Because it works...

Because people holding up a mirror to show you how ugly you are being is a GREAT thing...

Because commiseration does one thing only...keeps you and everyone around you MISERABLE...

Because there are PLANS here...

Because when you choose to pull your head out of your heiney, you will see this is the BEST way...

You are choosing to BLAME the messagers for TELLING you how horrible your behavior is...INSTEAD of blaming YOURSELF for your horrible behavior...

What is worse HU, words that describe the travesty and selfishness of adultery or the adultery itself?

There is no way to pretty up adultery...It's UGLY...

Mrs. W

Man, I've seen it all now. Here, we have a guy who pretended to be his wife (who he is too afraid to even talk to, and obviously couldn't fill her shoes if he tried), telling us how we don't act approprietly(sp)......what a tool.

*edit* Hu.....your wife won't end up there with you, just so you know.

See I agree with, never have argued that now have I?

I am not choosing to blame the messengers for telling me how horrible my behavior is. They were all right.

My responses on this thread are not about me (no matter how hard you guys try to make) I am posting general observations about posting styles and how effective and not effective they are.

If a posting style is not working with a particular WS then guess what change the style or don't post. Since your message will be lost in the emotions and noise caused by the insistence that your way is the only way.

Let us know how it feels once some other man is reading your kids bedtime stories and calling him daddy.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. Kinda like posting to you. Guess I'm insane.

It's not up to you to decide style for someone else HU...

How do you know that their style isn't helping them or someone else reading?

Swimming upstream is tough going and won't help you or your wife...

What is your plan for that?

Mrs. W

Hu, you have stated that you do like a few posters here, and agree with their styles. But, yet you still ignore what the underlying message is from those very people of whom you appreciate their styles.....TELL YOUR WIFE !!!!

But, I guess you won't like my style, so you don't have to read about this obvious observation, right?.....

It seems to me that a great deal of wayward spouses understand that they are the cause of great harm to their family. They come here fogged into all of their reckless rationalizations that we are so familiar with. They come to examine their initial premises that lead them to make their sad choices. It is the first step in saving a lost love. Our simple explanations of what life and love really entail slowly washes away their misguided rationalizations to help save their marriage. It is a heartwarming event to witness it happening.

Sadly, many are chased from these pages by the venomous replies of still hurting betrayed spouses. Once they leave, they seldom return.

I have come to find that the wayward spouses that participate to help save their marriage are often times scared much deeper than their betrayed spouses typically realize. What’s more, their betrayal of their family is difficult for them to ever forget. How could they have been so foolish? They often see themselves as deeply flawed and unworthy of ever being forgiven. It seems that many are simply biding their time as they wait for their betrayed partner to muster the courage to finely leave them. What a terrible way to live a life, wasted and in fear. I can’t help but feel great empathy for these kinds of wayward spouses and a melancholy sadness for their betrayed partners.

I can’t help but wonder if a major failing in the effort to recover is the failing of a great many betrayed spouses desire to forgive their partner. Sure, they say the words, they write their posts of forgiveness but behind it all they hold on to the trump card and they make sure that their partner knows they have it by occasionally flashing a glimpse of it, here or there. If things don’t go quite right there is the unspoken threat that they may play that card, “YOU CHEATED ON ME.” There is no counter play.

It is a play on “revenge and resentment” that is directed to the one they claim to love. Well folks, that’s not love.

I think I believe that the final step in recovery is when a betrayed spouse just becomes a “spouse”. Unfortunately, there seems to be a great many betrayed spouses who will NEVER let that title go. It has become a part of how they define themselves, who they are and where they came from. They keep it as a reminder that there is a debt owed to them that unfortunately can never be fully repaid to their satisfaction. But what’s worse is that they have inadvertently branded their partner with a scarlet letter.

There was an incident in this forum about a year ago where I was doling out some advice to a newly arrived wayward spouse. This person was still in a thin fog but had enough guts to venture here and ask a few questions. They were the textbook type questions that kind of define what Marriage Builders is all about; still to a wayward spouse the answers cause them to peer into their looking glass, the perfect opportunity. But before that could happen, a string of responses chastised this person with pointed accusations describing why they were the dregs of humanity. Along with this wayward spouse, I too became a target for aiding the enemy. It was then that I was paid a great compliment. I was accused of being a wayward spouse myself. Well folks, to this long ago betrayed spouse, that was some compliment even though it was delivered as a dagger. It meant that my recovery had progressed beyond the bounds of “wayward” and “betrayed”. That tragic piece of history no longer defined me and what’s more I didn’t even notice that it had happened.

It is unfortunate that the wayward spouse that was chased from here may never get the opportunity that I was so fortunate to experience.

Mr. G

Please email me.

coop.r.mb@gmail.com

c00per

HU...

Can you please explain to me what it is that you think handing you "pat pats" and "bless your hearts" will do to help your victim?

How will that even help you?

Your behavior is abhorable...To begin to fix this mess you must tell your wife...It's really that simple...

There is no need to sit around and yammer on about the whys and what fors...You simply DO the right thing...

What part of that is hard to understand?

Mrs. W

I REALLY AGREE WITH YOUR POST, MR. GOODSTUFF.

My H is that type of WAYWARD that you speak of..who was PAINED and SHAMED by his affair...and really, really needed to know that I WOULD AND COULD FORGIVE HIM before returning..and I have and he is now MY HUSBAND...whom I LOVE dearly...I NEVER STOPPED...

Actually that particular WS has become a FWS and still posts here...

If memory serves correctly, that poster is Apharesis (formerly Aphrodite)...She stayed because she wanted HELP Mr. G...That is what happens when someone really and truly wants help...They will choose to stay...No one "runs off" the ones that are sincere...

Mrs. W

To ME...(and its all about ME.... )...

This post sums up MB to a T. I did not always agree with some who had posted on here BUT they ALWAYS made me think. Which was what I needed those early days. I came here for support, which I got in spades, and I came here to learn, which I am continually doing.

not2fun

**sniff** Ain’t love a beautiful thing…

Mr. G

Oi. This sums up my M right now. 2 years from D-day. Thank you for this Mr. G.

And if you're still hanging around this thread and want to check out mine, please do so. This is where my M is-- my H has the trump card, and he's holding onto it for DEAR LIFE. What he doesn't see is it is that trump card making him miserable and destroying our M now... not either one of our A's anymore. And yes, I may have handed him that card... but it doesn't make it right to cling to it for dear life.

I fear that trump card may actually be the demise of our M.

E.

Excellent post, Mr. Goodstuff.

I find it disheartening when that happens. I just don't see the need to name call or, worse imho, tell someone that they should just commit suicide shortly after posting their first post.

When I first arrived here, I was in so much pain and confusion that I had trouble communicating in writing what kind of help I was looking for. I probably would have become hopeless if someone had accused me of being a Troll and then told me to commit suicide for not "getting it" fast enough or responding the way they thought was "acceptable" soon enough. Thank God those people (if there were any like that back then) simply chose to not post to me instead of attacking or berating me.

I believe that the TOS applies to all of us whether we are the Betrayed or the Wayward, whether we are in the recovery process or just starting to maybe consider recovery, whether our own issues are triggered or not. And I believe that it is our responsibilty to post according to the TOS even when we feel justified in not doing so.

Well, that is pleasant news to read. I had forgotten her handle. Thanks for the update.

Next in line please.


That is the precise reason that most everyone stays, for help, advice, guidance and understanding.


You will never know just how legitimate your hypothesis is, since the wayward spouses who are chased off these pages are either “wasted efforts” or “lost opportunities” but you don’t know which. I view them all as “new opportunities” when they first arrive no matter how fogged out they are, knowing in advance that many of them have no desire to be enlightened by the likes of me and I am very much OK with that. No one hits a homerun every time they step to the plate.

Mr. G

HU:

Normally I get along with WS as the discourse travels the path of learning. I do sales for a living and there is a grain of truth to what you say. Where I depart from that mode is when I feel that a WS is jerking my chain. As a salesman, I am pretty good at the feel of a potential customer who is gaming me; is lying to me or themselves or has some other sort of hangup that indicates a waste of time on my part.

I bailed on your thread because in my opinion, you were handing out polished cowflop on a tray and calling it in effect, "Shooting the messenger because you didn't like the message."

See I am a big believer in conventional wisdom, those things that women automatically know about other women and what men know about other males. Something you said told me I was wasting my time, so I didn't yell at you, I just said, in effect, "Baloney," and left.

So now I am going to waste my time taking you to the woodshed. I do so in the spirit of this thread. Although thread jacking happens all the time around here, I try to avoid it.

Here goes:

There are three things you need to understand. The first is that a large part of your attitude is justification. By this I mean that when you look at yourself in the mirror, you don't want to see a scumbag. Or if you do, you use a process called cognitive dissonance to kiss it and make it better. You spin what you did in the best Washington tradition. Others who have walked in your shoes "Feel" that you are gaming yourself, so they react according to their personality.

"Walked in your shoes" is an interesting concept. It carries along the basic concept of "Humanity." And that concept is what I want to talk about next.

See, all guys KNOW that screwing another man's wife is the worst thing you can do to that other guy. I meam ALL guys know it. It comes from having testicles. Yet guys do it all the time, up to and including socalled "Best friends." And many of those same guys spend the rest of their life carrying around the thought "I screwed your wife," with a smirk. Oh, guys do this thing in their mind like telling themselves that the female was "Looking for it," so why not me instead of some other dude.

Which of course ignores the basic humanity of the betrayed male. And of course, those who would, carry around the "Never happen to me" or the equally famous "Only if I were neglecting my wife," stuff.

In the pecking order of males, guys who have an honor system and who would thus not allow themselves to screw another man's wife, look down on a male who would. Since you would, this irritates you. You hate being looked down on, yet there it is and there is nothing you can do about it except posture. That isn't totally accurate, you can do something about it, but that would mean admitting certain things about yourself and changing yourself in ways you find uncomfortable, given that self change is ALWAYS uncomfortable and needs heavy reason. And it takes time and more introspection than you might want to give to the subject.

See there is also the male conventional wisdom that "right place, right guy, right time," and any woman can be had. This sets up conflicts in the male's mind and some guys use their honor system to resolve the situation and others use their erection. Guys understand the nature has played a joke on humanity. Without understanding the chemical basis of PEA, guys know that many women can be overwhelmed with their craving for that methlike high and thus can be had.

And now we go to the meat of the matter; consequences. A guy knows that a smart male wouldn't screw jail bait if they lay in the floor pointing at it. The consequences are too horrific, yet it happens and so does the consequences. Tons of rationalization goes on in that arena and juries are NOT sympathetic. The thought of getting shot deters some males from doing another guy's wife. Christian beliefs, the Gold Rule, love of your own family, and a host of other reasons and thoughts of consequences make up something that is called an "Honor system," in this area of humanity.

Some just call it "Growing up." In other words, acting as a responsible adult. Some guys make the grade and others just make excuses. Immature guys have this thing called "following" another guy. Some guys don't care (new to me) and others barf at the thought of following a guy you know into a female. But if you don't know the guy, you can anonymize the other guy and it is ok. So the immature guy allows himself to go into a willing female with the thought that he doesn't know who has been there before him, so it is ok. The level of connection is sex, not humanity.

Here is the part a grownup knows: to deny the humanity of someone you don't know for the purposes of gratifying your own lust, denys your own humanity. This is the third point.

Guys know that honor systems are developed out of consequences. If there were no consequences, none of us would have an honor system. Being a grownup means understanding real consequences, not the ones we make up in our minds. We accept our humanity instead of rejecting it. If our wife cheats, we try (once) to honor our vows and make it right. And we don't commit adultery even if they lay there and point at it.

HU, you are either a troll or someone who is looking for the magic bullt. I dunno which, all I know is that you are dodging and weaving instead of confronting whatever is inside yourself. I know because I am another guy and I can smell it on you.

You fix this by looking in the mirror and see a scumbag. Then you decide that you don't want to be a scumbag. And you change yourself with an honor system. You cringe at the thought of what you did to the other guy. You take well meaning advice from anonymous people because you know that anyone at anytime can impart wisdom, even if you don't know that other person.

And life goes on.

Larry

Correct Mrs. W. I am the guy who got her to post here, refugee from another forum where I used to post. She is doing ok, and has regained her humanity. She is still in a difficult situation, but coping. And she still posts here both to her own thread and to others from time to time.

Which leads me to:


For me, that paragraph dictates my forward feelings and always has. Mr. G done good there.

Larry

I marvel at these threads. Why do we put so much responsiblity on the those that respond as opposed to those that ask? There is no doubt in my mind that those that truly want help will find it here regardless of the stlye or technique used. The ones that "run off" weren't looking for help.

Ahhhh, but actually you will never know yours either...

HOWEVER...

I can speak from the experience of once being a foggy wayward that came here, posted my foggy ideas and got 2x4ed...Which made me THINK and GET ANGRY...Which caused me to ENGAGE and ARGUE...And one by one my "foggy points" were consistently refuted, so I learned...I got humble...I got helped...If I hadn't truly wanted help, then I wouldn't have stayed, and you better believe I would have blamed that choice on others...that is the nature of the wayward beast after all...Hey, I even got called a TROLL, and still I persisted...Those that want help will choose to get it...

Show me a wayward that is complaining of being "run off" the MB forums, and I will show you someone that is choosing to remain fogbound and has no genuine desire to be helped and change...

Mrs. W