our marriage. At this point, it is like the boy that cried wolf anyways. If it was really as bad as he says it is, all the time, for the past year-- why in God's green earth is he still here?!?

His comments used to really upset me, but now they sort of have the effect of just making me roll my eyes and think "here we go again!" He's just cake eating anymore and using the A as an excuse to get out of investing anything in this M.

I need to learn to exit conversations better... that's next up on my list of things to work on. Exiting a conversation when it goes downhill. Letting him make whatever dismal remarks he wants. I think he has an altered sense of reality at this point... its funny, how "long" my A was in his mind has been getting longer and longer...he used to claim 10 months, and then a year, now we are up to him saying it lasted a year and a half (it depends on what all you are considering the "A" how long the timeline is...the year and a half he's touting now includes from the DAY I met OM-- which of course was not the day the A started-- to the very final day that OM sent me an 8 page manifesto email, that H found in my email account-- he had my password-- when I hadn't talked to OM in about 6 months at that point in time and did nothing to elicit the email). I think he keeps extending it in his own head so that he can keep extending his "punishment"-- its a little ridiculous. He's stretched it out as far as he possibly can just to give himself justification. Next I think he's gonna start with the day I started working here, even though I didn't even MEET OM until I had worked here for almost 2 years!

I honestly think that if he gives this up, he'll kick himself someday. Only because he certainly hasn't cleaned his half of the street. He's just tried to kick the garbage to my side to clean up. He certainly hasn't learned anything about the initial problems leading to the A, and certainly hasn't accepted any responsibility for pre-A actions, or his own A. EVERYTHING is my fault. He's done nothing but noble, marriage oriented things in his mind.

Except he's not living in reality. He's pawning off responsibility and cake eating now.

OK, I need to stop complaining. I'm getting worked up! I guess I just don't understand him. If you want a close, great marriage (like he claims) um, well then DO IT. Or at least TRY. Don't just whine and complain about it then flop around like a fish out of water. And don't give me crap about not trusting my changes... its been a year. Which is plenty long enough to at least warrant a CHANCE at this if it is what you want.

I half way think what he wants is for me to screw up again, so he can point the finger at me, and run away and keep his own ego and pride intact. He can't walk away now because he knows he hasn't done his work, and that would eat at him. So the easy way out is to find some way to blame me again, then run away, and convince himself it is still all my fault.

Funny thing bud.

I've learned and am not going to screw up again I've done the hard introspection, and I did it ALONE. I've dealt with my own demons, figured out my faults and flaws... done the fixing. I'm not perfect, no. I never will be. But I'm a h$ll of a better wife than I was.

So, you can flounder all you want like a fish out of water.

But don't think I'm gonna hand you that reason to walk away scot-free.

You'll be waiting a very long time for that one.

He's only got two choices:

1. He gives up now, continues to blame this all at me, and his own guilt will eat at him.

or

2. He steps up and does this the way it should be done.

And if HE doesn't pick one of those, I'll remove myself from him until he does. There ARE no other choices anymore.

E.

Today is a rough day for me. I'm really on the rollercoaster and I'm not sure why.

I was feeling empowered and strong this morning, and am now sad and nostalgic and in need of affection. I just re-read the e-card that H sent me for our 3 year anniversary and sat at my desk and cried for a bit...

I just need some sort of STABILITY...

I really hate that he comes home tomorrow night and I leave on Saturday...

E.

I know it is hard, but it is very important that you separate as much as possible your emotions from your decisions. It is ok to feel the way you do, but be careful.

I have found that the best way to deal with strong emotions is not to try to push them away, but to fully embrace them. They just seem to bother me more when I try to squelch them. I am a very positive person though, so maybe that only works for me.

Hope you have a good trip. Remember, you need this time. Though there are ups and downs I can see already you are growing stronger. No matter the outcome, you must become strong for your long term needs.

Figured I'd give a quick update since its been awhile...

This past week H was in CA, he came home Friday night, and I left Saturday morning for a conference. I got back yesterday. I really thought that it was going to be really rough for us. I predicted huge fights, hissy fits from him, and more of him telling me how little our M meant to him and how he "couldn't do this" and "didn't know" if he wanted it.

I WAS WRONG!

Friday evening he came home, and we went out for a nice dinner, and then went and got coffee at a local bookshop (one of our favorite things to do). Came home and went straight to bed (hehe...of course, SF). Saturday morning, more SF, then I left for the conference.

We texted/called the whole time I was gone. He was supportive, said he even wanted to hear about the conference (!?!?!?!? usually he could give two craps!).

I was surprised.

THEN...

I got home yesterday. He had left for CA on Sunday again (btw, he survived his FIRST EVER EARTHQUAKE YESTERDAY-- we are from PA-- we don't get earthquakes here!).

Anyways, I come in the door-- and lo and behold-- there's FLOWERS on the kitchen counter for me. Daisies (our wedding flower and my fav) with 3 pink roses. And a card, saying he couldn't wait to see me Friday when I he got home.

WOW!!!

On top of that, he cleaned the bathroom (usually my job) and did some other random things around the house for me.

Whoa-- is this my H?!?!

So, I'm cautiously optimistic.

He's been supportive, actually CALLING me everyday from CA, keeping me abreast of what's going on out there... he's been holding up his end very nicely recently.

He even said he missed me the other day while in CA. And for the first time, I didn't feel like he was just "saying" that to make me happy. I felt like he MEANT it.

He hasn't picked a single fight. Hasn't made a single passive-aggressive comment. In fact, the other day he texted me that "he was really stressed out" while I was at my conference. Immediately my hackles went up, thinking "here we go!"-- thinking he was gonna start stuff with me about not trusting me, that he was in one of his moods.... that this was his passive agressive way of telling me he was flipping out.

I just texted back... "why?"

And-- to my surprise, he texted back about how he was trying to get this-that-or the other thing done before he left, and just had a lot of things to do.

So, I had my hackles up over nothing. Nothing at all.

He comes home Friday again, I am picking him up at the airport. And I am looking forward to seeing him!

E.

E.,

I am soooo happy to hear your report. I have to believe your new techniques have let him know you are no longer a doormat. Keep it up.

And sorry to do this, but brace yourself for a low. They always happen. Try to just say 'yep, there it is' and not let it bother you too much. Now you can turn the conversation quickly to a positive recent act of kindness he did. If it gets rough just bring it up and say how much you appreciated that. Stick to it and don't be a 'deer in the headlights' when it happens. Be ready 24/7. In the meantime enjoy.

I'm ready for the "lows" SBS. But it seems the "lows" are coming further and further apart, and that they aren't as "low" as they used to be anymore.

I was doing some reflection over the past few days after posting to KMS and intro, and realized how far we really have come over the past year.

I realized that it is more like hair growth. If you decide you want to grow out your hair, and you see yourself in the mirror everyday, you don't "realize" your hair is growing, its not like you have short hair then wake up one day with long hair. It grows slowly. So slowly you don't notice unless you go back and look at old pictures-- and realize how short it really was. That's how this is. I didn't realize how far we had come. We used to fight (and by fight I mean knock-down, drag out LB fests... complete with screaming, door slamming, crying, and days worth of the silent treatment) right after I first came back home. So much screaming the neighbors called the police once

I don't even remember the last time that happened.

Part of it was my realizing MY FAULT in all of that. Part of it was my accepting responsibility and realizing I was gonna have to carry the "load" for awhile if this is what I wanted. And a big part of it was this site.

But, we're here. Recovery isn't a destination-- its a journey. Each couple has to find their own way.

I still am not positive we'll make it. But I have a heck of a lot more hope than I did a year ago at this time!

And him putting in his "half" of the work recently has made all of my work so worth it. For the first time in awhile, I've been happy.

We'll still have rough spots, I'm sure of it. I'm sure this isn't the last of the doom and gloom. But its a journey. And the lows are not as low, and not as frequent anymore.

Part of it I contribute to his traveling. While I don't think it is good on a long term basis, I think that his being away made him realize what he was missing at home. I've seen a big attitude change in him just in the past 2 weeks. It was almost like a little job-imposed plan B-ish. I guess absence really does make the heart grow fonder.

He even left me messages last night after I went to bed about how much he missed me. And they sounded genuine, and when I got them this morning, I woke up with A HUGE smile on my face. And he even said that he was sorry about the traveling and that he knew it was especially hard for these two weeks because there is now a 3 hour time difference between us... so essentially once he's done with dinner, I'm getting ready for bed. And when I get out of work, he's only half way through his day....

Things are still looking good. We have another "mini-vacation" planned here in a few days. We are leaving next friday to go on a weekend trip (just the two of us) somewhere (he planned it and won't tell me where we are going), and then meeting family at the beach Mon-Wed of the following week. So that should be fun too.

I'm gaining confidence that we ARE a success story. Just gotta keep at it. Not out of the woods yet.

E.

Naw, not hopeless.

I was drug over to your thread and told to analyse. My eyes glazed over with all the details. I went into shock. After I recovered, I just had one thought. Well, maybe breaking it down you can find more than one thought. You be the judge.

See, what I sense is two people struggling for the moral high ground in the relationship and neither deserve it given what each of you has done. What I sense is a couple of really, really bright people who slide into the emotional maturity level of high school. Neither of you make the other secure and comfortable.

Both of you need to take a deep breath and, gasp, start all over.

And avoid the games.

Am I wrong?

Larry

Oh, and your last post, which I hadn't read when I posted my previous comment, looks suspiciously like both of you are starting over. Good job.

Larry

Drug over to my thread? By whom? I'm confused.

Yeah, there's a lot of details-- I'm a talker (I'm Italian). Usually I notice around here if you don't give all the details up front you end up being ask all these questions over and over again... so, I figured I'd put em' up front in the first post.

I also tend to post when I'm very frustrated or angry, and use it more as a journal-- so sometimes there's a few days worth of lag in posting because there's not much going on, and there's not that many people replying on my thread, so I'm not just gonna write to myself on here when I have nothing of that much importance to say

And I don't want to play game anymore, trust me. Yes, we played a lot of games early on. And I still think sometimes he likes to play games, but I've worked on bowing out of the games.... and have gotten much better.

I think that maybe I DID have the emotional maturity level of a high schooler... even a year ago. But I really don't think that's true anymore. I know that I've grown and learned a lot here... and that maybe sometimes my posts don't reflect that a lot because I tend to only post a lot when I'm really worked up. And I hold all of that intense emotion back from spilling out on H, and instead comes out here as one enormous LB.

Also, its hard to "start over" at a game when only one person wants to start over. My H, up until recently, had steadfastly REFUSED to do ANYTHING AT ALL for this M or for me.

I'm a tad bit perplexed by your reply, Larry!

E.

It's amazing how much response you get from your spouse when you quit LBing and start meeting ENs. Just amazing.

This weekend was great

We spent lots of time together, and there was no arguments and no passive agressive comment at all. Friday night I picked him up from the airport, and he had bought little gifts from his trip for me and the dog (ha!). Saturday we had a softball game (we play for a co-ed adult league) and then we made dinner ourselves and then went to visit friends later that evening. Sunday we ran some errands together.

Today he left to go out of town again... and I said after he left that I had to run into work really fast. We went to Starbucks together, and then he supposively left to go out of town, while I went to work. I was in work for a bit, taking my good ol' time... and when I came out of work I noticed a car like his at the end of the street... just sitting there.

I wasn't sure if it was his or not... and sure enough when I started to drive away, it followed me. I then realized it was him. He had followed me to work after he told me he was leaving town, and then had waited for me to come out, I suppose ensuring I came out alone.

Of course, I wasn't doing anything wrong, I had told him I was running into work (although had I had known he was waiting for me, I wouldn't have taken as long inside... I played on my computer for a bit, and did other random things just because I was in no hurry).

But I guess it was a harsh reminder that we aren't out of the woods yet, and of the past, and of the fact that he still doesn't trust me .

I called him once I realized it was him following me... and I wasn't angry about it. I have told him he can check up on me whenever he wants, I don't care... and I mean that. It made me more SAD than it did ANGRY. Anyways, I called him and I apologized that he felt like he needed to follow me.

He didn't say much other than him going out of town has been rough, which I'm sure. He really doesn't have a way of knowing what I'm doing while he's out of town. Granted, I have my cell, and I've offered picture messages to prove I am where I say I am-- and there's been a few other ways that I've validated my whereabouts... but I know its still lurking in the back of his mind that he can't keep tabs on me 24/7 when he's out of town.

Anyways, it really rattled me, but we've been doing so well, I don't want to let it really get me down. It just made me so sad... such a harsh reminder of what I did. I wish it would just go away, not for my benefit, but his. The fact that he would feel the need to sit outside my work and leave an hour later than planned just so he could check up on me... kills me.

I came home after that and walked the dog and cried while I was walking the dog. Now I'm here alone


E.

PS-- is there any way to change a thread title name anymore since the big switch over? My thread title isn't really relevant anymore... at least not at the current moment, so its a tad bit misleading, but I don't want to start a new thread 'cause that seems to get people's panties in a bundle around here...

I'm afraid my lack of responses may be due to my inaccurate thread title

Or maybe I'm just that hopeless

E.

ETA: That doesn't mean I don't appreciate those that regularly contribute here, so please don't take it that way, catperson, SBS and others!

Morning!!



I am so glad that you guys had a good weekend.This morning I had a chance to read this thread and my God did it hit home.SO familiar,that its spooky!Everything from the online dating to the well evrything.



I dont think that I am in the postition to give any advice but I think the way you handled him following you shows how far you have come.Good for you.

I used to sent a picture evertime I left work or home,even would take a pic of a isle in a grocery store,just to show where I was.I dont to it as much anymore(probably should)but I think it has been helpful.


Like I said I am no pro here but keep your head up.
KMS

eeyore, I'm sorry that need to check is still there, for both of you, but I agree it sounds like an opportunity to further your relationship, and you did great! Can't imagine a better way.

I can't even figure out how to link a thread, let alone change it, lol. Sorry.