A bit dramatic???

It's not like when a BS introduces their spouse they say ...here is my FWW. The brand is there for all to see.

The issue here is that the past is not erased...nor should it be. A former adulterer, a former drug user, a previously abusive spouse..etc, should all be afforded love and respect...but we should not erase their past as it serves as a protection against future injuries.

IMHO, the BEST recoveries on this board are those that have FWS that embrace their past, not as a positive to be honored, but as a marker for the character they showed in being able to change. The head in the sand people here that act as though it never happened are the ones that IMHO are most at risk for another affair.


well, actually, YES...it is a gracious gesture on the part of the BS. Very gracious.

But you said so much more. You said the title “formally wayward spouse” NEVER leaves them. It is this remark that I suggest is at the heart of a position that will prevent recovery, not help it. The past is just that, “the past”. It cannot be erased. As I said previously, the past is our greatest teacher and in the case of infidelity it will most certainly help protect against another occurrence. Your clear and lucid position on this point does not relieve you from your stated belief; “IMHO, the label (formally wayward spouse) never leaves them.” I think that it is this statement that exposes your underlining philosophy regarding how you will forever view a formally wayward spouse as “almost” equal.


But if they think it or more importantly believe it, the damage is done. So I would say it is exactly like that.

You can own your stated position or reverse it, but there is little confusion over words themselves and what they mean.


Well said, indeed, this is a necessary prerequisite to achieving any meaningful recovery. However there are two sides to the recovery coin, the other side belongs to the betrayed spouse who MUST at some time forgive their spouse, not just in words but in the real sense of the word. It is in this arena that words like “betrayed” and “wayward” lose their significance and meaning. This can’t happen if one spouse will FOREVER perceive their spouse as a “formally wayward spouse”. There is a vast difference between “forgiving” and “forgetting”. You can certainly forgive without forgetting although I expect that such an attribute might remain elusive or even undesirable to some.


I suppose I don’t spend enough time here to even know who those people are. I have a feeling that the regular posters who have long ago left these forums are the ones who really “get-it” as they have returned to just living their lives without the necessity to validate their recovery from folks like you or me, something to possibly aspire to.

Mr. G

says who???

Absent erasing the past...the person will always be a FWS. Former is the issue here. The past can't be erased. The marks we have left are part of our resume. For those that have committed crimes...it is called a record ( a recording of what they have done previously). As I said, I liken waywards to criminals.

What is punitive about recognizing the past? How is the FORMERLY wayward spouse harmed?


I can't speak to people that have left...but I will say that there are some couples here that seem to get it quite well.


This is an incorrect assumption on your part. Because you think it...doesn't make it so.

I don't view the label FW as a "scarlet letter" at all and it really surprises me that anyone could view it as such. The fact that anyone would view that label as an insult is telling in itself - it says THEY look down on that person themselves. "FW" is a compliment, IMO, to a person who did wrong and overcame their wrongdoing. That is HONORABLE, not something that one needs to feel shame about. The ones who should feel ashamed are the ones who are currently wayward.

I am recovering alcoholic, but I would never dream of feeling ashamed of that. What? I am ashamed to be WHO I AM? THAT IS WHO I AM! If I deny it, THAT is the greatest INSULT! Stating a true fact about who I am does not shame me. I ACCEPT who I am and have nothing to hide; nothing to be ashamed OF. If i cannot accept the BAD about me, then I cannot accept the GOOD.

I would never insult myself by denying who I am really am. I am not perfect, I have been BAD in my past. That is not good, but what is good is that I changed my ways. I think it is a slap in the face for one to deny who they are. That is the GREATEST INSULT.

I will never forget that I am a recovering alcoholic. I don't go around yapping about that in my every day life, nor does my H introduce me as "my wife the drunk.' [nor do I ever bring up his wayward past] But if the subject comes up in certain circles, I will never deny WHO I AM, the good, the bad, the ugly. It is all part of the package and I have NOTHING to be ashamed of.

As a believer, I'm sure thankful that God doesn't hold our past sins against us. In fact, they ARE erased as if they never existed in His eyes. Unfortunately, man isn't so forgiving.

But let me add something else. These labels of WS and BS never even come up in conversation between my H and I, because his affair is long forgotten. I never think about it anymore. I know that some do, but I don't. I wanted to clarify that I would never hold my H's past against him, but neither would he deny this sordid part of his past if it ever came up. It just doesn't come up. It is dead and gone..

Mel has a good point. She brings up that she doesn't think about the affair anymore, and doesn't hold it over her FORMER WH's head.

Because.......she has FORGIVEN him.

There is power in that word - FORGIVENESS.

If a person is forgiven, that means that the deed is forgiven, not held over that person's head anymore. No, it doesn't mean forgotten. But to hold that label forever over the person's head? I don't think so. Not in my book, anyway.

Josie also brings up a good point. When are we done being a Betrayed Spouse?

Sure, my husband betrayed me about three years ago. I have forgiven him.

What I have trouble with from time to time is recurring feelings and thoughts about it. NOT with his behavior since then, NOT with his commitment to the marriage, NOT with his loving actions.......etc.

Does he suffer under my judgement forever because of one act?

No. He cannot.

I vow from this day forward to refer to him on these boards as my H only. He will not be my FWH. Just my H.

He has earned himself that label again. Point taken. Thank you, to all of those who have moved out of the wayward life, and into the truly married place again.

This from a Formerly Betrayed Wife. I think I "get" what that means now.

Thanks, Josie.

SB

I agree, and I think that we are also diverse in how we define recovery. What one person might consider to be fully recovered another might view as being one of the stages in the recovery process.

The labels themselves might have different definitions to different people. Some might hang onto their "F" because it fills a need or suits a purpose for them. Others might let it go because it no longer fills a need or suits a purpose for them.


That is exactly the reason that I decided that my "F" wouldn't be permanent for me. Working to eliminate resentment is what eliminated my "F" but to another person the result of eliminating resentment might be what gains them their "F"--or their "F" might have nothing to do with resentment at all.

Diversity.

I will continue to read this thread with interest.

I guess it's different for everybody.

I refer to my W as just "W" unless I'm speaking about her A...then she's "WW". She hasn't gotten the "FWW" name yet, because last time I tried to forgive, it was all for not (she was still actively in an A), so basically she hasn't earned the "F" yet.

It seems like it is going to be full circle for my W. If she and I are fortunate enough to move further into recovery without any more setbacks, she will go from "WW" (past), to "W" (present), to "FWW" (maybe in future?), back to "W" (maybe ?).

Hmmmmm...I think both MEDC and Mr. G agree on more than they might think actually...I could be wrong, let's see...

I'll use us (Mr. W and I) as examples...

I don't actually "wear" a label of FWS...There is no shirt or body scarification...

HOWEVER, I do wear the label HERE because I think it is important for people to understand the perspective of any given poster...Notice, however, that both mine and Mr. W's signatures say "FWW/FBH", and Mr. W is the one who detemined when he was a "Former"...I did not push for that, that was not my place to determine...Really, I suppose it was up to him to determine when he felt I was "Former" as well...There is no doubt for either us now though that we are both "formers"...

I would also gladly wear the "label" anywhere that we might be able to use our story to help someone else in our "real lives", and we have shared for that purpose...As I said earlier in this thread, I believe that it is a powerful testimony to share with others just how far that God has brought me/us...

In our lives together, there is total equality in our marriage...Mr. W doesn't think of me as "less", of this I have no doubt...In fact, I'd say that *I* have been much harder on myself...

As a Christian, I have repented, and there is no question that my "heart condition" has changed 180 degrees from that time...I believe Psalms 103:11-12 that say:


Clearly, we are human and do remember our past - there is no magic mind eraser...Mr. W and I have never tried to sweep anything under the rug, and today we still talk openly about our entire history when it comes up...We don't do that in any sort of conflict resolution form, as that time has passed...It is a part of "our story" though, just like all of the good things from the past are...All of those experiences have shaped us into who we are today...TODAY is what we feel is most important...Today is what we focus on, enjoy and say prayers of gratitude for...That makes for a very good life for us...

Mrs. W

I was hoping you would chime in.

Speaking of recovery:

SAYS ME!!! Beyond that, it logical and reasonable to believe that carrying such a stigma might impair recovery. It is in fact a fairly obvious observation. How can you possibly believe that it is not harmful for one spouse to FOREVER label the other with a derogatory term? No need to discuss my own firsthand experience that validates my belief. Of course, you would have to first accept my assertion that my wife and I are enjoying a very healthy recovery. There is much to learn from observing what has worked for those recovered marriages; mine might be included in that bunch.


There is nothing wrong with recognizing the past but there is a great deal wrong with living in the past. To forever brand a spouse with the title “formerly wayward” is doing just that. Further, it saddles that person with a “scarlet mark”, all drama intended. To ask, “how is that person harmed” actually makes my blood run cold.


I can only comment and form my opinions based on the things that you have written. It was you who said that they are FOREVER branded with the title “formally wayward spouse” and you are arguing vigorously to defend that position. I needn’t reach very further to gain a glimpse of your philosophical makeup hence my assertion that while you say some very complimentary things about some “formally wayward spouses” you in fact will never view them as having equal footing with you.

Mr. G

Never used the word branded...that was your exageration.

As for the rest...you are entitled to your opinion....I feel no need to convince you otherwise.

Mr. G, did you read my post that MEDC seemed to agree with? I wonder if you might also agree???

Mrs. W

P.S. I also agree with ML that the "label" of FORMER is NOT derogatory at all...Former means that you have repented...turned from sin...That is not a negative thing at all...

For me, I can tell you it gets harder and harder to put that "wayward hat" back on and relate to others in that mode. I am so far from that person now and honestly I don't WANT to remember my mode of thinking from back then. I do not consider myself a FWW any longer. I am just a wife. My FWH's betrayal is still pretty fresh for me. We are only about 1.5 years into R from his last A. Some day I guess it won't be so fresh and he will no longer be my FWH, he will just be my husband.

It is honestly easier for me to post as a BS on these boards. I find my tolerance for fog and justifications is almost non existant.

This I agree with. People ask and want to know what perspective we are coming from. This would be the only reason I can think of for it to ever come up. I certainly don't ever dredge up my H's affair anymore. He has redeemed himself 1000%.

I so agree with the rest of your eloquent post. But isn't it surprising that some view being a FWS as a "stigma?" The disagreement here might actually revolve around our own perspective of a FWS.

I view it as an HONOR, some view it as a 'stigma." Interesting.

In my marriage, I viewed the label "FWH" as neither a stigma nor an honor. I viewed it as "he's not boinking the OW any more."

Other people have different criteria for gaining the "F".

Diversity.

maybe you should tell him that. I think if you were to spend half the time giving advice and takeing some of your own you may just find a new light in your relationship

From Mrs. W

Do you think that is because you have refused to deny what you have perpetuated in your marriage, the damage that was caused. One day however, you will no longer feel that you need to be “hard” on yourself. Mr. W will support you. One day these forums may lose their significance and you will not feel the need to participate any longer. One day you may no longer envision yourself as a woman who long ago cheated on her husband. One day you will simply be a married couple, sharing love and investing in each other. Perhaps that day is at hand.

Mr. G

Former Wayward Spouse is no more a put-down than former alcoholic or former drug addict is IMHO.

I acknowledged Mrs. W is a former wayward wife as a compliment to her, not as some sort of put down.

I think maybe this illustrates a snag that stalls some recoveries. My WXH's last recovery offer was this: He was going to pretend that what happened never happened. That's it. He didn't care whether I might still be hurt or worried, he had no intention of doing the work needed for recovery, he just wanted a 'get home free' pass.

Now I do realize that there are waywards that are willing to put way more effort into recovery than that. My WXH is an extreme case. But it is also true that most waywards don't fully get it that forgiveness and trust are not something they can expect the BS to give quickly. Pressuring the BS to do so, either by veiled threats of giving up on recovery or pretending to be a victim of the BS 'punishing' them just hurts the BS and stalls recovery progress. The WS wanting to dictate when the BS stops worrying (has to start hiding their feelings) is not a former wayward spouse attitude. It's paradoxically an abuse of power that the WS must first lay down before the BS can trust again.

How does a wayward cross the threshhold from wayward to former wayward? Stop expecting, demanding, or whining; start acknowleding, appreciating, and earning. Your BS does NOT have to give you another chance; MANY WS's are never given another chance by their BS. It is a gift. Trust will have to be earned by the WS's efforts, over an extended period of time. Accept that fact without whining.

It takes time and effort, apparently a LOT more time and effort than the wayward spouse thinks it does, to restore what the adultery and lies destroyed. Take an honest look at all that was said and done to create and maintain the adultery. NOT until you have put at least as much time and effort into rebuilding the marriage do you even have a right to begin whining about the BS supposedly withholding forgiveness and trust IMHO.

Again, my WXH is an extreme example, but I have seen oodles of examples of WS's thinking they can just say they're sorry, go to maybe a couple MC sessions, maybe write a no contact letter (if they REALLY HAVE TO), and then they think they've done "all they can"... and their recovery efforts are like a few weeks or months of effort vs months or even years of lying and cheating!
The BS wants, needs, deserves to know they mean more to the WS than the OP did. This is not because the BS is 'mean' or 'vindictive'! How can the BS feel safe and valued if the WS shows signs of resisting or resenting what they need to do for recovery, or won't even put as much time into it as they did the adultery with the OP?

A FORMER WS wouldn't treat a BS that way.