I do have to say though...LOL if my WH ever makes it home and decides to post on here...I hope that medc and melody bust his chops...he certainly needs it

Haha it would probably run him off though

For Pete's sake MEDC...why don't you just come out and say what your beef is with me instead of taking pot shots.

I think people should post in whatever style suits them. I always have. I just don't like verbal abuse - I don't like it IRL. So shoot me.

I know exactly what you mean as a recovering alcoholic. I get congratulations for just doing what I was SUPPOSED TO be doing all along. Everyone ELSE was doing the right thing all along! Why should I get a pat on the back for just doing what I was supposed to do?

While my sister was working hard in college making good grades, I was out partying and blowing off homework. While other people were working hard, paying their bills, being upstanding citizens, I was drinking and being irresponsible. I only wanted to have FUN and escape life in a bottle, while they were working hard and facing life HEAD ON.

And *I* get the congrats? THE ones who didn't drink like a fish and took care of their responsibilities are the ones who deserve to be on the pedastel. Heck, my great grandmother had 95 years of sobriety when she died!! They are the ones I ADMIRE and the ones I had to learn the HARD WAY to emulate. I wanted to be like them when I GREW UP.

**edit** Well, your definition of abuse is not the same as everyone else's. Some things clearly rise to that level...BUT, you are not the keeper of all that is right/wrong. You and B **edit** on Fatty's thread and frankly there was no abuse there. Your subsequent "call out" thread was immediately shut down by the mods...I did not have one single comment edited on that thread...not one...and the mods were notified about the posts for sure. Why...because it wasn't abuse, **edit** Perhaps if you worried a bit more about what YOU are doing and not others, YOU wouldn't have found yourself in some of the situations that you have managed to fall in.

People on this board take their time to post to others in a manner which they feel will help the most. Nobody is right 100% of the time. But I will say that I am happy to have helped some people here and made some friends as well....even if I did get under the skin of people like you at times.

Give it a rest. YOU worry about your postings and let others worry about theirs. The mods will handle the rest.

Wow.

When anyone has put me on a pedestal I realize it suits their needs not mine. I also realize that at any given moment I am one second away from falling off their pedestal and this makes the relationship at risk for suddenly falling apart.

The need/desire/tendency to put others on a pedestal is interesting. It is a form of manipulation.

"Here stand up on this thing in the limelight for all to admire - this is how good I think you are (as long as you don't make the wrong mistake, in which case get off immediately)."

To me, MB is largely behavioral concepts geared toward a specific goal.

Do XYZ - regardless of your desire to run away/see other people/get your gun and shoot someone - and the chances are your love for your spouse will return and your marriage has a higher chance of recovery.

To praise anyone (WS or BS) when they are actually DOING XYZ for the betterment of their marriage makes sense to me. Because that is how behavioral theory works.

Baby steps - a little praise
Fall backs - a little encouragement & re-education
Serious regression - a 2X4 across the bow
Lying and deceiving other MB posters while pretending to do XYZ ... meanwhile actually doing nasty low down things - I don't ever want to speak to them again

that's my MO - that is what works for me

no damn pedestal - no way

Pep

in case you forgot


Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine. It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
– Luke 15:32

Forgiveness is so DIVINE. {{SNIFF}}

Oh, yes, Pep. It's about MERCY. We humans have such a hard time with that.

Well, Josie, I can tell you that the reason I wrote the Wayward Mind thread is to reach BSs who come here and truly believe with all of their heart that the WS standing in front of them is the "same" person they have known for years. Everyone thinks THEIR wayward spouse is different--they don't lie like that, they don't have time to sneak around, they wouldn't neglect their own children for the OP...but the fact of the matter is--they DO! And the sooner a BS understands that part of it, the sooner they can commit to the Harley PLANS that are so amazing.

The bottom line (IMO) is...if you don't understand how something works (in this case your new "enemy" that used to be your spouse), then you cannot begin to know how to fix it. If you choose NOT to fix it--that's understandable...but for those who WANT their "old" spouse back, they need to know the way affairs/waywards work. Much like Alanon does with people who still love their spouses, even though they all of a sudden need to drink every night.


I understand the point you make here, and I agree.

I also agree with Mel that when a wayward first posts here, they are definitely not coddled. I certainly wasn't. And I do take exception to the notion that straight talk, and some 2x4s, don't go a LONG way in helping to overcome the fog. When a wayward comes here in an effort to recover their M, sometimes it is exactly what is needed. I didn't have the pleasure of being posted to by JL when I arrived, but his work with waywards is amazing as well. People respond differently to varying styles. I think this place is wonderful for BOTH BSs and WSs who wish to recover (even if they don't know it yet).

I just wish we didn't need to fuss over posting styles so much. If a certain poster, topic, or thread causes you grief, then don't read! Move on to someone you can help and be done with it.

Yea, wow is right.

See, it works like this;

1. Harley owns this site and sets the rules. His group, his family, are professionals. They have a professional's viewpoint of what works and what doesn't work. The site serves the purpose of group think structured around Harley's concepts, attracts people to professional coaching and allows someone to vent. If you can't afford the pros, you at least get the charity of what others have learned and are willing to pass on.

2. This site serves humanity in dire need. Humanity is diverse by any definition. When Mel kicked my fundament some time back for trying to get on people about what they were posting, I gave it a thought and came up with that all by my lonesome. In other words, the rules allow diverse postings for a reason. And the reason is obvious if you think about it. Bonk!

3. I totally agree with JL's point; this is an Affair Intervention Forum/support group. We don't put FWS on a pedestal (at least I don't), we celebrate their graduation from a tough school, just like we do those who make it through the school of hard knocks or college, as the case may be. Hey, now they are grownup and we expect appropriate behavior henceforth, right?

Mostly though, people here care. And nobody puts a gun to their head and makes them that way. So I tolerate those who get out of line from time to time, because I know they care, even if I think they are misguided and chuckle a bit when the mods do what they are supposed to do.

One thing I might suggest:

See it is that most of us kinda specialize. In other words, we are only effective in helping someone in certain defined areas. I will use myself as an example; I help BS get out of their FOG, and sometimes I can read the mind of a wayward wife. That is about it for me. Anyway, I don't try to post all over the place unless I can add something to the discussion and that something might make a difference now or in the future. A friend of mine calls that a razor; a thought or statement might help someone fall in the right direction off the razor's edge.

Right, wrong or just there, I appreciate everyone on here who is trying to help their fellow human be a grownup.

Larry

I think I agree with your whole post.

Which brings up something else. For me, I don't really care if someone agrees with me or not, it is the getting them to think that is important. "I think" means to me that someone is using their brain cells instead of acting emotionally. Thinking may not always work, but it beats the consequences of not thinking, right? Thanks medc, you triggered the last of what I wanted to say.

Larry

glad to be of service.

Hmmm Weave...I certainly don't feel like I'm on a pedestal...Not in the least...My actions as a wayward were the WORST...I certainly don't celebrate them, and realize that I could have avoided it all if I had chosen to follow God's plan from the get go...I chose to rebel...The grace and mercy that I've been shown bring me to tears often...

I do think that repentant FWSs bring HOPE to this forum...I am here to try and repay some of what Mr. W and I received here...Sharing just how far God has delivered me is powerful testimony, imo, and I hope that I can help someone...If anything good can come from the horrible thing that I did, then I am willing...

And I am reminded of this scripture...


"I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent." Luke 15:7


Mrs. W

Have you ever fished with dynamite, JL? One can collect an awful lot of fins in a very short time. ‘Course, catch and release it ain’t. Some end up on the dock already filleted.


I believe that is the intent of this site. But I have also come to believe the forums help far fewer than hoped. And it isn’t because anyone in particular is run off. It’s because this place is just plain way too noisy. The real help is found at the MB counseling center. The forums helped me somewhat in the first few months after D-Day 2 because I felt less alone here. But, I received no expert advice that turned me around some metaphorical corner. I simply endured a bit longer than I would have otherwise. Mostly gaping open mouth at the sheer ugliness of adultery. I did not know WS could be so totally mean and nasty. I did not know anyone sans the criminally insane could be as horribly awful as WS are.

True. True. And True. But, and it’s a small but, I no longer post to WS. Not even FWS for the most part. I have become almost obsessive about it. What these adulterers do to others, even innocent children, in the name of their libido, romantic love, infatuation, fantasy, entitlement…call it any dang thang you wish, goes beyond my ability to put up with any small piece of it. The lies, the fog, the sheer ugly inhumanity of it – I do not even read WS threads any more. I don’t care how long an adulterer has had their F, I want nothing to do with them. The taint, the smell of what they have done lingers forever.

Forgiveness is fine and dandy. It is commanded. They owe me nothing. Not even FWW. But I am not required to be around them either.

And that’s probably a good thing - for me and them.

One more thought: the majority of adultery here is what is called garden variety. Affairs fitting Harley’s two years or less - a ONS, a drunken encounter barely remembered, a few months of addictive euphoria…an obvious mistake, if you will. Thus, as 2 Long noted, LTAs and especially VLTAs have no model here for recovery. Plan A does not work – WS stayed in the M all during the VLTA because BS in fact met ENs very well. Plan B does not work because the VLTA WS has long been gone in mind and heart and cutting them off is either sort of what they have been waiting for or they just say and do what they think they need to say and do because they are very, very good at it from a decade or more of practice and just go further underground.

Taking out the OP should pretty much be the recommended recovery intervention in VLTAs, IMO.

For VLTA BS, major personal growth is the indicated approach. Forget the M. The WS will figure something out, or not, on their own. VLTA BS should be encouraged, and actively helped, to grow away from the M, IMO. Loving detachment at the very least. But that does not fit Plan A and Plan B. It does fit Plan LS using an attorney from the ranks of the undead. I rarely see that advised here.

Such advice would have been better for me way back when. Now it is too late, and I blame it on the din that overwhelmed me here when I was so vulnerable. This is why I only post directly to BS in non-garden-variety cases. I tell them to call the MB counseling center so they can get the important information they need straight from the horse’s mouth. I feel so strongly about this I often offer to pay for it.

It may not be fishing, but filleting a WS is a mighty fine sport just the same. It’s just that I find it to be a waste of time. I honestly don’t care about WS any more. They care enough about themselves for the both of us.

With prayers,

I am so very sorry for what you've been put through Aphelion...

Whether you read my words or not won't really matter, as God knows what it is you need, and I have faith that He will give that to you...I said a prayer for you, and asked Him to do just that...

He still hears and answers my prayers, despite my being a FWS...

Peace be with you...

Mrs. W

Yet here you are on my thread. Aph, I know we've talked in the past. I also know we had a falling out which had nothing to do with infidelity.

Luckily (is that the right word - probably not) my H sees me as me and he loves the me that is me. I love the him that is him. In the scheme of things that's all that matters. Not whether MEDC thinks I can't keep my yap shut (lol - that made me smile, I've been in trouble for not keeping my yap shut since I first learned to talk), not whether I'm an FWW or a PQRZTXWW, just what my dear H thinks.

We have laughed together more in the last two years than we ever have. We have talked and we have been happy together. We adore our children, they adore us. Our son worries us, our daughter is bridezilla. We are happy.

I wonder if your wife detects that same attitude Aphelion.

See I don't even see my wife or MrsW as a FWW anymore. I just see my wife, my spouse. and MrsW is my friend.

I think I'm past labels.

Mel:


Dr Harley is referring 2 the comparison made between these things and a BS who's just discovered an affair.

What experience I do have that is relevant here is surviving, nay, THRIVING, in spite of what happened 2 my marriage in the past. Sure, I could relive and rehash the experiences and the things I felt in the first 2 years or so after d-day, but why would I want 2? Life is 2 interesting and wonderful for that.

keepitreal:


I used 2 compare the pain I experienced from events that happened before and after d-day 2 the pain I felt on d-day all the time. Probably the single most stuckey thing I did. I haven't done that in a long time, but it's easy 2 get sucked back in2 doing so by participating in discussions about it! Which was my original point. Why dwell? And when I stopped dwelling on past hurts, I really started truly enjoying the present.

Josie:


It's called "Failure Analysis". I'm a geologist, but I work in a field where failures do happen, and when they do, it's really expensive. I wasn't trained as a failure analyst, but I've found myself involved in some of it, and fascinated by it. One favorite quote from a colleague (though the source predates him) goes: "We don't learn anything from our successes, only our failures."

Forever after d-day, I couldn't "learn" anything from my W about infidelity. She still doesn't like talking about it, but will now (whereas she absolutely wouldn't then). So, I had the BSs and the WSs 2 "learn" from here. And frankly, I learned a lot more about how 2 interact with my W from the still-fogbound here than I did from others like me - who were nevertheless equally likely 2 vent uselessly for months/years on end as the waywards.

Others:

I never could understand the seemingly-endless dialog about "coddling" or "telling others how 2 post." What's that all about?

Pep:


Interesting thought. Not sure I can relate. If there was ever anyone I put on a pedestal, it was my W, before and for a while after d-day. Goofy thing 2 have done, in retrospect.

She'll never be on that pedestal again, and that's a good thing for both of us, in my view.

I like what you said about praise. When I was a pump jocky back in the early 70's, I had an employer who used 2 always thank us at the end of the day for coming 2 work. Sure, we were paid 2 do the job. So, why would he thank us? Why did he feel the need 2? Truth is, he did it because he wanted 2, and because he felt good and we felt good knowing that all was copacetic with the world for one more day.

The right thing 2 do - which I learned from him - was 2 accept the praise graciously, and offer some of my own in re2rn.

Works on my W, 2.

Appy:

It's because we un42nately share an understanding of VLTAs from personal experience that I know you understand me when I say that, although I now truly take my M at face value and one day at a time because I know how fragile the promise is, it's not like I'm on the verge of bailing at any perceived shortcoming on her part. Been married 32.5 years now. It means something entirely different 2 me than it did 20 years ago, or even 3 or 4 years ago (but by then, I had an inkling it would be thus).

I don't worry about infidelity anymore. My W learned her lesson. And I've learned mine.

-ol' 2long