I haven't read it. It does sound interesting. I will look it up. Luckily, I think my H and I have come to a point in our M where neither one of us would stand for that kind of behavior anymore.

HTM

Have you guys read the thread on EN from youngandlearning? She's a perfect example of the abuse victim's mindset. In the end, she gave up on us because we expected more from her than she was willing to give. In other words, she most likely went back to her abusive fiance for the third or fourth time since she started posting. She admitted she was ashamed, but couldn't help herself.

I remember my boyfriend in high school, he was 3 years older than me. When I was a senior, he told me that he didn't think I was mature enough for him. He could be dating college girls, but he was still here giving me a chance. But he gave me my 'last chance.' He told me I had six months to 'grow up' or else he was going to have to go find someone better. In my mind, he had every right to say that. I begged him to give me that chance, of course. I never could get rid of him until I started working at a stereo store where I was the only girl, and all the guys there basically gave me my courage to leave him. When I finally left him, he left my apartment once, came back, so then I left cos he wouldn't. When I got to my car, it wouldn't start - he had gone out to take the rotor out so I couldn't leave him. Finally got to a phone and called my friend's dad. But through it all, I didn't realize, had no idea, how bad he was. Cos I was stuck in the middle of it.

I'm going to read that book, too. Thanks.

DH and I were just talking about this tonight (what I was thinking about his bullying).

In the beginning I thought he was making a bigger deal out of things than was warranted to emphasize that lodge was important to him. I had absolutely no way of knowing what his involvement was going to look like, because it's evolved over time. Because my parents are so dysfunctional, I was determined to do things differently. I thought it was my responsibility to learn to adapt. For me, it really didn't have anything to do with thoughts like - oh nobody else could love me, or anything like that. Before I met DH I had dumped an abusive boyfriend where I DID have that thought process, and learned otherwise - that I AM lovable.

Now, don't throw things at me, lol. I'm being honest...for me it really was a misguided attempt at having a healthy marriage. I made a HUGE mistake by ignoring what he was saying, squashing down my own thoughts/emotions to accomodate him. I can't emphasize enough what a big mistake I now know that to be. My eyes weren't opened to it until his EA - that's when I saw what I was doing and how I contributed to the mess we're in (note: I DO NOT accept blame for his decision).

He and I have a really long history of hurting each other - MAJOR LB's going on at our house. We were horrible at communication, and often didn't communicate at all. I'm angry and hurt at his past behaviors and at him going to that damn meeting, and he knows it.

I'm in a moment right now where I'm somewhat glad for the wakeup call with the EA...I just wish I could have learned the lesson a different way.

FWIW, we're doing a lot of great talking and getting some things sorted out. He very much wants things to work. I honestly believe if he was looking for an "out", he would have found someone locally and had a PA. It isn't perfect right now - it's still very early on and we have a long way to go, hopefully the marriage counselor will be helpful toward that end. At least we're talking and he's being very open and has no problem with any questions or any monitoring I'm doing. I feel like it's a step in the right direction.

I think it's great that you are recognizing your needs again. You sound SO MUCH like me. I had the abusive boyfriend that was so hard to leave...then I met H and I felt like he allowed (even encouraged) me to speak up for myself. But I somehow slipped back into my old pattern of accommodating, which allowed space for his A. We have never had a problem with LBs all the time, but we are working together now.

I think if you can help your H to understand that you are trying to rebuild your M and you want him to help too, he may be more willing. Watching your H's actions is how you can know he is committed.

Have you read the book Surviving an Affair? It was VERY helpful for me...and I think it addresses EAs as well as PAs. The other book that has really helped us is His Needs, Her Needs. It gives insight into WHAT each others needs are and ways to meet those needs. If your H is willing to work on the books with you, it might give you some added information to work with.

HTM

Yeah looking back I can't believe I made that mistake. I don't have a good example of what marriage is supposed to be like, so I'm kind of winging it (I know - who isn't?). All I knew is I wanted my marriage to be different from my parents' - my mother is extremely emotionally/verbally abusive to those around her, and I didn't want what their marriage is. Hindsight really is 20/20.

DH wants this to work as much as I do and he's been really receptive. I know that not everyone would agree, but for right now I don't think trying to force him to quit something is the solution for us - it just totally got us into a power struggle. He is willing, however, to radically modify how he does things - no more going to the bar after meetings (which is how he met the OW - socializing with her BF after a lodge meeting at a bar), bringing me along to stuff - he's even putting the group I had the biggest issue with on the back burner. He would have an overnight event with them twice a year. He's scrapping one of those in exchange for an overnight event we both go to, and he willingly agreed to not stay overnight for the other one. This is just some of the stuff that he's changing.

I fully plan on ordering both of the books you mentioned - I just have to wait until I get paid on Friday. Like you said - the abusive boyfriend was so hard to leave. I wasted 7 years of my life with him.

I'm grateful for the lesson this has taught me. I still have a very long road ahead of me as far as us healing our marriage, and me healing the emotional damage from his EA. This is by far the most painful thing I've ever gone through in my entire life, but at the same time, had the EA turned physical I wouldn't have been able to attempt reconciliation, I don't think. This was enough to get me to open my eyes to see where I was making mistakes without (hopefully) completely destroying my marriage. DH has that attitude too - we've been talking a LOT. Probably more than we ever have, and it feels like we've got a good start so far. I really hope we can keep the momentum going because we really do love each other.

I had originally posted something similar over on the general questions board as well, and a couple people just insisted on trying to debate about freemasonry, rather than be helpful about my situation. I appreciate that not coming up here because that's not what I came here for - I'm in enough pain as it is without having to try to defend myself too, ya know?

Sounds like you could just find ways to ENHANCE your skills in M...even with the A, that's the thing that my H and I are working on the most. We are finding ways to meet each others needs in a more conscious style. We are aware of the time that we dedicate to each other and we try to make it meaningful. I think laziness sometimes takes over in M.

As for conversation, yeah, you know a lot about your H, but maybe not everything. Have you done the Personal History Questionnaire? I thought I knew my H, but there was lots more to learn. I've also started reading about HIS favorite subjects to give me more to talk with him about...it's amazing how much you can learn about media consoles if you really look.

bs, try your local library. That's where I get a lot of these books.

That's a great idea - I'll have to do that. Thanks!

How are you doing today?

HTM

I'm up & down. I don't feel like he fully gets how this has impacted me. It's been less than 3 weeks and I've lost 8 lbs. I'm forcing myself to eat but I'm nauseous all the time, so it's hard. Anxiety is through the roof - and when his phone rings or he gets on the computer my heart starts pounding. He doesn't seem to think that what he did was cheating - he acknowledges he "wronged" me, but seems to think cheating only involves sexual contact. He admitted this EA was probably heading towards a PA - so how in the heck he doesn't see this as cheating is beyond me. I guess he's in denial. I can't help but think of what he was doing (if you catch my drift) in response to the things she texted him, and him fantasizing about her. I know I shouldn't do that to myself but I can't help my mind from going there.

All those moments she stole, that he gave away. That's what kills me. Our anniversary, Christmas, Valentine's Day, my birthday, his birthday....he was involved with her and she was on his mind - he wasn't totally mine. Sometimes I think I ought to have an affair just to give him a taste of his own medicine - so he can hurt like I hurt. I wouldn't really go out and do that, but it does enter my mind sometimes.

wow, i know how you feel.
i found out in oct '07 the day after our amazing cruise to hawaii. now all the memory of hawaii is gone, i hate it. he was calling her all the time from there. i thought he was calling work about work.

anyway i too lost 40 lbs, had nervous breakdown, he knew it because he saw me. he thought i was faking it. anything i said to him, he didn't believe. but everything she said to him, he believed. my birthday, thanksgiving, christmas, new years, valentine, mothers day, my son rotc inspection ceremony, rotc year end acheivement ceremony, military ball, prom. (came, gone, ruined).... he didn't care. (and no my son didn't go to his military ball and his prom).

my life was ripped apart. someone else was in my h thoughts. he protected her, and belittled me. i was thrown out to the curb.

the one question even after reading surviving an affair.
if we are the one that was so badly beaten, why put in love banks. i just want to take a 2X4 and bash his head in. boy would i be making a lovebust there. why are we the one that has to put in the love banks and avoid lovebust.

I Dont Get It.....when the WS didn't care about BS.
This is worse than death and the WS don't get it.
That pisses me off to no degree.

Please help me on this........because every day i seem to get angrier and angrier...

I had a dream in the first few weeks after d-day that my H told me that our second child wasn't mine...it was OWs. Of course this was impossible, not only because I gave birth to him, but also because he was born before we knew OW. But it was a clear picture of my mind trying to figure out what OW had stolen from me and what was still mine.

I still struggle with that. I ran across a picture that I know OW was there...and I HATE the picture for it, but it is a picture that I love of my H and DS and I refuse to get rid of it because then somehow I feel like OW stole that moment from me.

Some things you have to accept as gone forever. Some things you can stake a claim on and fight for. Some things you will have to try to reclaim one way or another. It's not fair and it's something that can easily bring me to anger (a feeling I have trouble finding).

There is no easy answer. You were violated. Your past WAS stolen from you. Hold on to the things that were good for you and fight!

HTM

Is there any hope for his ongoing selfishness though? He seems willing to recognize selfish behaviors when I call him on them and seems genuinely remorseful - but he can't yet recognize it on his own. He was taught to be selfish - his mother is as well.

Yes, if he's interested in changing. If so, you two can work out a system. Maybe a hand signal when he does something that he wants to change. Or plan to meet once a week and talk about such things.

It's a habit that your H has learned and unlearning it takes time. I had a piano teacher once who told me that every time I made a mistake, I had to do it correctly ten times to erase that mistake from my memory. I think that's about right.

I like the idea of a signal. My H and I use one for when I get on a roll in a conversation and he needs me to stop...he says "runaway train." I think the trick with a signal is that you both must understand the meaning of the signal. H needs to understand that you are giving him the signal when you are feeling hurt by his actions...you are not giving him the signal in an attempt to TEACH him the right way to do something (that would be disrespectful).

HTM

That's a good idea, I like the signal suggestion.

I know we have a lonnnnnnnnng road ahead - I mean it's only been 3 weeks since d-day. He's trying, but he's limiting how much he's willing to try. He says if I make him give up any aspect of lodge, I'm being vindictive. I think I've been pretty freaking generous (maybe TOO generous). He's willing to do anything else but give up any aspect of lodge. I think he's being selfish. He's willing to cut it down to almost nothing, but not give it up permanently. That's been the crux of our problem all along - him putting lodge above me. I know he loves me, but battling a lifetime of self-centerdness is going to be tough I think.

IDK, it's so hard to know what's right sometimes.

I would say that for now you might need to shelf the lodge discussion. It's just a big LB right now and since he's cut it way back, he is making some effort.

Work on everything else. If your H is showing you through his actions that he is committed to recovery in every other way, then I would wait on the lodge discussion.

You are so early in recovery. Your H is still foggy and is going to balk at the new expectations...he sees them as restrictions because he doesn't get that they are protective measures yet.

Work on your 15 hours of fun a week meeting each others ENs. Work on the other basic principles...being honest, accounting for time, agreeing on things together (POJA)...with time your H will probably see that there is a reason for leaving the lodge. And in time, you may find a place where you are more comfortable with his participation.

Give it time.

HTM

Thanks. I think that's what I needed to hear.

He is making HUGE efforts in every other way. I'm just afraid of things going back to the way they were. I guess if I keep harping on it though that's exactly what'll happen.

Consider if you lived to play piano. It gives you joy. You've done it all your life. You play every day. You can't even imagine being in a house with no piano. One day, you find out your H secretly hates the piano. It brings back bad memories, and makes him miserable every time he hears you play it. He finally tells you, and says he can't be with you any more if piano is going to be that important to you - he just can't love that person who puts piano above everything.

So you compromise. You promise you'll never play it again when he's home. Your together time will be about both of you. He stills hates seeing that piano, cos he knows you still play it, but he can deal with it because he loves you and doesn't want to crush you, he just doesn't want to be in pain.

So is the compromise a good one?

Here's what he offered up:

~ He would normally go on two overnight Jester events a year. He said he'd substitute one, for an overnight event that WE go to through the grand lodge. The other one (which is always local), he'd go do his part in their event, maybe hang out for a little while, then come home - he'd be gone a few hours rather than 2 days. He also volunteered to bring me to ladies' functions to acquaint me with the group.

~ He'd skip Thursday night lodge meetings at least through the end of the year, at which time we'll re-evaluate. He met the OW, if you recall, hanging out at the bar w/her BF (another mason) after a Thursday night lodge meeting.

~ He'll stop going to the bar after any lodge event, at least temporarily, and knows I may require this permanently (and doesn't seem to have an issue with it).

~ He has a handful of events coming up (local), and says he'll go and come right home (which will equate to a few hours each time). We'll also look at me going with him to overnight lodge visitations, which are a required part of him moving up through the grand lodge line.

~ He also volunteered to start bringing me to more events overall to try to make this more of a mutual event rather than a "him" event.

~ He also agreed to the POJA, being 100% accountable for his whereabouts, he's been totally transparent about his cell (I check online and I can check his phone with no argument from him), and I monitor his email with no argument from him. I also installed keylogging software (he doesn't know), and he's hardly been on the computer since d-day. He's been far more receptive too when I talk to him than he was pre d-day, he also seems to be much more honest. He's answered every question regarding OW without attitude and has been very forthright - no hesitation. Before he would do everything he could to cover up even the smallest stuff. So far everything he's told me has checked out.

~ He wants us to do things together, where before we didn't. He willingly took the EN questionnaire and says (though yet has to do) he'll come to this site and read up.

Now when I posted this over on the General Discussion board, a couple people were telling me I didn't expose enough (him, my brother, OW boyfriend, and OW), and that I should make him quit lodge altogether, along with the debate about freemasonry in general (which obviously, I didn't come here to do). I disagreed with that because I knew doing those things would further inflame the situation and he'd just dig in his heels. He gave up ALL contact with OW immediately (which was easier because she lives several states away), and had he not done that, then yes, I would at least do more exposure, if not require he quit all of lodge altogether as well. She even texted him two days after he called her and ended things, and he texted back "we can't talk anymore - ever." There has been no attempted contact on either side. It probably helps that I blocked her number from texting him, but still.

The Jesters has always been a thorn in our side because of some rumors going around and I didn't like him going away for 2 days to drink & gamble, but he's making radical changes toward that. He says he's not willing to totally give it up though because it's by invite-only, and being invited is an honor, and he'd been working toward it for years. He says that by making those changes I mentioned, along with bringing me to the ladies' programs that he thinks I'll become more comfortable with it because I'll see there's nothing to be afraid of.

So maybe (very possibly), my feeling like he's still taking advantage is really fear that he'll take advantage, because that's how it's always been. Partly because of him and partly because I allowed it - and I really do want this to work, so anything resembling like old habits freaks me out. So am I being unreasonable by feeling dissatisfied that he hasn't quit the Jesters?

Whew! Sorry so long, lol.