[note: moved from "Just Found Out" forum to here for more advice]

Is this the end? How do you know when it's over?

Recently, I had to use my wife's cell phone to make a quick call and discovered some flirting text messages with another man. After looking at our phone bill, it was clear that they had been talking at length and texting back and forth for a while, especially when I was out of town on business trips. My job consumed a lot of time and required extensive travel.

Through a series of conversations and email exchanges with her, I learned that she had engaged in multiple PAs in the past. I had only known some of the details of only one and had not known anything about the others at all. During these exchanges, she also expressed a desire for us to explore the possibility of an open marriage and stated that she has believed in the validity of this approach to marriage since early in her adult life.

She also described one of her closest female friends who was in a long term marriage but who had signed a written marital contract that included the option to have other 'relations'. Another one of her friends is in a marriage where the spouses live apart but hang out with each other every now and then. Many of her other friends like to get together and have bonfires on the autumn and spring equinoxes.

After the "crisis" period had passed surrounding my discovery of her text messages and phone calls, she told me that she would have not further contact with the OM. That was a lie. She continued to have very explicit email exchanges with him for three more months until he broke off the relationship. I now know that he was in our home on at least one time when I was out of town on business, but she claims that our younger children were present as were other kids and that "nothing happened". This visit happened prior to my discovery of the text messages.

Why am I still married? It would be very damaging to my children for us to divorce. Also, I'm at a loss about how to move in such a different direction after so many years.

Part of me doubts the long-term viability of our marriage. I do not trust her at all. We no longer say "I love you" to each other. We just have both gotten to be quite good at pretending to be married in front of others including our kids. We have a very healthy physical relationship in our private time with each other. Still, it all is very unfulfilling and just doesn't feel "right".

I'm stuck and don't know what to do. Any ideas? The questions at the beginning of this post go around and around in my mind all the time.

In additional to the emotional and psychological toll this experience has had on me, it has also adversely affected my productivity and my ability to focus in my career. I find myself withdrawing and slacking off in a major way.

At this point, I just can't seem to get any traction in my life or my career. Any advice about how to get back on track would be sincerely appreciated.

Desert Rider

DR,

Welcome to MB! Unfortunately (and fortunately) you are in the company of folks that have had the exact same experiences.

Have you read Dr. Harley's book - Surviving An Affair?


You have come to a great place for support and ideas on how to save your M and yourself. Read Dr. Harley's concepts and the many articles that he has posted on this site.

Affairs are addictions and your WW is acting like a drug addict. And as you may know, addicts walk around in a FOG, do anything they can to get their next "fix" and go through Withdrawals.

Hang in there!

It sounds to me like she enjoys being married - at least the security of it, but wants to fool around on the side.

Does she work outside the home?

Too bad she didn't tell you that she's always believed in open marriages 26 years ago.

How old are your children:

One thing is certain, you will have to stop traveling so much.

Well, either stop traveling so much, or consider that you need a new person in your life. It seems your W likes your income, likes you gone, and likes other men, lots of other men.

She may or may not be really serious about the "open marriage", but face it is a great deal if you get to do what you want and are supported by your safety net if there is a dry spell.

My point? It might be possible for you to recover this marriage, but I suspect it will take some serious counceling given the number of affairs. The first step is you have to decide a couple of things.

1. You have to decide to make changes in your life or continue as you are.

2. You have to decide if this marriage is worth fighting for or it is not.

After you make those two decisions I think people will be more than willing to assist you in any way we can.

I will say in all candor, if you don't get "off dead center", nothing is going to change. The first step is YOURS.

Let us know what you are thinking.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks for the replies. Here are the answers to the questions raised. I really appreciate everyone's helpfulness!

I've spent a lot of time reading everything I could find on this website. However, I have not read Dr. Harley's book. It sounds like a good resource and I will try to get a copy.

She has mentioned several times recently how much she appreciates the "security" of being married. Now she is singing the "I don't want to be single" tune. My thoughts are that this stems mainly from a growing sense of what it would mean for her to really support herself more than from any real love for me.

She has fairly limited work experience. Maybe a total of one year during the early years of our marriage. I have provided everything else. Maybe that was a mistake on my part.

I agree with the "too bad she didn't tell you that she's always believed in open marriages 26 years ago" comment. Most of her affairs happened early in our marriage but I am now learning that she is going back to the same kind of thing again. This time I don't think it (the affair) can be chocked up to being a young adult. She also wrote to her most recent OM that she never really felt like there was anything wrong with the "beautiful experiences" with her early affairs.

Our children are 25 (daughter), 17 (daughter), and 13 (son). I just cannot imagine exposing them to this and trying to explain how our marriage is such a failure. This is a major stopping point for me where my mind just gets stuck in a rut that it cannot escape. It's probably the major reason why I'm still married.

My job has changed already. I was in a major leadership role and resigned from it. Virtually no travel now. $60K cut in annual income.

JustLearning wrote: "It seems your W likes your income, likes you gone, and likes other men, lots of other men." Yes, this is so true. It is very difficult to come to grips with at this point in my life. I thought that we could outgrow this kind of thing. We were married very early in life.

We tried marriage counseling. It enabled us to talk about many things that we had just been silent about in the past. But it did not really get to the core issue of her infidelity. Also, she has never genuinely apologized or promised to do things differently in the future.

At this point, my gut says this marriage is not worth fighting for anymore. That's part of why I have finally stopped just reading stuff on this website and have actually put all of this in writing. It's funny, but by putting these words down in written form all of this has become much more concrete.

Thanks for the questions. This is tough stuff to confront. I just can't imagine how to deal with my failure in marriage in front of my kids.

DesertRider

I imagine that your kids may already know that something is not right. I sincerely hope that they haven't discovered the affair on their own and are afraid to discuss it with you. That would put them in an awful position.

Would your wife consider counseling with the Harleys? They are experts and might be able to turn things around, especially now that you are not traveling. If she wants to stay married, it really doesn't matter why right now. If she is open to trying, I suggest you contact the Harleys.

Also, get the books - they are excellent.

You might want to give this marriage one more try, since you still have minor children.

How is she as a mom?

I am 100% certain that oldest daughter knows. Our son overhead a really heated argument about a year ago. I had asked her to not argue in front of him and to wait for us to discuss this when he was not around, but she went into full-blown screaming anger mode and he overheard a lot of that melodrama. I don't know if the 17 year-old daughter knows or not. However, it is one thing for them to know and another thing entirely for them to become children of divorce, isn't there?

Our counseling experiences have not been productive for our marriage, so I don't really think that spending time with the Harleys would change much. We've done a good bit of counseling. However, I can't escape the feeling that she is simply using it to fine-tune her behavior while she simply bides her time to find another opportunity to stray in which she won't get caught because she has learned more about how to succeed in an affair. Why do I say this? It just fits with her past actions. She is a very adept liar when it comes to her affairs. The only times that I have ever found anything out came from my own independent efforts, not from her EVER disclosing anything.

She is a really really really good mom, except for the affair.

When I recently told her that I was considering a divorce, she said she didn't really want that to happen because she didn't want to be single. A couple of days later, she gleefully told me that she would get half of my retirement account if we divorced. The way she said it was like she was springing an ambush on me that was supposed to somehow hurt me. It was like I was talking with an entirely different person instead of the person I had spent most of my adult life with in marriage.

Strange days, indeed.

DesertRider

Well, she probably WILL get half of your retirement, and child and spousal support too, plus half of your assets.

Only you can decide if you want to save your marriage. If you do, you must expose the affairs to your children, family, her family and your friends.

Yes, I knew that already. It was not a surprise to me. That was not the point of my post.

The point was more about the way that she said it. It was like she was trying to spring something on me that was supposed to somehow hurt me or shock me. She had the "ha, ha, I got you" look on her face right before she said it. So, I shared this with the board because I was trying to get some feedback on what she may have been trying to accomplish with such a statement.

Thanks for your feedback.

affairs ruin families
ruined families hurt children

reminds me of ....

"He is a really good driver, except for the drinking."

Pep

She may want you to believe she doesn't care if you D her.

But, the fact that she made the comment, in the way you said she did, reveals that she DOES care.

Pepperband,

Yes, I saw the irony or double-standard in the "really really good mom" statement when I wrote it. I'm not really sure how to reconcile the two people that I now see inside her.

Lots of folks say to expose the affair. It seems like this is a lot like exposing any other person who has done something wrong but who lives in self-denial and self-delusion. I'm betting that my WW will do everything in her power to turn this around on me and somehow make me out to be the bad guy because I did not keep my mouth shut about her infidelity. Does anyone have any practical advice on how to deal with that twisting of the truth?

DesertRider

Your kids have certainly caught on to her affairs at some point and are very morally confused. A wayward parent really screws up the minds of children by teaching them their own worldview: moral relativism. For example, my wayward father taught me you should do "what makes you happy" and that "reality is what you make it." [translation: right and wrong is all relative] They teach children that wrong is right, which cripples them in their moral, intellectual and emotional development.

What makes this worse is a SILENT PARENT who does nothing to correct this view. Kids instinctively know that adultery is wrong but when that instinct is not validated, kids learn to DOUBT THEMSELVES and conclude they must be too stupid to discern right from wrong.

I would strongly advise you to sit down with your kids and tell them the truth. It might not be too late to teach the younger one right from wrong.

I wouldn't be surprised if your kids have MET some of her boyfriends over the years. My father introduced me to several when I was a child, often unbeknownst to me.

Dr. Harley's approach is much different than most counselors.

In fact, he's more of a coach, not a counselor. He will coach each of you separately. B/c when MC is done together, couples will fight.

He also doesn't get into "naval gazing", and looking at your childhoods. He's more interested in moving forward.

Even if you aren't sure you are interested in saving your M, I would still recommend that you call Dr. Harley and ask him his opinion on your sitch.

First off, I don't buy the "two people" comment - unless spoken by a board certified psychiatrist.
She is one person.

Ask yourself - why are you more comfortable subdividing her into 2 people? Do you do that to avoid dealing with the very real ONE person she is?

This works for you because ?????????


I did exposure - I survived. Our marriage survived - heck THRIVED is more like it.

Are you happy to live a lie?
If you are - then your way is working.

Who else in your life gets to lie to you/about you and get away with it?
Your banker?
Your doctor?
Your business partner?

WHO ELSE in your life is allowed to treat you like this?

Just wondering ....

Pep

Marsh is right, the Harleys won't waste your time with psychobabble, they are ACTION and RESULTS ORIENTED. They will assess your situation and give you a PLAN to resolve your problem. They will COACH you into marital recovery, if it's possible.

They are completely and totally different from your average marriage counselors, who have an 84% failure rate, btw. The Harleys actually know how to save marriages. They are worth every penny, IMO.

You deal w/ her twisting the truth by having the truth on your side.

And having proof helps too.

Yes, don't try to reason with a falling down drunk. Your wife is an addict just like any crackhead or alcoholic. When you turn on the lights in the crack house, the crackheads will be furious and will twist the truth. They will say or do anything to MAKE YOU STOP!

So, our advice is to expect it and don't bother using REASON on someone who uses no reason. Simply say: "I am sure sorry you are upset. Would you like a potato chip?"

Pepperband:

No, I am not a board certified psychologist and I was not trying to present some clinical assessment of my wife. The "two people" comment simply reflected my frustration and the difficulty that I have experienced in dealing with this new facet of this one person that I have been married to for more than two decades. This same person is now telling me that she has believed in open marriage for most of her life. My reaction was: Hey, thanks for telling me now! Wish I'd known that a little sooner.

I guess this works for me because it's easier than simply calling her a lying scumbag who had duped me into believing that she really believed in being married. That's a tough pill to swallow. My eyes are open now.

No, I'm not happy living a lie. I'm also not happy with being the one who has to break this stinking news, this crappy little reality lesson, to my kids. "Hi kids, guess what? Mommy had an affair. Now you get to be raised by co-parents who don't live together. Can you spell joint custody? J-o-i-n-t C-u-s-t-o-d-y. Very good! Now you're ready for the Reality 101 Spelling Bee! It'll be really, really cool."

Feel better now?

DesertRider