Some good advice from TTM. I agree that she needs to start her own thread. I have the Schnarch book in my collection and it was informative.

Thank you for your comments and believe me. Years before I married and the saw with other marriages, one in particular, I would never have forgiven him for what he had done back then and possibly not in the beginning of our marriage. Even when he told me what he had done I was infuriated and was ready to leave but I realized that everyone can be forgiven for such a terrible thing and there is no reason then that we could not keep our family together.

The ananlogy, I can understand how it would seem like I may be talking about the XH but I am referring to the marriage as a whole. No marriage is perfect and at times in the marriage one or both is injured and from what I am reading on this site it is important to remember the reasons why you fell in love in the first place with a whole lot more to go a long with that.

As to reason for leaving him there are not 100 but only a few because I did not like to focus on his weaknesses or imperfections and I did not allow his little corks to annoy me the way he apparently did with mine. But the few there was is this:

1. Anger issues, very quick to anger
2. Pornography issue.
3. Infidelity
4. Manipulative and Controlling, which only became more recognizable after the affair and the divorce began.
5. Constantly telling me how I felt without really knowing.

That is about it, that I have thought about. All the other things were minute and frivolous.

I realize I probably should start my own thread but I looked at yours because it caught my eye. I do still love my XH a great deal but I know that my actions and words at times have not shown it because I have allowed him to push my buttons and bring the worst in me. However, I do remember a time that he brought the best out in me too. He is the father of our children and so much more.

You are also right that there is alot of things that have back fired on me. Trying to get him to realize that a divorce is not in the best interest of all of us involved is one of them, or trying to work things out before the divorce was finalized. However, I do feel that he has been out to hurt me because he wants me to hate him and he will feel better about that because then it will justify the divorce. However, in the process he is also hurting the children because they do not like being around the OW as they have told their counselor they know that she and daddy broke up the family. I will start my own thread though as soon as I figure it out.

abenat4

ok, So back to this being my thread.

STBXW was heading out of town to pick up DD. I own an auto repair shop, and noticed from our customer records that her oil change was overdue by 3 months.

I called her and left her a voice message, alerting her to that, and offering to change the oil and check over the car before her trip. Which she took me up on, and then proceeded to [censored] me out and tell me that she was moving forward with the D process.

In almost the same breath she asked me to come over and check out the foundation at her house and give her my opinion on how it could be fixed.

It's like I'm not dealing with a sane person, one minute it's push, the next pull. Luckily I was able to stay calm and not react to her push/pull behavior.

We'll see what happens next.

- TTM

Why did you offer to change the oil? Why not just notify her that it was due and leave it at that? Trust in her judgment to choose to take care of it before her trip? DD is your common interest, and I can see your concern that she rides in a safe car that won't break down.

You: "Hello STBXW... I was looking at your records and noticed that you're over due for an oil change by 3 months. I am concerned about DD being stranded and chose to notify you."

I see your offer to take care of it for her as enabling. On the one hand, it makes logical sense for her to let you take care of that. On the other hand, I can see her resentment at, once again, having to rely on you for something.

My opinion is the same as Seabird's.

And that's all I have to say about that.

LA

TTM,

Disengage her. I'm not labeling your phone call as such, but she could view it a controlling.

Don't go look at her foundation. Let her solve her own problems. That alone could increase the way that she perceives your value.

Disengage.

SB & LA,

I offered to take care of it for her because she paid some bills for the care of our DS, and asked me if I would reimburse her. Our agreement is that we split the expanses related to the care of our kids.

Instead of paying her money, I offered to do the oil change in exchange.

When she was there, I clarified with her that in my mind this was a fair trade, and she agreed.

So I don't see this as enabling her, but a little assistance from a friend, in the interest of my DS and DD, and maybe a little her too.

I do have to be careful about what I do for her though, it seems like it's take, take, take and no give.

-TTM

Ah, details would have made a difference. Let's just say that she's acting irrational.

TTM - I'm still wary that you are over committing to the care and feeding of your STBX. Don't you guys have some kind of LSA in place? What does that mandate in terms of medical coverage for the children? Does the reimbursement she asked for go above and beyond what is required of the LSA?

And the bold part sends all kinds of alarms off in my mind. Do you see how your "friendly assistance" might cause resentment within her?

SB,

I do see your point about my assistance creating resentments, not sure that was what was going on but you could be right.

Our agreement is that we will split child care expenses 50/50. So it was fine for her to ask for me to reimburse her.

I've also learned how to say no when I feel the need. She had decided a month or so ago to take our DS to the hospital when he had a cut on his finger. Then wanted me to pay for 1/2 of the co-pay at the hospital. I said that I would not, because I didn't agree with her decision to rush him to emergency. I did validate her decision and said I'm sure it was a good decision for her, but that I would not have made the same choice. She was really angry about this, and I felt great. I'm learning.

I've also realized that we don't communicate well via e-mail. It seems that she doesn't hear me unless we're talking face to face, like somehow she distrusts what I write, but when I say it to her face, she can hear it better. Causing me to re-think many of the 'conversations' we've had. Feels to me more like I've been talking 'at' her, and not with her through e-mail.

Still learning...

- TTM

Interesting observation on communicating via email vs in person. I think I mentioned before that I prefer the former because it allows me check and double check myself before I express myself. My intention is to be as clear and as concise as possible the first time. I so loathe dealing with her that I don't like spending a gratuitous amount of time rehashing points that might have gotten confused.

Interestingly enough, she's flamed me back on a couple of occasions because she failed to thoroughly read what I've written. Instead she becomes clouded with what I believe she thinks I would have written...

For instance, I once sent her a reply email that started with, "I'm not trying to create any difficulties...".

She actually read it as, "I'm trying to cause you difficulties...". She actually thought that's what I wrote until I pointed out that she misread it... Maybe some people disseminate the spoken word better than one written on paper.

At the very least, I would advise trying to keep a written record of any sort of financial transaction. Make sure that you're maintaining some kind of record that you're keeping up with your expenses to her and the kids.

SB,

I've experienced the same thing you're describing in terms of sending e-mails. Like you I like to check and re-check what I'm going to say before I send the e-mail. However, I think my partner 'senses' this. Like the 'truth' only comes when you're in the moment. She's made reference to this in subtle ways many times. I'm only now realizing how much the communication between us sucked because of this.

My part in this is when I had something really difficult to discuss, I would want to use e-mail, even when we were 'together'. I'm just realizing now, how scared I was to have 'tough' conversations with her in person, and now I'm aware that she doesn't 'hear' me when I send e-mails. No wonder we had such a tough time communicating.

I'm starting to face that fear, and walk right into it. I called her last night, and had a conversation with her, and it was great. We talked for like 40 minutes.

She made several comments like 'too much has happened for us to be together again', and I validated that. I didn't suggest we stop the D process, but did ask her again to read 'getting the love you want', and she agreed.

I'm surprised when I got honest, how wimpy I have been about talking with her, about the 'real' stuff. Great lesson for me.

I'll keep you all posted, some very interesting things happened in that conversation last night.

We'll see...

- TTM

I'm not a fan of email communication in heavy use because it leaves so much too interpretation. However, I've been told and I agree that it is safer. As well, I agree that it gives you a chance to look at what your saying and rewrite as needed.

I think I've come to the conclusion that, atleast for right now, that I should reserve phone or in person conversation for small talk that doesn't refer to 'us', or for well thought out ideas where I know exactly what I want to say word for word.

I've found it very helpful to really slow down my rate of communication to that of my stbxw. She definitely 'hears' or listens at a slower rate than I can talk, so if I don't slow waaaaayyy down a lot is missed, and this leads to a lot of misinterpretations. I've found that a lot of the time, I talk more than in needed. I'm making more room for her to talk.

I'm learning to take frequent pauses, and get real comfortable with silence when we're talking. This seems to help her talk more.

I agree verbal or face to face communication is more difficult, but somehow more 'real' to me, and I would guess her too. I see this as more of a boundary issue than anything. I'm learning that if I'm starting to 'lose' it, it's perfectly acceptable to hang up, or leave the room. Excellent boundary skills make almost any form of communication better, in my opinion.

- TTM

Very well said TTM. I also need to stop overanalyzing and talking things into the ground. For one, it's annoying, I'm bound to say something stupid eventually, should just quite will I'm ahead.

I think it's important to remember that more talking doesn't convince another person of my point of view. In fact sharing my point of view isn't even necessary many times. To many people, sharing my point of view might feel a lot like pushing to them.

A great saying I like is 'my ideas plus 5 dollars get you a cup of coffee', meaning that the only person that thinks my ideas are valuable is me.

- TTM

I've been doing a lot of work personally on my feelings of fear and insecurity, looking at the ways in which I learned to manipulate to get my needs met, instead of asking for what I wanted directly.

I'm guilty of this behavior in more ways than I ever realized.

I've come to realize that I didn't clearly communicate with stbxw what I believed we needed to do to put our M back together again. When we were dating again last year, I kept almost everything that I did here, and elsewhere a secret. I did at one point ask her to do the questionairs with me, but I didn't push it.

I was so scared she'd leave again, that I didn't want to 'rock the boat' at all. What a fool I have been, at least in that department.

But I'm learning and growing. So I decided to call her up and talk with her about the book I sent her 'getting the love you want'. I had sent it to her before, and she gave it back to me, but I thought I might try again. If for no other reason than to practice dealing with her when she's upset, and being strong in spite of my fear.

We ended up talking for about 30 minutes, and she listened and I shared with her about how much I enjoyed that book, and how it changed my perceptions about our M and relationships in general. I asked her to read it, and then told her I would give it to her the next time we saw each other. To my surprise, she said ok. I don't think she was agreeing to read it, only to take it.

It's a hard line for me to walk because she feels pushed by me very easily, and I don't want to push, but I do want to lead. I'm learning it really means totally letting go of what she does with the book, I gave it to her, and what happens now is totally out of my control.

She did ask me during our conversation why I was sending her this book now, when I'm 'involved' with another woman. I explained that I was not 'involved' with anyone, but had done some dating, and had worked at getting my needs met. She asked me why I was reading books like this now, to which I replied 'because, I have to know what I did wrong in our M so I don't make the same mistakes again'

One other comment she made was 'too much has happened for us to be together again', I just mirrored that, and let it go. What I find interesting is that comment means she's thought about being together with me again. Hmmmm...

All in all I think it was a good conversation. I'll see her tomorrow, and I think I'll say something like 'I'm hoping you'll choose to read this, and then want to discuss your thoughts about it with me afterwards'

We'll see...

- TTM

I gave her the book this am, when I saw her and said 'I hope you'll choose to read this and want to discuss it with me afterwards'. Well it's out of my hands now.

She was a bit dismissive when I gave it to her, kind of almost seemed like a front to me, she waved her hand like 'whatever'.

I don't expect she'll read it, and even if she does, I'm not sure it will change anything.

I'm trying to lead us to a better relationship, not matter what she does.

I do sense that she's got a lot going on over there.

Patience, patience, work on me, and my confidence.

- TTM

Hello all,

This seemed like a good place to post. "Tall Man" sounds just like me.

My wife and I are just getting started in a dissolution process which she has asked for. It's been about 1 month since she mentioned that she wants out.

After years of neglect and verbal abuse, I can honestly say that I don't blame her at all. I blame us. However, I keep fighting with myself in the blame game mostly because of my recent efforts to make this marriage survive this. So I'm blaming myself even though I should not and I know it.

When she told me that she wanted out, it was like no other time before. I took it very serious and snapped mentally. I instantly set up an appointment with a therapist and was (and still am) destined to be a better man and fix what's been wrong with me for years. Fix what she's been missing and show her that I want her in my life through my efforts. In the past I have been controlling, a terrible conversationist, I have degraded her, I've lacked in giving her the attention that she needs, and the list goes on and on. After 15 years, I have come to realize that what I am is not who I want, nor does she nor will anyone else.

Over the last month, I have felt so good about myself and so determined to change and be a better man with or without her. I would have rather it been with her, but as of yesterday, she has confirmed my worst fears. She's leaving anyways.

My heart is torn apart. She really is confused and it hurts me to no end to think that her confusion is leading her into a terrible mistake. In only one month, I had done so much. Maybe too much. Maybe I overwhelmed her with the house cleaning, laundry, dinners and music? I think maybe so. But in only one month, I've felt so good about me and what I want to become that I had the rest of our life all planned out. A life of joy and happiness for her and our 2 children.

Still, it does not matter. She's leaving and taking my hopes and dreams for us with her. I'm crying at this mistake I know in my heart that she is making. I know in my heart what I want and it's real. It's a shame. I love that woman with all of my heart and it hurts so bad to let her go.

Last night, I decided to stop begging and just let her go. That was the toughest decision I have ever made in my life! I'll move on with my intentions and become that better man! I can only hope that she sees this before it's too late. I've told her and my son that if mommy ever loves me again that I'll take her back in a heart beat, but I'm afraid that if she's gone too long and I become that better man I so desire, that I might lose that love that I have for her and not want to go through this pain again. I can't imagine that I will ever stop loving her, but I just can't say for sure. You just can't continue to love something that hates you.

I have to move on too. I have work to do.

Somebody please help me make it through this and keep loving her as long as I can! I have to be strong but I have no one to help me other than a weekly visit to my therapist.

hubiscous,

I'm truly sorry for the pain you are feeling. I can appreciate those feelings, I've had them myself. Still do some days.

One thing that really helped me is I stopped viewing divorce as 'final', I decided that a divorce was a piece of paper that says this is yours, and that is mine. The relationship between us is yet to be determined in the future. I like to look at my divorce as evidence that WE both did a lousy job with the relationship skills in the past.

Good thing is I can learn from the experience, and grow, so next time around I'll get it right. I have learned so much, from being here, reading books, and working with a counselor. It's been great for me.

Letting go of the one you love is very difficult, there's likely to be some very dark days ahead for you. Try to remember to be patient, learn what you did that contributed to the failure of your M, and work on those things. Don't beat yourself up, you were not taught the skills you needed, most of us were not.

Keep posting here, it will help with the tough days ahead.

- TTM