In general I think contacting and confronting the OW is a bad idea. Don't give her the satisfaction, KWIM? And it has occasionally led to actions the BS lives to regret. Unusual circumstances may warrant it, though. I don't think this is one of those.

If he's sincere about working on the M, he needs to write the NC letter (alright, I'll shut up about that now!) and also change his phone numbers and his email addys, etc. If he wants to work on the M he will do these things.

Does he still refuse?

I would suggest you send a letter to her family telling them about the affair and asking them to persuade their daughter to leave your H alone. Once they know he is a married man, that may ruin any hope of bringing him into her family. They will not likely take too kindly to him then.

I would also notify Human Resources at her company and tell them she is trying to pursue an affair with your H using workplace resources. Ask them to get her to stop. This will also greatly HAMPER your H's hopes of going to work there. We have a good template for workplace exposure that was developed by a member who is a corporate attorney. I can post that for you.

Your H's refusal to stop taking her calls is extremely painful, cruel and disrespectful to you. If she means nothing to him, as he asserts, why would he continue to hurt you in this way? I would frame it like this in a discussion.

upset, what do you think of watching him for a few days to see if you can glean what is going on and then having a discussion with him?

Having moved overseas I know there is no physical contact. He also changed his mobile # and a new email address at work. Everybody back home knows where he is working, so it won't be difficult for her to get his new email address - so I will ask for the password.

I need to go for a walk as I am getting a bit upset. I truely appreciate the insights and feedback - and will be signing on again later today.

Have cleared my head from the walk....and have considered how to approach my situation based on the history and all the feedback I have received.

1. Get password for work email. (I will ask tonight)
2. Keyboard tracker on home laptop (done)
3. Discuss with him our plan if she makes contact with him again. Have a proper NC letter ready if she makes future contact.(I know fdbk says a new NC letter is required NOW, but I have no evidence of contact in the last 6 weeks.)
3. Sunrises/mornings - get up with him every morning and have breakfast together. (Great insight thankyou)
4. If there is contact in the future and she initiates it - expose her to her family and her work. Send WH Philips letter.
5. No Love Busters.
6. Job application...If he gets the job he will commence 1 year from now. I have told him I am very uncomfortable with WH applying for a job at where OW works. He knows this and doesn't believe he will get it anyway. He is in a very specialised field so these jobs don't come along that often. I know though that I can't go back to a life where he has daily contact with her.
7. Follow Plan A to the rule. I NEED HELP HERE - Sometimes (now about once a f/night which is better than what it was) I get very distraught about what has happened to my marriage. We had 23 incredible years together until OW came into our lives. I have nightmares, wake up crying and I can't stop - the betrayal is too much to bear sometimes. Sometimes he finds me crying, and I say hurtful things to him. I can't seem to control this - and can't control the nightmares. How have other's coped with the emotional side of all of this????

Wow, I sure wish all newbies were this easy to get on board! Your detailed plan, that's exactly what you need. You're doing great!

#6 - You're absolutely right, you can NOT go back to a life where he has daily contact with OW. If that happens, go to Plan B. Let him know that that is a boundary for you that you will not tolerate - if he gets a job where he has daily contact with OW, then he is moving without you.

#7 - That's what we're here for. When you need to vent, don't vent to him - come here and vent to us. When you feel an LB coming on, walk away - walk out of the room and log on or go for a walk (I like how you did that just now when you needed to!).

Charlotte's Thread is a good thread to read for a BW who had a LOT of hurting going on... who had to deal with ongoing contact, and WH moving out, and having to go to Plan B... and who is now doing *great*.

One thing about these plans is, even if they don't work (and I bet in your case they do, since your WH is in a different country from OW now and you are living together) even if you end up divorcing, these plans help you become a better person FOR YOURSELF.

You are becoming an all-around better person by eliminating LBs, you are learning how to meet ENs and which ENs you value for yourself, and you are learning to be a better wife - if WH wants to be the man who benefits, great; if not, it's his loss. You'll be great either way. I promise.

upset, I would not allow this to hang as is. Your marriage will not make it if he goes back and works with the OW again. He needs to assure you he won't pursue this. It will spell the end of your marriage. I suspect he did this because he is in withdrawal from the OW and wants to ease that pain. I would ask him this.



Part of your problem is that he is still not being honest with you. That is why you are having NIGHTMARES. Not telling you the facts about the affair is a form of MENTAL ABUSE that will prevent you from recovering. Dr. Harley is a clinical psychologist who specializes in adultery. I want you to read this newsletter becasue it applies to you:

Requirements for Recovery from an Affair


Dear Dr. Harley,

I discovered my husband's affair in May. He was very repentant, ended it and has been working very hard on our marriage ever since. I was not familiar with Marriage Builders at the time and I just followed my instincts. I suppose we are in recovery.

But our communication skills are almost non-existent. We only talk about things that are "safe." My husband’s idea of dealing with his affair is to put it behind us. I need to talk about it to heal. I am still having nightmares and sleeping little. I know nothing about this woman, including her name. He has refused to give me the information because he feels it is over so what difference would it make now. He has agreed to counseling but has been dragging his feet.

Our communication skills are so poor that I can't even bring up his affair for fear of "rocking the boat." He will not read any books or discuss the reasons for his affair with me. I am terrified it will happen again.

We went for a few counseling sessions over a year ago (before affair, communication issues) and it was a disaster. It was so much psycho-babble that neither of us could stand it. Where should we go from here?

Please advise.

K. R.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Dear K. R.,

The plan I recommend for recovery after an affair is very specific. That's because I've found that even small deviations from that plan are usually disastrous. But when it's followed, it always works. The plan has two parts that must be implemented sequentially. The first part of the plan is for the unfaithful spouse to completely separate from the lover and eliminate the conditions that made the affair possible. The second part is for the couple to create a romantic relationship, using my Basic Concepts as a guide.

I'll describe these two parts to you in a little more detail.

The first step, complete separation from the lover and eliminating the conditions that made the affair possible, requires a complete understanding of the affair. All information regarding the affair must be revealed to the betrayed spouse, including the name of the lover, the conditions that made the affair possible (travel, internet, etc.), the details of what took place during the affair, all correspondence, and anything else that would shed light on the tragedy.

This information is important for two reasons: (1) it creates accountability and transparency, making it essentially impossible for the unfaithful spouse to continue the affair or begin a new one unnoticed, and (2) it creates trust for the betrayed spouse, providing evidence that the affair is over and a new one is unlikely to take its place. The nightmares you experience are likely to continue until you have the facts that
will lead to your assurance that your husband can be trusted.

An analysis of the betrayed spouse's childhood or emotional state of mind in an effort to discover why he or she would have an affair is distracting and unnecessary. It takes precious time away from finding the real solutions. I know why people have affairs: We are all wired for it. Given certain conditions, we would all do it. Given other conditions, however, none of us would do it. So the goal of the first step is to discover the conditions that made the affair possible and eliminate them.

After the first step is completed, the second step is to create a romantic relationship between you and your husband using my 10 Basic Concepts http://marriagebuilders.com/ca/to.cgi?l=qa080103bc
as your guide. While your relationship may be improving, it won't lead to a romantic relationship because you are not being transparent toward each other. Unspoken issues in a marital relationship lead to a superficiality that ruins romance.

Your nightmares are only the tip of the iceberg. They are but a small reflection of the suffering you experienced when you discovered your husband's affair, and the fear you have that the suffering will be repeated. You have no assurance that the affair is over because you don't even know who the other woman is. You are being asked to trust your husband, who has already proven to be untrustworthy. For all you know, he could be working with her, or you could be going to the same church, or she could be
your neighbor. And since he won't discuss the details of how the affair took place, you have no assurance that another affair will not take its place.

Infidelity is not something that can be swept under the rug. While those who have affairs want to forget about it and move on, those who are betrayed must take very specific steps before they can fully recover. In your case, those steps have not been taken, and as a result, your fear persists. I will send you a complimentary copy of my book, "Surviving an Affair," if you send me your address. It will describe these two steps to you and provide you with a roadmap toward full recovery. But the path will require full disclosure of all details.

Best wishes,

Willard F. Harley, Jr.

Thankyou again. I now know why the nightmares continue - be prepared for some venting at some stage!!!

One of the things I find difficult is that because I know quite a bit about her, I come across her all the time in my daily life. For example - I love classical music (they shared this together); I love art (they discussed this together); I am interested in global affairs (the discussed this together) and he tells me that she "always had interesting things to say" (a whack to my self confidence); whenever I see a woman who looks similar to OW and I am with my husband, I wonder what he is thinking. Just day to day stuff that are constant reminders. In the new country I have resolved to create our new memories together and get rid of their memories.

She also has a common name "Elizabeth" - so I am constantly reminded of her when I meet people of the same name.

I read a thread about how other women have coped with similar situations - one in particular said that her OW were weeds in the garden and she loved nothing better than hoeing the weeds out of her garden...must admit I did chuckle along to that one!!

So, I am going to give Elizabeth a new meaning - the thing that I hate the most is cleaning the bathroom, specifically the loo. So - the new name for my loo is "Elizabeth" because this whole situation stinks!!! (Crass I know...)

"I forgot I had something to say about him "watching" sunrises with her. I think it was schoolbus who wrote about this, not sure. But apparently, talking to someone first thing in the morning, especially soon after you wake up, reinforces a feeling of bonding with that person. Him talking to her while they watched the sunrise together was very very very bad for your marriage. Certainly a NC letter should not reminisce lovingly about that experience, and leave open the possibility of them "watching" sunrises together, remotely or not.

And you might want to include in your Plan A, some first-thing-in-the-morning conversation. It seems this was a need that she was meeting. You want to step in and start meeting this need."

YES - I was thinking of suggesting the same thing!
In fact driving home from church today I remembered this tip (but it doesn't apply to my situation anymore).

I've heard this same suggestion from several different sources.
You engage your man in conversation first thing in the morning every day. In general males only communicate so much in a typical day. And they may talk about something particular only one time. So whomever they talk to first pretty much is the only one they talk to. (One author even advised husbands to try to discuss everything with their wife first before anyone else! And this wasn't just relationship stuff but things like the weather, work, news, jokes, whatever.) See once a man discusses something with somebody (like a female co-worker) he probably won't discuss it again (with his wife when he gets home from work). so even if what he's talking about is not flirting, relationship stuff, personal, it does form a bond and can easily lead to the man being closer emotionally to the OW at work than he is to his wife at home.

As soon as I read that sharing the sunrise stuff with your husband I knew that is how she had established such a strong bond with a married man (little sneak). (Also whining to a married man about your problems is a typical OW tactic too...)

I so understand your being triggered by the things you love being some of the same things the OW wove into shared interests with your husband.

Take it back.
As much as is possible when confronted with those things at that moment pretend she doesn't even exist, enjoy it, and form it into a special moment between your husband and YOU. (If he is resistant or mopey pretedn you don't notice and make sure he notices you enjoying the music, sunrise, whatever.) This is a perfect thing to be doing during Plan A.
Tough to be sure - but don't allow her to keep so many 'shared' (stolen) things with your husband.

AND everything that you can remember being special/shared between you and your husband from the past, Plan A is a good time to play your special songs, display photos, talk about the 'good old days', etc.

OK here is another tip I've heard too for establishing emotional closeness: Do something dangerous or exciting together. Ride a roller coaster, go white-water rafting, book a hot air balloon ride, watch suspenseful movies together, read a mystery novel aloud together... (I guess part of the reason adulterers get so close so quickly is because of the thrill of worrying they might get caught?) Anyway, I can't remember where I heard this tip, but it works because of the chemical high from the excitement being similar to the chemical high of falling in love?

The OW being in another country is a great advantage for you!
Do the best PLan A you possibly can and stay where you are and go into Plan B if your husband goes back to his old job to be with OW.

Exposure of the adultery to human resources and to her family should help prevent him from going back to work with her.

He will have to write another no contact letter, one that focuses on your feelings - not hers. Tell him that it may seem cruel to not express concern for her in the letter, but it would actualyl be more cruel to lead her on... he needs to give her a firm final message so she will stop contacting him.

Oh, and since she is being so needy it might be to your advantage to not appear needy. He might be getting annoyed with her clinginess... Enjoy your new surroundings, make new friends, join a church, sports team, invite your new neighbors over. You want to be as cheerful and active as you possibly can, meeting his EN's, but also giving a clear message that if he leaves you to go back to work with her, you WILL have a GREAT new life in the new country. It will hopefully give him a wake-up call of what he'd be losing if he makes the mistake of going back to her, and will make Plan B, if needed, much more effective if he can picture having fun, busy, and surrounded by new friends in the new country.

upset, you did take away from the article that the REASON you are havng nightmares is because your H is withholding facts about his affair? Were you clear on that point? Your recovery will not start until he tells you everything and there are no longer any secrets. He can have no secrets with OW to which you are not privy. That is how trust is restored and how healing begins.

Update on PLAN A.

WH and I had a good discussion last night. I questioned him about the letter that he wrote and each part that I outlined earlier. Many aspects of the letter troubled me, however the last point about "sorting things out when overseas" was particularly hurtful. I asked him what that meant as it helps with ridding the nightmares. He said he wanted to get away from "everything" in our previous home town and "reconnect with you, my wife". He said he "desperately wants to be happy with me". This is good right????

You may recall that he offered me his password for his work PC and I said 'No' (definately a novice at being a BW!) - well I asked him for his password last night and he gave it to me. He reconfirmed that he has not had any contact with her "for some time". I told him that if she were to contact him then WE would write a NC letter together. There is no evidence on his email that she has had contact.

You may also recall I put the tracker on our home laptop. He used it this morning and he didn't access any other email system either or make any contact with her from what it tells me.

Eyes and ears are wide open though. But -this is moving in the right direction isn't it???

Will he answer all your questions about the affair?


This is good. In order to really recover and affair proof your marriage, he needs to FALL IN LOVE with you again. It sounds like he WANTS THIS. The Harleys can teach you how to do this. It can be done several ways. I will list the ways in the order of effetiveness:

1. Marriage Builder weekend [crash course with daily access to Dr Harley and personal assessment of your progress, along with various compatibility tests]

2. marriage coaching with Steve Harley

3. MB home study course

4. do it yourself via books like Fall in Love, Stay in Love, HNHN, taking questionaires on this website

#1 is the fastest, most effective horse. My H and I went to this and it accomplished in one weekend what we had not been able to accomplish in several years working alone. It will take you approx a year to get through your course plan but you will be IN LOVE if you follow their plan. They follow up with you EVERY WEEK and his staff will even call you to discuss your progress.

You can post questions to Dr Harley DAILY and he will answer you every day over on the MB weekend forum. He is so good.

Yes he is answering the questions to the affair.

He has started to recognise that it was an affair and not "just 2 good friends enjoying each others company". It is a huge step for him to take responsibility in this way. He still insists that it was an EA, and not PA. I have no evidence that it was a PA - but sometimes I wonder. Our SF need has always been good and this didn't change.....

I am going to contiuing monitoring - I am sure she will contact him. Plan is in place to deal with that.

The other huge hurdle is the job issue. I'm still working through this - I know what the implications are if he returns to OW place of work. And all the feedback concurs with my view - it would be a disaster for my M. I'm trying to do everything in new country to try to stop that from happening - including kickstarting my career.

upset, what is your new country? Where are ya from?

I would stay on him until he tells you the whole truth about his affair. Here is the thing, upset, and you can tell him this: it is going to come out one way or the other.

He can get it over in one fell document dump or you will drag it out a tid bit at a time and you both will die a death of a thousand cuts. But come out IT WILL, even it takes you 50 years. One way or the other. But if he withholds from you, every new shred of information that comes out will put you both back to Day 1 of recovery. You will hate him for lying to you and will find it harder and harder to trust him.

So, does he want to man up and recover from one big blow or does want to die a death of a thousand cuts?

Your absolutely right - and have pin pointed the heart of the issue. I have been approaching him with bits and pieces of information and evidence as I have found it - resulting in lots of emotions each time around and taking us 1 step back, rather than 1 step forward.

So, last night I gathered all my thoughts and questions (he knows I have the evidence) and using the analogie in Philips letter (the jigsaw) I started the discussion. I had all of my questions ready - and importantly my emotions in check. I am pleased to say he answered everything (and there were no "I can't remember" statements) and reiterated that all he wants is to be "desperately happy with his wife". I felt we had a good, open, honest, non-emotional conversation. And for the first time for a long time, I felt safe again. He committed that if OW does make contact that we will respond to it together.

We also discussed the job that he applied for... this is a complex issue and he recognised the danger to us if he gets the position working with OW. However, he is in an extremely specialised field and these jobs don't become available regularly. He doesn't want to go back there and doesn't even like the team he would be working with - in fact he knows the other candidates and doesn't think he will get the job. We have agreed that we should stay in our new country for at least 2 years. So - I have 2 job interviews lined up...

I didn't have any bad dreams last night - a good sign. I feel that we are beginning to move forward.

I cannot tell you how invaluable the advice has been (and I am sure will be in the future) from this discussion group. I know I will have my bad days and that there is support here when I need it....it has proven to be my lifeline in coping with this mess.

upset, bravo to you for getting this all out in the open and asking for what you need!

You do understand that the job issue is not one of being "dangerous" but a matter of your marriage BEING OVER? His going back to work with the OW would effectively end your marriage because recovery will be impossible. He will not withdraw and the affair will likely resume.

This is a clear black and white choice between your marriage and his job. As long as you understand and acccept this, ok. But if you don't, I need to assure you that only complete no contact for life will suffice. To think otherwise is to believe an alcoholic can sober up while he is still drinking. The OW is the booze. The fact that he is pursuing this position tells me very clearly he is holding out hope for his affair.

Which brings to my next point. As a demonstration of his sincerity to end his affair and commit to his marriage, will he send a no contact letter to the OW? One which you write together and is sent by you? [I will post a letter below]

If she does try to contact him, his response should be nothing, except to make sure she can't do it again and to tell you again. For example, if she calls and he accidentally answers, he should agree to just hang up.

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through he11. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS
p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

Lifechoice post on THE AFFAIR ADDICTION http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2048341&fpart=1

Quote:
He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE.


I can certainly attest to this. My situation is a prime example of what not to do. I kept myself stuck in withdrawal for over 2 years because I continued to work with my FOM. In these 2 years I had no desire to get back into the A, I just couldn't break free of my addiction.

After I ended the A I learned about the addiction part of it and agreed it was a huge part of it. The scary part of the addiction is during the 2 years FOM and I worked together I didn't even realize how much I was still addicted to him. We did our best to remain professional, but the addiction was still there and kept me very stuck. I couldn't get over certain aspects of the A, but couldn't figure out why. (duh). I thought I had a good handle on it, but in all reality I didn't. It wasn't until after FOM left our employer and moved out of town that I finally could get through withdrawal. I should also add it was this bad for me and I only worked about 6 days a month. I can only imagine it would be much worse for someone who works with the AP on a full-time basis.

Now every time I read where AP's are still working together I just cringe. I wasted 2 years of my time in withdrawal and at the same time for one of the years trying to rebuild my marriage. Talk about a lot of mental anguish and conflict.

My advice to everyone from a BTDT POV, a WS needs to get as far away from the AP as they can.

LC

This scares me - because they are in highly specialised professions, it is inevitable that they run into each other - conferences etc. Is he supposed to move professions as well to avoid her??? That's impossible! I can't see any way to handle this - at some stage through their work they will have contact......should I just give up now and divorce?

As for job app in home country - we have agreed to live in the new country for at least 2 years - so he won't be going back to OW workplace. He knows that if he returns to OW place of work at home I will remain in new country.

veryupset, I am just being honest with you because it is important that you know that continued contact, in any form, will trigger his feelings and put you both back to Day 1 of recovery. We have affairs that turned into 4,5,10 year affairs by trying to cut this corner.

This point has confused me. In one of his articles, Dr. Harley writes:

But there comes a time in almost every affair that an unfaithful spouse realizes that it has run it's course, or it wasn't a good idea to begin with. In some cases, it's the lover who ends the relationship, finding that the spouse isn't living up to expectations. And in other cases, it's the spouse that ends it when the disadvantages of the affair begin to outweigh the advantages.

In most cases, affairs end peacefully and in secret. By their very nature, there is not much of a commitment to hold them together, and a desire to do the "right thing" is usually the excuse an unfaithful spouse uses to end it. But the real reason is usually that the affair has become more trouble than it's worth.

In those cases where an affair runs and ends in secret, there is no NC commitment with the BS. The APs may even still continue to work together, as friends. When is it riskier that an A may reignite if the APs recontact each other? Is it more likely if the NC was entered before the affair naturally "runs its course," as Dr. Harley puts it?

I would have no way of knowing which is riskier, but BOTH are very risky. Both are a game of chicken. I do know that even in affairs that have supposedly "run their course," resumptions can and do happen. We have had WSs swear they hate the OP and will have nothing to do with them who resume contact. It is not uncommon.

Just as with alcoholism, a drunk soon forgets the sting of his last drunk. How many drunks sincerely swear off drinking because they are sick of it, only to go right back the next week? The same with an affairee; all those feelings can come rushing back if triggered.