There is something that is so very satisfying to me to witness a wayward spouse who slowly begins to understand what life and love can offer them. The greatest opportunities lie with them. I sometimes think that it is unfortunate that we sometimes forget that every single recovered formally wayward spouse started out as a self indulgent, diluted and shameful individual hiding in the guise of a sheep. There are but few exceptions. To be able to climb out from such a position is nothing short of miraculous.


True or not, so what? Your marriage is “your marriage”. It is your happiness that should be motivating your actions. And when your happiness is grows from the happiness you extend towards your loved ones, while then, you are really on to something. It seems to me that a great number of folks never ever get this simple truth. Within this simple idea lies the basic concept of why “Giver and Taker” are so very important to understand.

Perhaps you are looking for the folks you know in these pages to forgive you for your last not-so-recent slip? It’s a tough crowd; that is for sure. If there is any truth to my query then my advice to you is to travel the high road and “damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead”. You will never have a regret.

**edited to let you know that I am off to the golf course and will respond latter

Mr. G

When I think about a person struggling with it being all about them, I usually jump to having an unhealthy self-esteem. Not neccessarily a low self-esteem, but an unhealthy one.

I saw a nice little summary in a book I read that had something like the following. Self-esteem is unhealthy when it is outside in instead of inside out. The typical outside in health esteems are performance based esteem (I have worth because of what I accomplish), other based esteem (I have worth because of what people think of me), and attribute based self esteem (I have worth because of what I have). One can also have combinations, i.e. other/performance based self esteem (I have worth because of what my spouse or child has accomplished).

I think the main reason why they are unhealthy is that they are inconsistent and unsustainable. They may "work" for a while, but eventually they break down. They may "work" one day and then not the next.

Men typically gravitate towards performance based esteem. I feel good because I won the game or got the promotion. But one day, they won't win the game, or get the promotion. People plateau, and new people are always coming up to out perform you. So basing your self esteem on performance will ultimately let you down.

Women typically gravitate towards other based esteem. I feel good because other people like me, or I made this other person happy. When they deal with people they are super sensitive and it becomes "all about them" because other people are the measure of their self esteem. But other people are fickle, you can't keep them happy and liking you all the time, and the more people you know the harder it gets. Basing your self-esteem on other people will ultimately let you down.

Attribute based self esteem seems to affect both men and women. I feel good because of how I look or what I have. But looks will fade, and there will always be people who have more. Again, its only a matter of team until one's self-esteem is damaged.

Outside in self-esteem can't be sustained over a life time and is subject to so many ups and downs due to the whims in life.

Inside out self-esteem, in its most basic form is "one has worth simply because they are alive". Its not so much about doing, but being. You don't have to earn your self esteem. I suppose some would argue against that, but I don't see any other way around it.

link to notable post by Suzet*

this is worth reading - it's about self worth

I wanted to throw in my 2 cents and share my personal reaction to ...

THIS:



and THIS:



I do not make a good companion to people who function this way.
It annoys me to be the air in their balloon when I need my air to float my own balloon.
Others enjoy becoming this important to someone else's self esteem, I do not enjoy it. It feels like a trap to me.

My deep and enduring life long friendships are with women with whom I am equally yoked - and I do not experience them leaning on me for their identity or their worth.

I am not for everyone - that's for sure.

I feel this same way and resent being patronized for the sake of someone's self esteem. It irritates me.


Amen..

"The history of divorce in our society is replete with unwarranted assumptions that adults have made about children simply because such assumptions are congenial to adult needs and wishes." - Judith Wallerstein, "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce", 2000

I've seen implications posted that the reason some of the BS's get so upset by what unrepentent, active adulterers post, is because the BS's are vengeful, unforgiving, 'stuck', (jealous?), whatever...

I assure you that although I am still in recovery, I do not 'hate' my WXH, and I am not redirecting that hate towards WS's that post here.

(Besides, there are FWS's who confront active WS's with 2x4's here, obviously that theory doesn't explain that.)

Recovery does not mean there will come a time when the BS will start caring more about the feelings and lustful desires of the WS more than they care about the children that are hurt by adultery. Recovery does not mean that the BS's will stop challenging the foggy (yet popular) lie that divorce doesn't harm children. And recovery does not mean that a LIE will be called a 'different but equally valid POV'!

Come on folks, I thought it was understood that adulterers LIE.
You may as well not make any attempt to stop adultery, your own WS's adultery or anyone else's, if you start pretending that their lies are truths just so they won't get offended.

Adultery is evil. If you have't realized that yet and/or can't bring yourself to say that because you fear being unliked by adulterers (or fear being censored) then no matter what 'style' you use in posting you will not have much effectiveness at stopping adultery (although you may be VERY affective at befriending adulterers and helping them feel better about what they're doing).

My posting style does not involve calling active adulterers names. Very few posters here have ever done that. So why not get honest and stop pretending that ALL those who are being chastised, edited, censored for supposedly breaking the posting rules are doing anything more than opposing evil?

Adultery IS evil and it IS nasty and it DOES harm children.
Adulterers ARE lying, they are selfish, they are destroying marirage/families.

It is not 'hate speech' to speak those truths.

I understand that some people have a very strong need to be liked and approved of (my WXH and baby sister would probably place that as their #1 EN). BUT if they defend doing something vile, disgusting, and which has the ability to devastate children, and THEREFORE they get 2X4'd, they are in effect depriving themselves of the admiration and approval they seek, right? Maybe the ONLY way they'll stop their adultery is if they are consistantly confronted with the yucky reality of what they are doing? Maybe one of the main reasons they continue their adultery is because it is so easy for them to get people to comfort and 'support' them, to basically agree with them that their wants and feelings are more important than their BS's and children. THE most effective lever for prying them out of the adultery fog, their own strong desire to be seen as decent folks, is effectively dismantled any time they are supported, defended, 'protected' from the 2X4's wielded by those who care about adulteries victims.

Call me 'insensitive' but the truth is I am just more concerned about the innocent children that adulterers hurt with their selfishness, than I am about offending those who destroy families. And NO I will never be 'recovered enough' to 'care' more for the adulterers than I do for their children; I will never in any way help them feel OK about what they're doing to their BS's and BC!

And I find it hard to believe that active adulterers who come here are very upset by the 2X4's anyway. They're surptised and angry to be sure, because they've gotten so much pro-adultery reinforcement before they get here, IRL and from media and movies, that it probably comes as quite a shock to them to have somebody not stroke their egos and stoke the justification bonfire that keeps them in the smoke(fog) of adultery.

My baby sister has basically lived most of her life choosing to engage in immoral destructive behaviors (harmful to others too - not just affecting herself). She practically goes berserk if anyone shows the slightest disapproval of her choices or dares to show her the consequences, practically DEMANDS endorsement of her activities. SHE has a conflict: she wants approval but she also wants to do things that we don't approve of. HER problem is that HER choice of activities is preventing her from getting her #1 need met by those who love her. So she gets that need met via illegitamate ways, then pretends that she had to get that need met by OP's because those who love her supposedly 'don't care'... Ah what a clever little justification that game is...

My WXH has taken a different route: If the ones who really love and care for him don't approve of his choices (um because he is hurting us), then he will surround himself with sycophantish OW and adultery enablers who care about his feeeelings and lusts.
He has chosen to be satisfied with the adoration he can get from conning strangers, and whining to his mommy and sisters, versus the real respect he could get from his daughters if he stopped living a lifestyle of sexual immaturity and irresponsibility.

Both unfairly and dishonestly leave out of their whining to the OP's that the REASON they don't get what they want from their BS's and children is because they keep hurting their BS's and BC with adulteries. Even when/if their BS and BC did show them respect and admiration (before the adultery, during Plan A, during false recoveries) they cheat anyway. It is the adultery that started and perpetuates the downward spiral, of them not getting the respect and admiration they use as an excuse to cheat.

My WXH has been castrated and ruined by the coddling from OW and well-meaning family and friends.

He's like one of those frogs that has been boiled alive.
It sure feeeeeeels good to him BTW to be basked in the warmth and comfort of all those folks who would never offend or upset him by tossing him out into the coldness of reality. The more they say soothing words to 'protect' him from his own conscience, the more any chance of him ever actually becoming a man worthy of real respect and admiration gets cooked.

I would like those who condemn the 2x4 wielding, truth speaking, posters here to keep one thing in mind:
The children of the active adulterers who come here are hoping and praying that SOMEBODY will tell their mommy or daddy to stop doing what they're doing. Those children do not want a 'civil' divorce, they do not a want the OP to become their new step-parent, and no they do not want their parents to just stay together and fight either. What those children want, Need, DESERVE, is for the adultery to be ended ASAP, and their parents to learn how to make their marriage happy. It is not wrong for the children to want that; it is not wrong for the posters here to help them get that, even if it means the adulterous parent will temporarily go into a rage of selfishness in resisting that.

I understood as a child of a WP, and my daughters get it too, something that some of the posters here have yet to grasp:

You cannot help active adulterers feel good AND help their children too. The children of adulterers don't exactly appreciate it that their adulterous parent can so easily find a LOT of support and comfort while still committing adultery.
Those children want daddy's co-workers to let him know they disapprove; they want grandma and grandpa to speak up and say that the adultery is wrong, to express disgust rather than 'support' if the adultery continues; they want mommy's friends to stop 'supporting' her 'feelings'... and they want the posters at MB's to confront their adulterous parent with the 2x4's of truth.

Excellent post, MM.

I read this article yesterday and it reminded me of this thread.

Here's the part that jumped out at me.


Doing what's right is hard, and speaking the truth is dangerous.

LINK

What a great thread! Mrs W, Mel, Rprynne and others...you continue to teach me, and for that I am very grateful!


BK, I agree. I think maybe his need to attack (or should I say "attempt" to attack) FWWs here gives him some satisfaction. Maybe because it is something he hasn't been able to do with his own wife.

Once again, Aph, your need to have your ENs filled is showing! Interestingly, though, your posts do not anger me...rather I feel a deep sadness for you and all that you have endured. What I wish you would finally see is that Loving Detachment, while it is good for a time, is not meant to be a way of life- especially in a marriage. One of these days (and from the tone of your posts, it may not be far off) you are going to realize that merely settling for what life has thrown your way is not making you happy, as you would have us believe. I really hope that day comes, because then you can be happy in the way you were (we ALL were) meant to be. (uh-oh, do you 'spy' a sentence ending with a preposition!)

But, I agree completely that other's opinions of us do not matter. We are all responsible for what we internalize and then allow to hurt us or define us. That goes for everyone. Those who can successfully know their worth without relying on other's assessments are the happiest people IMO.

Now if I could only do it myself all the time! LOL!

There is also DANGER in going to the opposite extreme, becoming sanctimonious and self-righteous, casting oneself as superior to others, as speaking and knowing the only real truth.

I consider HUMILITY to be a VIRTUE.

Amen, Mimi!

Meremortal...fantastic! It is hard to keep from being sucked into the PC frame of mind. There are many here who speak real truth, but sadly it isn't found in the "real world" very much anymore. I believe it will eventually lead to our society's demise.

"There is also DANGER in going to the opposite extreme, becoming sanctimonious and self-righteous, casting oneself as superior to others, as speaking and knowing the only real truth.

I consider HUMILITY to be a VIRTUE."

Do you assume that placing the welfare of children above the selfish lusts of adulterers as being an "extreme", "sanctimonious", being "self-righteous", a pretense of "superiority", a lack of "humility"?

Is the evidence that divorce hurts children just one of many "truths", not real truth, not the "only" truth?

Adultery is evil.
Adulterers are dong evil deeds that harm innocent children.

Failure to acknowledge those truths is in itself an evil in that it chooses to defend those who harm children vs to defend children from harm.

Sometimes it is more important to say and do the right thing even if you will be called names and criticized, will become unpopular, for doing so.

Posters like MEDC do break some rules sometimes,
are mere mortals and can be provoked,
but there has NEVER been any doubt IMHO that MEDC was a hero,
somebody willing to speak the truth even if the pc didn't like it.

I think what you are failing to get is that some people just aren't all that concerned about being popular.

Let's see, do we care more about children or about being liked by active adulterers?

Not a tough decision for some of us.

I am a mere mortal, not a 'goddess', not a selfish adulterer breaking hearts because I believe making myself feeeeeel good is all that matters. If that's not humble enough for adulterer-coddlers, oh well...

NO!! I was not referring to YOUR post which I agree with WHOLEHEARTEDLY!!

I'm not sure WHY you went THERE.

thank you.

BRAVO Mere !


link to one of my favorites on this topic

written by Weaver - now Josie Jones

Mimi, I didn't think that's what you meant. That's why I said "Amen!" I won't go into how I took it or to what/whom you were referring, but I interpreted it differently than MM.

MM-you are on a roll...said it all perfectly. I wish more people thought the way you do!

And I agree about medc!! Heroes are straight-talkers who also practice what they preach. Not only does he do both, he is an advocate who helps other achieve that same goal. I can't help but chuckle when the pc police are so shocked and shaken by his comments. He thwacked my ignorance and called me a troll when I first came here in all of my fogginess...and yet I have quoted what he said to me more times than I can count because of how much I appreciate his words now.

I'm not sure if I am considered to be one of the "pc police" because after returning after another long absence I reported a thread on which an active Wayward was told to go commit suicide. I wasn't shocked or shaken by the poster's comments; what shocked me was that no one who was posting on the thread said anything about it, as if it had become acceptable behavior on MB. I was encouraged when a Moderator edited it.

I do my best to deal with active Waywards and OW's (currently active or not) IRL like I deal with them online--with honesty and compassion instead of with disrespect. It amazes me how many I come across but I think that has a lot to do with being able to recognize them because of what I've learned during my own recovery process. I seem to be able to pick out "affairages" more and more too and, to be honest, I keep my distance because I want neither to support them nor treat them with disrespect. My boundary is if I cannot be both honest and compassionate then I don't get involved, IRL or online. I'm not very good with the written word but I've reached several in person IRL.


I would have a different view of posters yelling, name calling, telling an active Wayward to go commit suicide, and other disrespectful behaviors if they have been effective in reaching active Waywards and OW's using those same means IRL but I don't believe that they do it IRL. I might be mistaken, though. The one experience I have with using similar tactics IRL resulted in attempted assault (thank goodness for a short barrier that held). I'm not saying that I would have deserved being assaulted but I was responsible for putting myself in that position and for using what I've learned about Waywards and OW's to push just the right buttons in just the right way. It felt good in the moment. It felt really good. And I felt justified. I wasn't.


And the children that I was so concerned about and the reason that my emotions were running so high? God only knows what happened to them that day after I wound their mother up and she spun out. Although I got lots of kudos from several people, I regret my behavior to this day and I'm quick to say that when the incident is referenced (the incident went on for a while, was loud, and attracted a lot of attention). Many people think that I did a good thing that day but I know better.

And I'm grateful that I know better.

I am glad some of those words got through LaLa. Thank you for your kind words.

LB...you missed the point of the posts...and there is no point going back and trying to recreate it...suffice to say though... a child would have an easier time dealing with suicide than what that poster was doing to her family.

I'm not talking about the "point" of the posts. I'm talking about breaking our agreement to abide by the TOS when making our points. We all checked the box when we signed up.


Not according to experts in the fields of addiction and suicide. I agree with the experts in this matter. I can agree to disagree with you.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Quote:I am a mere mortal, not a 'goddess', not a selfish adulterer breaking hearts because I believe making myself feeeeeel good is all that matters.

I don't understand what that statement from me has to do with the following response:

"I would have a different view of posters yelling, name calling, telling an active Wayward to go commit suicide, and other disrespectful behaviors if they have been effective in reaching active Waywards and OW's using those same means IRL but I don't believe that they do it IRL."

That banned behavior is relatively rare here, and is edited, AND is totally irrelevent to most of the pc policing.

BUT there is also a whole lot of whining about 2x4'ing that does not involve name-calling, yelling, or telling somebody to commit suicide. In fact if the pc police limited their complaints to only the rare incidents of the above-referenced examples, there'd be no feud over posting 'styles'.

Being 'supportive' and empathizing with adulterers isn't effective at ending adultery either. If that really were true then wouldn't adulterers be stopping adultery because of the vast amount of support and understanding they already get?
And even if it were, since adulterers are immersed in a society steeped with adultery justifying and endorsing, do they really need to be 'understood' vs confronted here too?

Sometimes WS's come here, and don't hear what they want to hear, they can still go hear it IRL and the media.

Meanwhile their BS's probably really need to come here to get away from all the adultery sympathizers IRL and the media.

Which is really the greater need? The need that isn't being met IRL?

Also, when people engage in disrespectful behaviors, say and do things that upset other people, sometimes they are reacted to in a disrespectful manner. Not only are the extreme examples that are used as excuses to censor and chastise relatively rare compared to all the more moderate postings that the pc wish to silence, but they are also rare compared to the amount of active adulterer rudeness.

Sure some WS's come here foggy but willing to try...
but there are also many who come here openly flaunting their adultery with ZERO concern for their BS's or even BC. They're hateful, selfish, cruel AND RUDE. They're not exactly victims in need of protection! Whether or not it is right or effective to post back to them in kind, let's not overlook the fact that they are being rude and disrespectful - AND more importantly, are excusing inflicting immense harm on their BS's and BC.

Being 'made' to feel ashamed or guilty for doing an evil deed is not being a victim BTW. And refusing to take responsibility for doing an evil deed, refusing to stop inflicting harm, and whining about posters being 'judgemental' because you're won't repent, are not indications of being anywhere near a *F*WS, that would quickly stop the adultery if people here would just be nice ot them.

Let's stop pretending that the active adulterers who start arguments here aren't upsetting the BS's who post here, or that there must be something wrong with the BS's if they do get upset.
THAT is disrespectful to the BS's IMHO.

If we were at a meeting for people recovering from harm done by drunk drivers, it would be majorly disrespectful for a drunk person to stumble in and start talking about how much fun they have drinking and driving. AND it is also rude and cruel to then accuse the victims of not being mature enough or voer it enough, or of being vindictive, if they are offended by such an insensitive act. I mean there's foggy and there's just plain rude. Does it never occur to the pc police that they are being manipulated by trolls and bully adulterers into attacking BS's? What fun it must be for the adulterers to come here and stir up trouble. What a sick, cruel, DISRESPECTFUL sport.

Aren't we advised to not try to talk to WS's when they are so deep in the fog that everything they spew is fog-babble? Aren't we warned to refuse communication with them in Plan B partly because they will just inflict more harm? I'm sorry but I never read that it was part of Plan B to help the adulterers feel better about what they're doing, to listen to their justifications, and sympathize with them.