Seabird - you have my whole story basically. Yes, that's it. So please tell me, what is my dysfunction? From what I read and heard already, it goes back to my childhood right?

My H and I basically grew up together. I wish I had more experience but I never did. My H was pretty passive. He wasn't bothered about anything apart from me. As loving as that was - it felt mindless - it felt weak. Weakness turns me off. Always being "whatever you want" didn't feel like I had someone to look up to (maybe I needed a father for that) but it made me feel as though I was the backbone of the marriage. It turns me off. I lose respect. However, I always supported him and encouraged him to do and be more. He always supported me through the changes we went through, moving to new parts of the country to live, making sure the children were okay. We didn't argue. We weren't like that. We always tried to help. I felt that I should not complain and my feelings were selfish and odd. Then I severely messed things up a couple of years ago. Just messed it up, lost control and just damaged everything. However, how I truly felt all came to the surface.

I don't know why he hasn't left because I would have done, I think. I have no tolerance for abuse. So your comment about smacking me around is way off. As soon as I came to my senses with this very clever, manipulative man, I was out of there. Where you get the impression I must want some sadist as opposed to someone confident, self assured etc, I don't know.

I am amazed he is still with me and loves me. He says it's perhaps easier for him because he loves me and always has hope. I keep wondering about that love and why I am not on the same page. Perhaps I don't love him and don't respect him. I too am baffled by that because apparently if someone loves you that much you are supposed to feel the same? Right?

Stellakat

I understand you have been on my H's side so this is painful for you. I am trying to sort this out once and for all.

My H is still in this marriage, he hasn't left - why? Couldn't have been that bad for him right. I never held him hostage. Maybe I would have had more respect for him if he said 'If I don't get what I want then I'm leaving because it's not right'. I always tried to fix myself thinking he was okay and there was something wrong with me. I think he was happy to believe that. Maybe I lost even more respect. Yes, he was happy for the status quo. He seemed not to want to do much. I had to do a lot of encouraging, pushing for his confidence and that was okay but it felt like I was managing him too as well as the children. It always feels like that even now because hey "he loves me and is just happy to be with me". I am not belittling his love but we've been here for 23 years.

We were both immature when we got married but I did not consider divorce - it was not an option - we never thought we were divorce material. Marriage is hard right, just work on yourself and your attitude. I wish we knew someone that could have told us that early on but we didn't and here we are.

We did the best we could with the knowledge that we had at the time.

So, in your opinion I should let him go to find the love of his life? I do not want to throw my marriage away, I want to know if it can be saved even after all these years.

What is frustrating is the implied fatalistic attitude that despite being such a great guy, you can't find any attraction to him, therefore leaving for someone else might be the answer.

I was being a bit sardonic w/ the reference to slapping you around. The use of hyperbole in order to drive the point home that confidence can easily be confused with abuse, and respect can be confused with weakness.

Does you husband know that you are on the verge of leaving him due to your perceived lack of strength in him? Have you said to him, "You are a kind and generous man, but your wishy-washiness makes me want to puke. The idea of seeing you naked is revolting. I'm thinking of leaving you."

There are many men here who have been in the same boat. They can probably offer some advice.

On the other hand, have you questioned your own need for a strong, confident type? What does that even mean to you anyway? Have you thought it through that far? It's not enough to throw that definition out there and for everyone else to understand.

Are you weak for needing a man who exhibits that trait? You can't provide it for yourself? Does he get run over by others to the point that the entire family takes it in the pants?

I have a friend who is so-called "common-law" married to a woman who is, IMO, a real shrew. She emotionally abused him for years, partly because he'd jump through hoops for his XW. All she had to do was invoke their kids and it was all he could do to accommodate her demands. He finally learned to stop doing that and went dark with his XW. She raged and raged about it, but his relationship with his current "wife" improved markedly. She is no longer infuriated with his enabling of his selfish XW's bad behavior. The current "wife" is still an emotionally abusive shrew, but she's not as bad as before.

Is your situation anything like this? Is your H a wimpy milquetoast who lets everyone walk all over him? Does the whole family have to sacrifice because of it? Does he fail to protect you? Take care of you? If you two were out at night and you were approached by a knife wielding mugger, would he use you as a human shield or drop into a fetal position and cry for his mommy?

bcboy5440

Thank you for all you said. I found some hope again for the first time. The hope came with a lot of apprehension of trying again.....smile. Will it really work? I have never heard of those thought processes.

I DO NOT want to take away from my husband any more than I have. I have been full of good intentions my whole life. I have always worked at it but perhaps at too high a price. Neither of us has truly got what we wanted.

You are right, I don't want to lose a nice guy. I am not looking for a sh......y guy. I do need to feel safe.

So what do I do now? There is a lot about respect, trust, weakness, etc etc that I have to get my head around. How do I do that? It seems insurmountable.

Could it really work? I would try again. We have had a tiring and heart wrenching 2 years but could the answer still be out there after all these years. I don't want to throw away what could be my last chance too. Or is that fear and I am deluding myself yet again. I always look for hope.

Well, if that comment resonates with you, then please understand that this IS your problem, and it is YOUR problem. The problem is that deep down you feel sex is bad and wrong and you can only permit yourself to enjoy sex when you are "forced" into it.

Does it make sense that the way to "resolve" that problem is to teach your husband to stop being such a "nice" guy and learn to charm / overpower you so that you can "let go"? Or does it make more sense for you to deal with your hangups? I know it is easier for you if your H learns more "game". Because then you do not have to face any of the yucky stuff inside yourself.

If you really want to stay married, avoid facing your FOO issues, and have your H do the changing, then help him change. Explain that it is OK with you if he is more selfish in bed. Tell him that you would like to role play scenarios in which he seduces you. Go to a bar and let him pick you up. Tell him you want him to have sex with you in a semi-public place (restroom at a restaurant, manual stimulation under the table). Help provide him with some experiences that will help him feel more confident. Once you jump start the process, you may be surprised how far he runs with it. Don't just throw the responsibility on him and say "this is what I need, figure out a way to make it happen".

hold said what I was going to say.

This is all about how your mom raised you; the church environment you were in; the things you wanted to do but couldn't because of your upbringing; the way SF was handled (or not) in your family and your inability to see it as a healthy, productive thing for a man and woman to do.

So what do you do? Here are my suggestions:
(1) Start seeing a therapist for your own story. You may feel there's no problem there, but trust me, there is. If your H isn't getting SF or appreciation or affection or admiration from you, he is dying inside. He's just too Giving to let you know. And you yourself are suffering by not allowing yourself to enjoy SF like God intended.

(2) Be honest with your H. Without blaming him. Tell him that you've been looking into all this, and you've figured out some things, and you're going to start making some changes. But you want to go down this path WITH HIM because you love him, and you should be moving along together.

(3) Find ways for you and your H to reassess what your marriage is. Be open to new things. Consider joining a gym together, or starting a hobby together, go hiking, bowling, sailing, bicycling. Play tennis or card games or board games. Join a local social club, such as a community association and host dinners at your house. Bottom line, you need to start seeing all the potential your H has. He's an easygoing guy; I get it. But that doesn't mean that's all he wants to do in life. Figure out those things together, and I bet money you'll slowly start to realize that he's pretty darn attractive after all.

(4) Once you've been going to counseling for awhile, start looking into exploring your sexuality. Many ways to do that. We can elaborate. But I don't think you're ready for that yet, because you haven't gotten past your childhood programming that SF is evil and sinful.

(5) Find a new church denomination for both of you to go to. Try something new. Something that advocates thinking for yourself, questioning things, expanding your mind. I'm Lutheran, and they're pretty good for that, don't know much about others. Google it.

(6) Finally, push yourself. Push yourself to be more honest with H, read book genres you never read before, try new recreations, take some classes, change your marriage (together). There's a whole world out there for you and your H to discover together, as best friends and lovers. Start today.

I noticed that you referenced "losing control" as if there's a person bottled up inside you that's trapped--and it's only when you let that person out that you can really fully experience your sexuality. Many people have that problem and it is rooted in childhood experiences. That trapped person inside you though seems to desire a fantasy type of guy and any RL guy that you were in a long term relationship w/ (if he was stable) would start to take on characteristics similar to your husband. We all fantasize to a certain degree but that doesn't have to diminish the ability to have a fulfilling sex life with ones spouse.

Your husband might not be the iconic rough and tumble type but all your years together gives you a bond that's way more important than if you were just w/ your fantasy type. Use the dividends that you have accumulated w/ your spouse by having true communication on this issue. Mature fulfilling SF means being able to express our likes and dislikes to our partners and then putting them into effect. You need to accept the fantasies for what they are and happily integrate real life into your bedroom. I think it would be a great relief to you.

Yes, I think there IS hope and it CAN work. Have you read the articles on this site? Many deal with rebuilding romantic love feelings.

You are getting some excellent advice. I haven't been following along so please forgive if this has already been addressed. But were you ever attracted to your H? If not, why did you marry him? He must have been meeting some needs, what were they? I think even if you were never attracted to him, IMHO you can still develop romantic feelings toward him, such that you will want to please him and meet his needs.

Does he commit LBs that turn you off? Does his passivity turn you off?

Also, has your affair been dealt with and has your relationship had a chance to recover? Could you be re-writing history, about whether or not you've ever found him attractive? Could you still be in the foggy thinking of an affair?

For some of you guys talking about "rebuilding", please note that the OP claims to have NEVER felt any sort of physical attraction to her H. I don't think you can rebuild something that never was and that this goes deeper than Harleys MB methods.

Seabird, doesn't every FWS say that? "I never felt "that way" for him. I got married because I was "supposed to". I do think that the question is whether W is prepared to act from her values, to implement a proven program to get those feelings back that she says she wants to have, so she can know in her heart that she has tried everything. I think the InRecovery board may be a more appropriate place for her than ENs, because she may well be blocking out whatever EN-meting is going on.

Yes, that's what I was thinking - this could perhaps be fogspeak. There must have been *some* reason she married him in the first place.

Also: I said "re-building" but I think it also applies to "building". As in, that's how romantic feelings get started, is with more deposits than withdrawals in the love bank.

It seems that even old-time arranged marriages often found happiness, if both partners wanted to meet each others' needs. I know I once fell in love with a bf who, when I first met him, I thought *really* he was the ugliest person I'd ever met. So I do think that (baring unusual circumstances) it is possible for MB advice to result in falling in love, romance and all, even if it didn't exist before.

I can relate to what you're saying. I married my husband when I was 19 and pregnant thinking I was in lurve. He was 26, unemployed, an alcoholic, in legal trouble and homeless (to a degree). He was the typical "bad boy" for this preacher's daughter. Our marriage was not built on a rock. I loved him. He did not love me. I was a "way out" for him.

Here we are 30 years later and those kids who got married back in 1977 are long gone. We have changed and morphed so many times during our marriage that we barely resemble the two people that began this marriage.

My H is now a full-time Bible student in a school of ministry. We have four grandchildren and we have a deep abiding love and respect for each other... now.

I guess my point is this. You can have the marriage that you want IF you're willing to do whatever it takes to get there. If you want to learn to desire your husband, start first with complete honesty. Then get counseling for your FOO (both yours and his) if you need it. Get some coaching from the Harleys on this website. Ask your husband to read a book called "Wild at Heart". It will open his eyes as a man.

Don't give up. You've got the basis for an amazing marriage if you want it.

I've always seen it as my problem. I'm the one that reacts to the way that he is. I have always thought you can't go around changing people if that is fundamentally the way they are. So, I have tried to change myself and my thinking. He has done nothing bad to me.

When you talk about picking me up in a bar, role play, sex in a semi-public place - I look around and wonder who you are talking about. Do you think this is who I am and what I sub consciously really want? It's not what I have wanted or have had. Is this what I need?

I don't see that I have thrown the responsibility on him.

So, if I start 'doing' even though I don't feel like it, I will eventually start feeling?

What are FOO issues?

EO and jayne - I am considering that now, yes. Since my D wasn't the result of an A (that I was ever aware of), I lack experience in this dept. It's my understanding that after a while of NC, the fog lifts. whenifever has been out of her affair for a couple of years now. Could she still be foggy after all this time?

when - FOO = Family Of Origin; your mom, your dad, your siblings... Basically all the people who helped to screw us up into the dysfunctional whackjobs we are today.*













*Please note that was a tongue-in-cheek comment meant for levity. I'm not serious about you or anyone else being a screwed up whackjob.

Dear Whenever

I had this problem at the beginning of my M and my Mom put me down and told me a lesson that made the worlds difference.

God created SF for us to enjoy within marriage meaning that we as a couple can talk about it freely and be open and honest about our needs.

Well I was a shy girl and it took me a long while to get the courage to tell my H what I needed.

My word !!!!!!! Only to find out he felt the same. It was fireworks.

All men have a little bad boy in them. Yours have locked his up inside for such a long time it will take a while for hime to come around. TALK TALK TALK AND TALK SOME MORE about your S-needs. He will not know if you do not tell

When we met my H and I we were both going to the same church. We became good friends and met each others need for company and friendship immediately. We kissed and held hands a lot. Kissing was enjoyable. I never wanted to take his clothes off and, besides, it was not an option for us. Everyone said we were a great couple. We just kept going with the relationship. We had a good friendship. Finished college, heavily involved in the church. I tried to get some space away from him. I wasn't sure why I didn't feel 'head over heels in love' with him. Maybe being away from him I would. However we just fell back together. He wanted to be with me, he was kind and loving. Safe, honest. He said his feelings grew a lot. So, a year we were talking and basically said, where is this going, we may as well get married. Not at all romantic but well meaning.

So, did I feel physically sexually attracted to him - no. Did I like who he was? Yes, very much so. So, maybe the sex issue is mine. I think it's mine. I guess it's what people are trying to tell me. I have the issue - the disconnection?

The affair partner pursued me relentlessly. I was a novelty and it made my head spin. I guess it is the only way it could have happened. The sex was different, nothing caring or loving. Just taken, flattered and used. I don't have any delusions about that I promise. It wasn't mind blowing or kinky or risky (not risky for him - he didn't care). I never want to go through that again. So I don't believe it is a 'fog'.

I don't really know why I am saying all this.

Thank you everyone for taking the time to talk to me - it's rather intense and a lot to digest. I'm working my way through as I'm desperate to change things.

I don't know that it's a good idea to talk about this with your H directly, but what was it about the affair that gave you SF that you didn't have with your H? Was it just because it was taboo, that it was wrong? That it was new?

I think it may be a good idea to list out some of the things you'd like to be different in the bedroom...and be as honest as possible, regardless of whether you think it's wrong or right. Or even if it means your H needs to workout more or something. Make the list for yourself, you don't have to share it with anybody, atleast all of it anyway.

I'm just guessing that some of the things on your list, you're keeping yourself from doing or appreciating because you think it's wrong on some level. Or maybe you don't think your husband would want to be involved in that, or might think less of you. I'd beat you'd be surprised at what really is ok in the private bedroom.

I say this not because SF was a big problem in my M, but because honesty was an issue I think, an honesty can improve our SF...if I ever get the chance.

But the guys who are giving you advice are probably more knowledgable on this then I am.

Here is another thought, is your husband plunk in the FRIEND category in your mind?

If so, that is really hard to get him out of that FRIEND category and put him in the ROMANTIC CATEGORY in your mind...


How did you manage to have enough sex to have three children? Was it good sex? Or just procreative sex? You know, lie still and "put it in sex"?

Whenifever,

I am very familiar with the feelings you're dealing with. I was also raised in a pretty strict Christian home and married a man from the same background. It just seemed natural for us to get married. But, sex seemed very awkward for us. Neither of us were experienced (of course) and so we didn't even know where to start or how to start the dialogue.

I'm curious, though, you have stated many times that your H is a good man and loves you dearly, but do you actually feel his desire for you as a woman? Apart from the fact that men (and women) just need sex, do you feel his desire for just you? Does he look at you with desire? Does he quelch that? Do you think he feels that if he shows you that desire, he'll just be rejected? Maybe y'all need to figure out how to build his confidence in showing that desire without fear of rejection, and in a way you will respond to...

My 2 cents....

Catperson

These sound like firm ideas. I can only try. I was on the verge of giving up.