You know, Kiwi, we all have our own communication styles and different people will reach different people.

There are people you will NEVER REACH and there are people I will NEVER REACH. That doesn't mean we are bad posters or that our contributions have no value. [except when we are talking extremes] What makes this forum so successful is a wide variety of posters that can reach different people at different times.

But there is no call to denigrate any poster here because he doesnt "reach" 100% of anything. You don't and I don't. I may not reach all waywards, but you dont reach many betrayeds. Anyone who thinks he WILL is unrealistic and doesn't recognize that our strength lies in our DIFFERENCES, not our non existant similarities.

TheRoad, it looks like the mods have their hands full for sure.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{JEN}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

I don't think there's been a shift and I've been here since '04. Active, unrepentant and downright ornery WS's have always been given hefty 2x4s. So have BS's BTW.

There's such a fine line between "enabling" a WS and "hooking" a WS. JL treats everyone with humanity. That is what shines through. I never felt I was a label (coincidentally, that is exactly how my H treated me as well - as me but as a different me who had hurt and betrayed him.)

I am sure there are some here who think "who cares? What does it matter if another WS leaves - good riddance."

But MB is for all. I have seen some of the foggiest, abusive, justifying WS's become stalwarts of the board.

As a BS, I still call myself a BS has I am not yet in the recovered stage.

I just like to say that it all depends at what stage you are in. I learned it by posting to a WW after my d-day, during one of my anger stages, it took me a while to realise that was not the right way to help if not that WS at least their BS. I felt happy someone else replied and kept that WS around and that he did not leave because of my reply to them.

I learned a lot from reading WS threads. And still do.

Mel, that was a lovely post. Thank you. So true, too.

Sometimes the BH is better off without the WW.

Someone looking to change their ways is not easily scared off. Humble comes to mind.


And I can't bear the thought of a repentent wayward living with pain and regret. To me there is nothing sadder, nothing. Not even a shattered BS and family is sadder than a WS that repented after it was too late.

However, sometimes the BS is better off without the WS.

All of our perspectives are valid and have a right to be.

I can't stand waywards, and even Jen knows that. Thank God for JL and the others that see their good. That's all I can say.

Who are you to judge me? You know nothing about me. Do you feel my pain as I watch another wayward justify their actions?

I'm not attacking JL. Just the comment that us BS don't know how to speak to WS's.

Here is something I noticed early on. I am not good at CHIT CHAT or sympathetic talk, but others here ARE. Some people just need to TALK, they need sympathy, and they need people who will just CHAT with them. They get so much out of it. That is why I have always defended the existence of idiotville and others like it.

On the other hand, I am good at ACTION PLANS. I like to assess, plan and make tactical moves. I voraciously read Dr Harley's writings and listen to his radio shows. I can also move a despairing BS off the train tracks and out of peril. That is what I am good at.

But I am USELESS when it comes to chatter or sympathetic talk. And some people NEED THAT. They need sympathy. Others here are SO GOOD at that and I am so grateful they are here to provide that assistance.

JL, for example, is BRILLIANT when it comes to working with FOGHORNS. He is like watching a WORK OF ART in progress. He can kick some [censored] and make them like it!! I could never do that and I recognize my limitations. I very respect HIS talent in this arena.

I have great appreciation for the different styles, talents that others bring to the table. Most people are bound to get what they need here with such a variety of TALENT and expertise. I so love this place for its diversity and its HEART.

I am not judging you. I was just saying that I have seen JL's method work so often. I can understand why you wouldn't be interested in helping WS's and I can understand why you want to yell at them. I also understand how it must hurt you to see wayward's justifying. It must make you want to throw up.

But.....if you've been around as the fog lifts and the penny drops - it's wondrous.

It's easy to say, keep off those threads but I know the draw to them. I get drawn to the "let's see how many revolting names we can think of for OP's." I know I should keep away and I never post to them. What would be the point? They're not aimed at me. It's also very good for me - it strengthens my resolve NOT to be any of those names ever again.

I agree. And there is nothing so beautiful or creative than seeing diversity in action. That is a living work of art.

SO DON'T STUNT US!!!

Whosoever you are that would.

I will tell you what I have seen FAIL with REMARKABLE CONSISTENCY. And that is coddling waywards and telling them what they want to hear and treating them like they are the victims instead of the victimizer. We have a few PRIME examples of that very thing with 2 recent affair [or deceit] promoting WS' who have been on another site spouting unchallenged fogbabble for quite some time. And getting away with it. They were clearly not accustomed to having the fogbabble rationalizations challenged AT ALL and were SHOCKED and ANGRY when challenged here. SHOCKED.

Thankfully, this forum is not, and likely never will be, at that horrible, destructive extreme. Not as long as there is a breath left in my body, that is.

I think this is important, that we understand not everyone will agree 100% on what is the most painful experience of their life. There are so many variables involved that could make one pain hurt harder or longer, and those might be different things for different people.

What we DO know, is that it is an incomprehensibly heartbreaking event for anyone.

BTW Mel, I am so sorry about your son. I've seen you mention him before, and it always makes me sad for you. I'm glad we both believe that this life is not all there is!!

its alot like watching a dumb drunk come into AA who tries to lay his bullcrap on us. It is hilarious to watch their SHOCK and DISMAY when they realize their bullcrap won't work at AA as it works at home!! They are SO USED to people actually buying their crap that they are in shock when it no longer works!

Thank you so much, keepitreal.

I agree! There are many things I love about MB, but the diversity (within reason) which is allowed here makes it unique among such sites. Different approaches, but never an allowance for crap.

To be blunt, the other sites make me sick to my stomach.

I've been to a couple of other really good sites, but keep coming back to this place because I have friends here.

There is something that bugs me about this place, and I am not going to go into it now...

Well hell, maybe I will.

I just don't get why one would want to study a wayward or why they think the way they do. Wouldn't you want to study someone who is successful in life? If building a ship, you would study what makes something float, not what makes something sink, right?

I chose to learn from the BS's, from those who had not strayed. To me they held the secrets to success. The secrets to integrity and honoring ones vows.

And also, why is a former wayward on a pedestal for finally doing what they should have been doing all along? Do we esteem former embezzlers because they finally stopped embezzling?


I don't get that. But other than, that I love it here.

On the other hand I praise my DD constantly because she is finally doing what she should have been doing all along. So I don't know.

I am sure given time it will be higher than yours. JL reaches some people for sure...so does Mel, and so do I. I have reached some WS that you couldn't touch with your style and vice versa. SO WHAT. Stop with your divisive postings that suggest how other people should or shouldn't post.

Iam...just do what you do and don't worry about this stuff. JL can teach you much...but not everything...JL is no more effective than many of the vets here...you can learn from many of them. The sting of infidelity is a great teacher as well. Experience counts for a lot. There are posters here that think everyone should aspire to be JL...others think LA...guess what...be you. Ignore the fools that want to change what and how you post. The moderators have the ability to step in when things get out of line.

This made so much sense to me. I hadn't really thought of it that way, but you are so correct. Thank you.

makes a lot of sense to me too.

I think BS's find it very helpful to see what might be going through the mind of their own WS. It's a way of trying to comprehend the uncomprehendable. In the same way, it was by listening to some of the BS's here, I understood much more of how my own H was feeling.

As to the other part. Hmmmm, I don't think I've ever been put on a pedestal here, Weave. Actually, that's not entirely true. My fall was felt very strongly and very hard by people here because I was a "textbook" FWW. I, for one, don't put anyone on pedestals. We're all far too human.

I know what you are saying, though. I don't expect esteem because I pulled my head out of my a**. I just ask to be treated like the human being I am.

Bob Pure mentioned that a while ago. He felt he'd lost the "right" to have negative vents on the board because he was held up as a "textbook" BS.